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Post by imasoccerfreak on 20/09/12, 04:24 pm

Dear LHGCL league officials,

We get it...after 500 negative emails about the way your refs are being treated... WE GET IT. We've watched the video, and we're going to the "be nice to refs" class. We understand that they are very tender-hearted and it's easy to hurt their feelings. Now quit freakin' whining about it in weekly emails and just start throwing people out. They'll get the picture a whole lot faster, and people might actually stop harassing them. All these emails just result in eye rolling and parents hitting "delete" without even looking at it, because we get the same crap every week. You remind me of parents who count when their kid misbehaves, but there is no end number at which consequences are enforced. Stop counting and start acting! Jeez!

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Post by Bionic Cat on 20/09/12, 05:10 pm

Meow.
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Post by Type 1 left-footer on 20/09/12, 07:36 pm

imasoccerfreak wrote:Dear LHGCL league officials,

We get it...after 500 negative emails about the way your refs are being treated... WE GET IT. We've watched the video, and we're going to the "be nice to refs" class. We understand that they are very tender-hearted and it's easy to hurt their feelings. Now quit freakin' whining about it in weekly emails and just start throwing people out. They'll get the picture a whole lot faster, and people might actually stop harassing them. All these emails just result in eye rolling and parents hitting "delete" without even looking at it, because we get the same crap every week. You remind me of parents who count when their kid misbehaves, but there is no end number at which consequences are enforced. Stop counting and start acting! Jeez!

I agree. Use the power!
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Post by Joe scafone on 20/09/12, 07:40 pm


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Post by oldboot on 20/09/12, 08:02 pm

Both leagues are actually using the same refs
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Post by Flamethrower on 21/09/12, 12:06 am

This goes so much further than the league will ever get. The parents will not stop abusing, yelling, etc the referees no matter the league rule of " zero tolerence"
Both Lake and Chamber face the same problem.. The parents go out of control because of the league structure- Ex. promotion relegation at the U11 - U14 level. Those parents are new to the structure and since the classic leagues say its the "proper way" They believe it. It is idiotic and not the way the rest of the soccer world ( which are ions ahead of us in development) run things..
The NFL league officials are trying to pursue this new " safety rule" when hitting other players but are locking out their professional refereees. Our classic leagues pretty much do the same thing to local soccer refs. They put them in a enviroment where they can never make the right call based o nthe parents expectations of advancing or being de-moted at such a young age.

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Post by Hook It on 21/09/12, 08:19 am

Flamethrower wrote:This goes so much further than the league will ever get. The parents will not stop abusing, yelling, etc the referees no matter the league rule of " zero tolerence"
Both Lake and Chamber face the same problem.. The parents go out of control because of the league structure- Ex. promotion relegation at the U11 - U14 level. Those parents are new to the structure and since the classic leagues say its the "proper way" They believe it. It is idiotic and not the way the rest of the soccer world ( which are ions ahead of us in development) run things..
The NFL league officials are trying to pursue this new " safety rule" when hitting other players but are locking out their professional refereees. Our classic leagues pretty much do the same thing to local soccer refs. They put them in a enviroment where they can never make the right call based o nthe parents expectations of advancing or being de-moted at such a young age.

Well summarized and in such a non-violent way! I work in my office with a LH ref and this has been a many water cooler discussions. Since the league will never be able to educate the parents (mandatory powerpoint - HaHa) - He feels that the league should work with the refs more on this.

Arrow Put more seasoned refs in the U11-U12 bracket to "train" the parents through actions of their first 1-2 years in select.... it would take time, but if a more consistent level of calls were made on the field and controlling the sidelines was a better set precident, who knows it is possible to improve things (but not probabale).... I think I am putting myself to sleep Sleep

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Post by soccersounder on 21/09/12, 09:10 am

imasoccerfreak wrote:Dear LHGCL league officials,

We get it...after 500 negative emails about the way your refs are being treated... WE GET IT. We've watched the video, and we're going to the "be nice to refs" class. We understand that they are very tender-hearted and it's easy to hurt their feelings. Now quit freakin' whining about it in weekly emails and just start throwing people out. They'll get the picture a whole lot faster, and people might actually stop harassing them. All these emails just result in eye rolling and parents hitting "delete" without even looking at it, because we get the same crap every week. You remind me of parents who count when their kid misbehaves, but there is no end number at which consequences are enforced. Stop counting and start acting! Jeez!

The newest best post ever
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Post by soccer02mom11 on 21/09/12, 10:13 am

imasoccerfreak wrote:Dear LHGCL league officials,

We get it...after 500 negative emails about the way your refs are being treated... WE GET IT. We've watched the video, and we're going to the "be nice to refs" class. We understand that they are very tender-hearted and it's easy to hurt their feelings. Now quit freakin' whining about it in weekly emails and just start throwing people out. They'll get the picture a whole lot faster, and people might actually stop harassing them. All these emails just result in eye rolling and parents hitting "delete" without even looking at it, because we get the same crap every week. You remind me of parents who count when their kid misbehaves, but there is no end number at which consequences are enforced. Stop counting and start acting! Jeez!

cheers

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Post by sphericalpolyhedron on 21/09/12, 10:20 am

Hey you soccer crazies. I have a totatlly unrelated question.

When do Select Level Soccer coaches typically get paid? At the beginning of the month, for the month they are going to be coaching? Or, at the end of the month for the month they have coached.

Seeems counter intuitive to pay someone for something they haven't done yet.

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Post by Lawnboy on 21/09/12, 10:53 am

Flamethrower wrote:This goes so much further than the league will ever get. The parents will not stop abusing, yelling, etc the referees no matter the league rule of " zero tolerence"
Both Lake and Chamber face the same problem.. The parents go out of control because of the league structure- Ex. promotion relegation at the U11 - U14 level. Those parents are new to the structure and since the classic leagues say its the "proper way" They believe it. It is idiotic and not the way the rest of the soccer world ( which are ions ahead of us in development) run things..
The NFL league officials are trying to pursue this new " safety rule" when hitting other players but are locking out their professional refereees. Our classic leagues pretty much do the same thing to local soccer refs. They put them in a enviroment where they can never make the right call based o nthe parents expectations of advancing or being de-moted at such a young age.

Are they ions ahead of us, or eons? Because if they are ions ahead, that's not very far.

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Post by 04QSoccerMom on 21/09/12, 11:07 am

Lawnboy wrote:
Flamethrower wrote:This goes so much further than the league will ever get. The parents will not stop abusing, yelling, etc the referees no matter the league rule of " zero tolerence"
Both Lake and Chamber face the same problem.. The parents go out of control because of the league structure- Ex. promotion relegation at the U11 - U14 level. Those parents are new to the structure and since the classic leagues say its the "proper way" They believe it. It is idiotic and not the way the rest of the soccer world ( which are ions ahead of us in development) run things..
The NFL league officials are trying to pursue this new " safety rule" when hitting other players but are locking out their professional refereees. Our classic leagues pretty much do the same thing to local soccer refs. They put them in a enviroment where they can never make the right call based o nthe parents expectations of advancing or being de-moted at such a young age.

Are they ions ahead of us, or eons? Because if they are ions ahead, that's not very far.
cheers
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Post by oldboot on 21/09/12, 11:10 am

Lawnboy wrote:
Flamethrower wrote:This goes so much further than the league will ever get. The parents will not stop abusing, yelling, etc the referees no matter the league rule of " zero tolerence"
Both Lake and Chamber face the same problem.. The parents go out of control because of the league structure- Ex. promotion relegation at the U11 - U14 level. Those parents are new to the structure and since the classic leagues say its the "proper way" They believe it. It is idiotic and not the way the rest of the soccer world ( which are ions ahead of us in development) run things..
The NFL league officials are trying to pursue this new " safety rule" when hitting other players but are locking out their professional refereees. Our classic leagues pretty much do the same thing to local soccer refs. They put them in a enviroment where they can never make the right call based o nthe parents expectations of advancing or being de-moted at such a young age.

Are they ions ahead of us, or eons? Because if they are ions ahead, that's not very far.

It depends on how many ions we are talking about.
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Post by Antipelagian on 21/09/12, 12:27 pm

I think the ref's should go to the dance recitals, band performances, volleyball games and chess matches of kids of LHGCL parents and scream and yell at those in charge...that way they can see how disruptive spectators are handled in other activities.

can't help but think of Jim belushi at the chess match on SNL years ago
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Post by dad98g on 21/09/12, 01:40 pm

first one who acts up and you send em packin...and make it be a 2 game suspension... along with the DD....... it would be great!!!!! have the field marshal follow em to their car write down the plate number... (oh dont forget to take their picture) then you could post the information on the entrance to all fields make sure the mug shot is a good one too..

I am all for loud foul mouthed, disrespectful parents be barred from the fields... they ruin the game!!!!

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Post by 10sDad on 21/09/12, 01:44 pm

So let me get this straight....if a player flops in the box, and the ref falls for the illegal simulation, and a game-deciding PK is awarded - LHGCL is expecting the "fans" of the victimized team to say it was a good call, be silent and tell the ref they did a great job?

Zero-tolerance? Paleeez. If a fan is over the line, sure - toss 'em - I will support you. But ANY sign of dissent with the call? Might as well remove the "competitive" moniker now and start distributing the exceptional players to weak teams - disband the LHGCL.

On every controversial referee call, there will be happy fans and upset fans, and both sides will be vocal - a dose of reality for you bleeding hearts. I hope these refs have no intention of ever reffing a sport with a crowd, like football, basketball, etc if they can't handle 40 or so people at a soccer game - they will probably be in tears by the end of the first quarter. Wussies. Yeah, I said it...

In fact, if we are gonna make rules so somebody's feelings don't get hurt...why not make a rule that a player can never be cut from a team? Why not tell coaches they are not allowed to tell a player they did something wrong? Why not stop keeping score so that nobody ever loses? Then everybody can go on in their happy little idiomic worlds, and nobody ever has their feelings hurt.
/rant
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Post by dad98g on 21/09/12, 02:00 pm

10sDad wrote:So let me get this straight....if a player flops in the box, and the ref falls for the illegal simulation, and a game-deciding PK is awarded - LHGCL is expecting the "fans" of the victimized team to say it was a good call, be silent and tell the ref they did a great job?

Zero-tolerance? Paleeez. If a fan is over the line, sure - toss 'em - I will support you. But ANY sign of dissent with the call? Might as well remove the "competitive" moniker now and start distributing the exceptional players to weak teams - disband the LHGCL.

On every controversial referee call, there will be happy fans and upset fans, and both sides will be vocal - a dose of reality for you bleeding hearts. I hope these refs have no intention of ever reffing a sport with a crowd, like football, basketball, etc if they can't handle 40 or so people at a soccer game - they will probably be in tears by the end of the first quarter. Wussies. Yeah, I said it...

In fact, if we are gonna make rules so somebody's feelings don't get hurt...why not make a rule that a player can never be cut from a team? Why not tell coaches they are not allowed to tell a player they did something wrong? Why not stop keeping score so that nobody ever loses? Then everybody can go on in their happy little idiomic worlds, and nobody ever has their feelings hurt.
/rant


and I bet that would be the first parent to go.........
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Post by 02Dad on 21/09/12, 02:06 pm

10sDad wrote:So let me get this straight....if a player flops in the box, and the ref falls for the illegal simulation, and a game-deciding PK is awarded - LHGCL is expecting the "fans" of the victimized team to say it was a good call, be silent and tell the ref they did a great job?

Zero-tolerance? Paleeez. If a fan is over the line, sure - toss 'em - I will support you. But ANY sign of dissent with the call? Might as well remove the "competitive" moniker now and start distributing the exceptional players to weak teams - disband the LHGCL.

On every controversial referee call, there will be happy fans and upset fans, and both sides will be vocal - a dose of reality for you bleeding hearts. I hope these refs have no intention of ever reffing a sport with a crowd, like football, basketball, etc if they can't handle 40 or so people at a soccer game - they will probably be in tears by the end of the first quarter. Wussies. Yeah, I said it...

In fact, if we are gonna make rules so somebody's feelings don't get hurt...why not make a rule that a player can never be cut from a team? Why not tell coaches they are not allowed to tell a player they did something wrong? Why not stop keeping score so that nobody ever loses? Then everybody can go on in their happy little idiomic worlds, and nobody ever has their feelings hurt.
/rant

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Post by JeffM on 21/09/12, 02:19 pm

10sDad wrote:So let me get this straight....if a player flops in the box, and the ref falls for the illegal simulation, and a game-deciding PK is awarded - LHGCL is expecting the "fans" of the victimized team to say it was a good call, be silent and tell the ref they did a great job?

Zero-tolerance? Paleeez. If a fan is over the line, sure - toss 'em - I will support you. But ANY sign of dissent with the call? Might as well remove the "competitive" moniker now and start distributing the exceptional players to weak teams - disband the LHGCL.

On every controversial referee call, there will be happy fans and upset fans, and both sides will be vocal - a dose of reality for you bleeding hearts. I hope these refs have no intention of ever reffing a sport with a crowd, like football, basketball, etc if they can't handle 40 or so people at a soccer game - they will probably be in tears by the end of the first quarter. Wussies. Yeah, I said it...

In fact, if we are gonna make rules so somebody's feelings don't get hurt...why not make a rule that a player can never be cut from a team? Why not tell coaches they are not allowed to tell a player they did something wrong? Why not stop keeping score so that nobody ever loses? Then everybody can go on in their happy little idiomic worlds, and nobody ever has their feelings hurt.
/rant

The difference in those sports (at least back in the day when I played them) was that the crowds usually had a clue about the rules of the sport, (or sense enough to know they didn't have a clue) and didn't get vocal unless it was truly a bad call. The problem with LHGCL soccer seems to be that there are too many jackasses that don't have a clue, but think they do. The only thing I have been to that has rivaled it was an NAIA women's college basketball game, and it was the same problem - people that didn't know jack about the sport, and thinking they did.

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Post by 10sDad on 21/09/12, 02:21 pm

02Dad wrote:
10sDad wrote:So let me get this straight....if a player flops in the box, and the ref falls for the illegal simulation, and a game-deciding PK is awarded - LHGCL is expecting the "fans" of the victimized team to say it was a good call, be silent and tell the ref they did a great job?

Zero-tolerance? Paleeez. If a fan is over the line, sure - toss 'em - I will support you. But ANY sign of dissent with the call? Might as well remove the "competitive" moniker now and start distributing the exceptional players to weak teams - disband the LHGCL.

On every controversial referee call, there will be happy fans and upset fans, and both sides will be vocal - a dose of reality for you bleeding hearts. I hope these refs have no intention of ever reffing a sport with a crowd, like football, basketball, etc if they can't handle 40 or so people at a soccer game - they will probably be in tears by the end of the first quarter. Wussies. Yeah, I said it...

In fact, if we are gonna make rules so somebody's feelings don't get hurt...why not make a rule that a player can never be cut from a team? Why not tell coaches they are not allowed to tell a player they did something wrong? Why not stop keeping score so that nobody ever loses? Then everybody can go on in their happy little idiomic worlds, and nobody ever has their feelings hurt.
/rant

jackass
It's OK...really. I have been called worse, sometimes deservedly so. But I can take it. But I bet if you said that on the sideline now, you would be thown out and fined...just sayin.
And FYI...I have been a "fan" at over 400 classic league games and have never been tossed in case you were wondering. But...I was cautioned once for loudly informing a ref that there is indeed no offside on a throw in...he stood by his offside call anyway, even though the team I was supporting scored a goal off the throw. So, you can say I didn't get any satisfaction for yelling, but I am sure the ref felt like a dufus when the game was over and he looked it up in his LOTG book. Gee....I hope I didn't hurt his feelings.... Wink
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Post by Guest on 21/09/12, 03:23 pm

The league should train and hire MMA fighters to officiate games. Then make a rule that anyone who wants to yell at the ref can do so as long as they do it in his face. Problem solved.

Seriously, though, I've posted this before: Pay the refs more. Double their pay. You'll get knowledgeable, fit soccer players who know the game, blow far fewer calls, and can speak English. They'll work their a$$eS off because they like the pay. And if they are no good, fire them and hire someone else who is waiting to take their jobs. You get what you pay for, and ref pay sucks. Therefore...

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Post by imasoccerfreak on 21/09/12, 03:44 pm

Bravo, Xara! I hardly ever agree with your posts, but this one is a winner. I would be willing to pay a little more in league fees to support this idea.

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Post by 4-4-2-Diamond on 21/09/12, 08:45 pm

I doubt paying the refs more is the answer. The refs you really want on your games aren't doing it for the money anyway.

IMO a good number of officials doing boys classic league are a cut above LH refs in professionalism, game management, fitness, etc. I see mentors and assessors FREQUENTLY interacting with officials on the boys side, and that's probably a big reason refs want to improve themselves over there.

The pay for LH refs is EXACTLY the same as boys classic league refs, and I doubt doubling pay is going make the go getter type refs choose LH when more challenging assignments are available where they get feedback needed to build their skills.

I think LH should put money into mentoring and doing regular assessments. Track referee performance and hold assignors accountable for getting good people on games. I also think LH should define the level of physicality they deem acceptable and make it part of referee development. Other areas around the country are physical, but it seems like too much of the LH fouling is dirty play away from the ball or after the play. I've seen enough games now to realize it has become part of the culture.

And while you're focusing on referee development, get the other two ingredients in this recipe under control - namely the abusive coaches and parents. The same few coaches routinely belligerent towards officials, opposing parents and players, along with the same few circus sidelines, cause the majority of problems that end up infecting players on the field. I'm sure LH knows who they are, but I agree with OP the blustering emails need real consequences following behind them.

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Post by Guest on 21/09/12, 10:48 pm

4-4-2-Diamond wrote:I doubt paying the refs more is the answer. The refs you really want on your games aren't doing it for the money anyway.

IMO a good number of officials doing boys classic league are a cut above LH refs in professionalism, game management, fitness, etc. I see mentors and assessors FREQUENTLY interacting with officials on the boys side, and that's probably a big reason refs want to improve themselves over there.

The pay for LH refs is EXACTLY the same as boys classic league refs, and I doubt doubling pay is going make the go getter type refs choose LH when more challenging assignments are available where they get feedback needed to build their skills.

I think LH should put money into mentoring and doing regular assessments. Track referee performance and hold assignors accountable for getting good people on games. I also think LH should define the level of physicality they deem acceptable and make it part of referee development. Other areas around the country are physical, but it seems like too much of the LH fouling is dirty play away from the ball or after the play. I've seen enough games now to realize it has become part of the culture.

And while you're focusing on referee development, get the other two ingredients in this recipe under control - namely the abusive coaches and parents. The same few coaches routinely belligerent towards officials, opposing parents and players, along with the same few circus sidelines, cause the majority of problems that end up infecting players on the field. I'm sure LH knows who they are, but I agree with OP the blustering emails need real consequences following behind them.

I disagree on multiple levels. Sure, the refs you would ideally want aren't doing it for the money. How could they be? The pay SUCKS and so does the job! But if there were better pay, more qualified people would be willing to overlook the bad aspects of the position because the pay makes it worthwhile.

More money into mentoring and assessments? Yeah, that has worked great for our school teachers, too. People love being told they need to improve their efforts in doing a job that blows for lousy pay. Seems like I once heard that ref turnover in the first few months after licensing was over 50%. That's terrible. Money buys retention; assessments and oversight breed contempt.

As for the abusive coaches and parents, that's an easy one. First, better refs will work harder to keep their jobs and make better calls. Also, good refs don't put up with sideline stupidity. They know how to shut up the idiots. Those that don't probably are crappy refs and will get fired anyway. Again, you get what you pay for. It's true for doctors, attorneys, contractors, and anyone else you hire. Refs are not an exception.

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Post by 4-4-2-Diamond on 22/09/12, 07:41 am

Xara wrote:
I disagree on multiple levels. Sure, the refs you would ideally want aren't doing it for the money. How could they be? The pay SUCKS and so does the job! But if there were better pay, more qualified people would be willing to overlook the bad aspects of the position because the pay makes it worthwhile.

That's the thing. It's not a crappy job if you're doing it out of your love of the game. Any money you get at all is a bonus perk if you truly enjoy engaging in the game from a whole different vantage point than you did as a player, coach or spectator. The only "qualification" needed is a love of the game and willingness to learn how to apply its rules. Throwing money at it is just casting a wider net to pick up more people who think it's a crappy job but might be more inclined to stomach it for grocery money.

Xara wrote:
More money into mentoring and assessments? Yeah, that has worked great for our school teachers, too. People love being told they need to improve their efforts in doing a job that blows for lousy pay. Seems like I once heard that ref turnover in the first few months after licensing was over 50%. That's terrible. Money buys retention; assessments and oversight breed contempt.
You have to evaluate performance to improve performance. That applies to anything. I'm not talking about "official", rigid assessments for those looking for upgrades, I'm talking about routine performance input. They can be mentors, friendly assessments, weekly reviews, whatever. Has to be something. Show me any system in any endeavor that runs well without oversight.

Xara wrote:As for the abusive coaches and parents, that's an easy one. First, better refs will work harder to keep their jobs and make better calls. Also, good refs don't put up with sideline stupidity. They know how to shut up the idiots. Those that don't probably are crappy refs and will get fired anyway. Again, you get what you pay for. It's true for doctors, attorneys, contractors, and anyone else you hire. Refs are not an exception.

You're comparing PROFESSIONALS to people who are largely volunteers who get a nominal pay stipend. Very few refs are professionals paying their bills with officiating. You could quadruple the ref pay and it's still going to amount to no more than pocket change for most people with a professional career. And you could put Howard Webb on a U11 lake highlands game, pay him $5,000 per game and the out of control parents are still going to act up over every call and the abusive coaches are going chirp in his ear all game.

The officiating is not the root cause of the issues in LH. Refs didn't cause a well known coach to cuss the 11 year olds on the opposing team last spring after they just handed his team their first loss in a while. Refs didn't cause a dad to try to choke out another dad from his own team after they lost that same weekend. Refs didn't make those parents run out on the field last week.

Again, if ref pay was the culprit, you need to justify why boys classic league officiating is appreciably better while paying their refs the exact same amount for every age group. LH needs to put protecting our daughters as the top priority, and I'm sure they've figured out the refs are only a small cog in this machine.

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