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Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled

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Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled Empty Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled

Post by 10sDad on 26/02/13, 09:20 am

Its tuesday, and we have 4 days to "discuss" soccer before this weekends games...so I thought I would instigate a conversation... Evil or Very Mad

At academy age, it appears that BFA (Big/Fast/Aggressive) wins over smaller skill every time.

Sure, a whole team full of extremely skilled small players can win against a team with one or two BFA's - but it will be a hard fought game with lots of bruises - but the whole team needs to be extremely skilled to overcome only a few BFA players.

Every team and/or coach is guilty of picking up that BFA player whenever the chance presents itself. Who wouldn't? It is such an overcoming advantage at this age.

In the rare case that a single BFA is also very skilled, the team does well....right up to the point where the "big, fast girl" gets injured or gets recruited to another club.

I am definitely NOT in favor of tightening the number of fouls called or anything - clean is clean, and well...sorry you are small...suck it up or find a different sport. Soccer is a physical sport, and you will get hit, and probably hurt.

What I think bothers me, is that some players that are naturally talented in soccer and really have potential to go on to much higher levels, end up either held back or giving up the game at the younger ages due to the fact that the size differential puts the smaller skilled player at a significant disadvantage during the formative years. The powerhouse teams stack themselves with big, fast athletes in the interest of winning (who can blame them?), and the smaller skilled players fall to the wayside or wallow in D2/PPL as they wait to grow.

When they get past 13 or so, it evens out more, but the BFA girl has been receiving D1 coaching and competition, while the smaller skilled players have not. Is that a disadvantage?

Mia was not a big girl...but very skilled. Abby is a total BFA girl. Both are awesome players. Has the pendulum moved too much toward the Abby model and too far away from the Mia model?

Thoughts?
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Post by Guest on 26/02/13, 09:36 am

10sDad wrote:Its tuesday, and we have 4 days to "discuss" soccer before this weekends games...so I thought I would instigate a conversation... Evil or Very Mad

At academy age, it appears that BFA (Big/Fast/Aggressive) wins over smaller skill every time.

Sure, a whole team full of extremely skilled small players can win against a team with one or two BFA's - but it will be a hard fought game with lots of bruises - but the whole team needs to be extremely skilled to overcome only a few BFA players.

Every team and/or coach is guilty of picking up that BFA player whenever the chance presents itself. Who wouldn't? It is such an overcoming advantage at this age.

In the rare case that a single BFA is also very skilled, the team does well....right up to the point where the "big, fast girl" gets injured or gets recruited to another club.

I am definitely NOT in favor of tightening the number of fouls called or anything - clean is clean, and well...sorry you are small...suck it up or find a different sport. Soccer is a physical sport, and you will get hit, and probably hurt.

What I think bothers me, is that some players that are naturally talented in soccer and really have potential to go on to much higher levels, end up either held back or giving up the game at the younger ages due to the fact that the size differential puts the smaller skilled player at a significant disadvantage during the formative years. The powerhouse teams stack themselves with big, fast athletes in the interest of winning (who can blame them?), and the smaller skilled players fall to the wayside or wallow in D2/PPL as they wait to grow.

When they get past 13 or so, it evens out more, but the BFA girl has been receiving D1 coaching and competition, while the smaller skilled players have not. Is that a disadvantage?

Mia was not a big girl...but very skilled. Abby is a total BFA girl. Both are awesome players. Has the pendulum moved too much toward the Abby model and too far away from the Mia model?

Thoughts?

Always need the BFA girl somewhere in your team, you need some steel. If you look at the pro's the successful teams are all skill-based with a couple of tough players to add that edge. I do believe that the majority of NTX coaches stack their teams with big athletes and its the skillful player that misses out.

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Post by Guest on 26/02/13, 10:00 am

My observation is that while "B" is certainly an important quality to possess, "FA" is really the common denominator of all of the top teams, especially when playing 11v11 on large fields starting at U10 or earlier. Plenty of outstanding smaller players out there on top NTX teams, with all of them being fast and unafraid to get after it.

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Post by go99 on 26/02/13, 10:16 am

if you want to win now BFA wins period. Great if you can get skill in there too but at a young age you just can't win with skill and passing. The kids aren't good enough and make too many errors. The first thing that needs to change is the officiating. If they called fouls as the are it would limit the A and to some degree B. The downside is kids here don't learn the art of defending and are easily baited into fouls
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Post by JeffM on 26/02/13, 10:18 am

10sDad wrote:Its tuesday, and we have 4 days to "discuss" soccer before this weekends games...so I thought I would instigate a conversation... Evil or Very Mad

At academy age, it appears that BFA (Big/Fast/Aggressive) wins over smaller skill every time.

Sure, a whole team full of extremely skilled small players can win against a team with one or two BFA's - but it will be a hard fought game with lots of bruises - but the whole team needs to be extremely skilled to overcome only a few BFA players.

Every team and/or coach is guilty of picking up that BFA player whenever the chance presents itself. Who wouldn't? It is such an overcoming advantage at this age.

In the rare case that a single BFA is also very skilled, the team does well....right up to the point where the "big, fast girl" gets injured or gets recruited to another club.

I am definitely NOT in favor of tightening the number of fouls called or anything - clean is clean, and well...sorry you are small...suck it up or find a different sport. Soccer is a physical sport, and you will get hit, and probably hurt.
What I think bothers me, is that some players that are naturally talented in soccer and really have potential to go on to much higher levels, end up either held back or giving up the game at the younger ages due to the fact that the size differential puts the smaller skilled player at a significant disadvantage during the formative years. The powerhouse teams stack themselves with big, fast athletes in the interest of winning (who can blame them?), and the smaller skilled players fall to the wayside or wallow in D2/PPL as they wait to grow.

When they get past 13 or so, it evens out more, but the BFA girl has been receiving D1 coaching and competition, while the smaller skilled players have not. Is that a disadvantage?

Mia was not a big girl...but very skilled. Abby is a total BFA girl. Both are awesome players. Has the pendulum moved too much toward the Abby model and too far away from the Mia model?

Thoughts?

The problem is, if you are B, any time you make contact the whistle blows, and if you are trying to not get calls, the A usually gets taken out of you, and if you don't have F, your just done as a soccer player. (ask my DD) Except in high school. That gets called very differently, at least it has this year.

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Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled Empty Re: Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled

Post by go99 on 26/02/13, 10:25 am

I do see big girls get less aggressive because of fouls. One of the things we have to consider that I don't see often is you do have to make a play on the ball. Smashing into someone and knocking them off the ball is actually a foul. I don't see it done well very often and I have never seen it coached. The art of defending. I do admit having a smaller DD that she can be almost hyper A and do it with reckless abandon and not get called for the foul. as far as fast goes, quickness and quick thought is more important than overall speed.
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Post by Gunners on 26/02/13, 10:26 am

Generally speaking...

Fast, Skilled, Big/Aggressive (small kids can mitigate size disparity if aggressive enough).

One of three = avg at best
Two of the three = minimum to play at top level
Three of three = sky is the limit

This is really more relative to the younger age groups. Hard work also factors in as kids age, but since (for the most part) two of three aspects can't be learned, hard work will only take you so far if you lack two of the three aspects above.

As always, IMO.

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Post by go99 on 26/02/13, 10:30 am

nice both of my kids have all 3. BB even has the hard work, focus, dedication one. DD seems to come and go on the hardwork part but she passes even him on the aggression
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Post by maddad02 on 26/02/13, 10:32 am

A little food for thought...

Arguably the three greatest to ever play the game:
Pele - 5'8"
Messi - 5'7"
Maradona - 5'5"

It's only my opinion, but I've always maintained that whether big or small, short or tall, it's the size of a child's heart that ultimately guides them to success.
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Post by Guest on 26/02/13, 10:34 am

The problem is, if you are B, any time you make contact the whistle blows

this drives me nuts, because someone falls down, IT IS NOT ALWAYS A FOUL. Soccer is a contact sport. contesting for the ball is part of the game.

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Post by Guest on 26/02/13, 10:36 am

maddad02 wrote:A little food for thought...

Arguably the three greatest to ever play the game:
Pele - 5'8"
Messi - 5'7"
Maradona - 5'5"

It's only my opinion, but I've always maintained that whether big or small, short or tall, it's the size of a child's heart that ultimately guides them to success.

I couldn't agree more.

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Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled Empty Re: Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled

Post by go99 on 26/02/13, 10:41 am

silentparent wrote:The problem is, if you are B, any time you make contact the whistle blows

this drives me nuts, because someone falls down, IT IS NOT ALWAYS A FOUL. Soccer is a contact sport. contesting for the ball is part of the game.

Soccer is not as big of a contact sport as some think. A play must be made on the ball. Dropping a should and knocking a player off the ball can be called in "real" soccer.

Height is not much of a factor in soccer. It takes you further away from the ball, raises your center of gravity, and lengthens your stride and the only advantadge it provides is when heading
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Post by Guest on 26/02/13, 10:42 am

My opinion is that the player at a earlier age that may not possess the size and speed must adapt their style of play that focuses more on technique, possession,and vision. The ability to process the game when players are bigger and faster not relying so much on that you are just the better athlete all the time. Now with that said, you must have some athletic abilities.

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Post by go99 on 26/02/13, 10:44 am

it is very touigh for that type of player in NTX. You are in an enviornment that relies on speed to run down kicked balls and strength to smash into things. No protection from officials and coaches that only look for size and speed. For many coaches here we could just have an NFL style combine to chose players. Just give me the 40 times
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Post by Guest on 26/02/13, 10:49 am

Having gone through academy with my DD. I will tell you to stay the course continue to train and the game will reward you for your hard work.

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Post by Guest on 26/02/13, 10:50 am

go99 wrote:
silentparent wrote:The problem is, if you are B, any time you make contact the whistle blows

this drives me nuts, because someone falls down, IT IS NOT ALWAYS A FOUL. Soccer is a contact sport. contesting for the ball is part of the game.

Soccer is not as big of a contact sport as some think. A play must be made on the ball. Dropping a should and knocking a player off the ball can be called in "real" soccer.

Height is not much of a factor in soccer. It takes you further away from the ball, raises your center of gravity, and lengthens your stride and the only advantadge it provides is when heading

no one said this is rugby. There is contact and calling a foul because suzy went flying through the air should not be automatic....

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Post by JeffM on 26/02/13, 11:16 am

go99 wrote:
silentparent wrote:The problem is, if you are B, any time you make contact the whistle blows

this drives me nuts, because someone falls down, IT IS NOT ALWAYS A FOUL. Soccer is a contact sport. contesting for the ball is part of the game.

Soccer is not as big of a contact sport as some think. A play must be made on the ball. Dropping a should and knocking a player off the ball can be called in "real" soccer.

Height is not much of a factor in soccer. It takes you further away from the ball, raises your center of gravity, and lengthens your stride and the only advantadge it provides is when heading

There are some refs that need that reinforced, and the converse. Can't tell you how many times the DD got there first, had control of the ball, and the peanut that ran headlong into her back bounced off. Whistle blew. Guess which team had a free kick.

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Post by go99 on 26/02/13, 11:16 am

if suzy was knocked thru the air it was probably a foul. But of course the amount of allowed contact is really up to the ref. Here is one of the best descriptions I have seen but thru the rules the things to consider are playing distance, violent nature, attempt at ball, and angle of approach. In the end it is a judgement call from the ref and players must learn to read the game to determine how much contact is being allowed and play accordingly

A fair charge is a shoulder-to-shoulder attempt to knock an opponent off the ball which is performed with at least one foot on the ground, with the arms in close to the body, and with the ball close enough to both that it can be played by either; what we call 'playing distance'. Clearly, a fair charge meeting these criteria can result in one of the players falling down - the 'big kid, little kid' problem, but if the charge is truly fair, this doesn’t matter and no foul should be called
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Post by 10sDad on 26/02/13, 11:17 am

I have been on both sides. One kid was big and got called for non-fouls, and one kid that is small and aggressive that counts her bruises after each game. (she has been kicked off the pitch twice for bleeding, after unsuccessfully trying to hide it from the ref). I have seen girls totally beat up boys without consequence, but if the boys so much as breath on the girl, they get called for a foul.

I actually think the problem is with the referees. Good folks that try their hardest (most do anyway), but they let their own "perception of fairness" cloud their judgement as to whether calls were actually fouls. When a big player collides with a smaller player - the smaller player is going flying...but was it illegal contact? When a smaller player uses an elbow, or extends an arm on a bigger player, it may not have much effect, but it is a foul. When girls and boys play against each other, they should be viewed by the ref as a-sexual - they cannot allow chivalry to affect the way they call the game.
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Post by Anarchy on 26/02/13, 11:19 am

At Academy age 2-3 BFA girls and you are set for the most part. Can we create a division for BFA teams and let them duke it out alone??lol Frustrating to see the smaller skilled players just run over physically while actually trying to play the game.

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Post by Guest on 26/02/13, 11:20 am

go99 wrote:if suzy was knocked thru the air it was probably a foul. But of course the amount of allowed contact is really up to the ref. Here is one of the best descriptions I have seen but thru the rules the things to consider are playing distance, violent nature, attempt at ball, and angle of approach. In the end it is a judgement call from the ref and players must learn to read the game to determine how much contact is being allowed and play accordingly

A fair charge is a shoulder-to-shoulder attempt to knock an opponent off the ball which is performed with at least one foot on the ground, with the arms in close to the body, and with the ball close enough to both that it can be played by either; what we call 'playing distance'. Clearly, a fair charge meeting these criteria can result in one of the players falling down - the 'big kid, little kid' problem, but if the charge is truly fair, this doesn’t matter and no foul should be called

And once again, if suzy is contesting the ball at 50 lbs and mary weighs 90 and suzy flies through the air, NO FOUL, despite what the parents think....

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Post by go99 on 26/02/13, 11:26 am

ther is no question big kids get more fouls called on them. However we played a team that the coach made the same excuse for a girl. She get fouls called because she is big. She had fouls called because she was a borderline dirty and out of control player using her size to try and bully a game and no adult had taught her any better. There were 2 handed shoves in the back, trips from behind, running over players who no longer had the ball. I had never seen a player acumulate so many fouls so quickly. And from listening to the coaches post game speech it was clear that not one adult had helped this poor girl learn the proper way to play. She is just a little girl doing the best she can and being failed by the adult around her.

To the big girls I say play hard, aggressive and learn to live with the fouls. If you have nice clean play it will rarely be enough to get you thrown from the game (my dd is tiny and she is good for at least 2 fouls a game). Also learn that the closer you get to your own goal the less aggressive you must become. A foul isn't the worst thing in the world and if you havn't had any called you probably aren't playing hard enough. To the parents I say stop screaming at a child because she got a foul. She is a kid and just learning and competing the best she can.
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Post by go99 on 26/02/13, 11:33 am

silentparent wrote:
go99 wrote:if suzy was knocked thru the air it was probably a foul. But of course the amount of allowed contact is really up to the ref. Here is one of the best descriptions I have seen but thru the rules the things to consider are playing distance, violent nature, attempt at ball, and angle of approach. In the end it is a judgement call from the ref and players must learn to read the game to determine how much contact is being allowed and play accordingly

A fair charge is a shoulder-to-shoulder attempt to knock an opponent off the ball which is performed with at least one foot on the ground, with the arms in close to the body, and with the ball close enough to both that it can be played by either; what we call 'playing distance'. Clearly, a fair charge meeting these criteria can result in one of the players falling down - the 'big kid, little kid' problem, but if the charge is truly fair, this doesn’t matter and no foul should be called

And once again, if suzy is contesting the ball at 50 lbs and mary weighs 90 and suzy flies through the air, NO FOUL, despite what the parents think....

yes no foul. as long as she is playing distance to the ball. Of course if you are a smaller player not only learn how to keep your body between the defender and ball so they can't get playing distance but also learn to move the ball away so that when you take the bump and go flying there was no ball and you can collect the foul.
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Post by Guest on 26/02/13, 11:33 am

It's the FSA girls that ultimately excell - fast, skilled, and aggressive - in that order. Size gets very watered down in the teenage years as females tend to peak out in height but grow outward in proportions. The Amazonian types that do reach into the 6 feet plus range usually do not end up as soccer players; they will be on the basketball or volleyball teams. Sure, all other things being equal, a girl that is BFSA is the ultimate soccer competitor... but those are extremely rare after age 14. Being big is not always an advantage in soccer since it virtually always drags on a player's speed, and even basic good defensive technique can stop the taller player. Skill can be similarly thwarted, especially when a well-timed hit is regularly thrown in. Aggressiveness is all good and fine but select soccer is loaded with such players. Speed? Speed is paramount. A player can do what she can to adjust for the speed of an opponent, but she can't trump it unless equally fast. Speed is king, especially once the vertical growth becomes horizontal.

Not that any of this is such a huge (pun intended) issue anyway. One can dwell on his or her own daughter's strengths and weaknesses until she's 18 and packing up to go to college. What is the best case end result? That she'll get a college scholarship that won't come close to paying back the time and money spent on select soccer? That she'll have a full-time job playing in college, regularly miss classes, constantly be injured, and likely date her teammates? Or what if she does go onto play in the Olympics? Then what? Sure, it makes for great memories, but the average American could maybe name 3 women who have ever played soccer in the Olympics/WNT. After that, even these athletes have to get real jobs. I just don't get the hyper focus of constantly searching for that smallest detail that may (but probably will not) make your your little science experiment the next great athlete of the world. If that's the goal, get the kids on steroids and be done with it. Statistics show that the majority will either quit the sport or get around $3000 if they do play in college.

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Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled Empty Re: Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled

Post by 10sDad on 26/02/13, 11:48 am

Xara wrote:It's the FSA girls that ultimately excell - fast, skilled, and aggressive - in that order. Size gets very watered down in the teenage years as females tend to peak out in height but grow outward in proportions. The Amazonian types that do reach into the 6 feet plus range usually do not end up as soccer players; they will be on the basketball or volleyball teams. Sure, all other things being equal, a girl that is BFSA is the ultimate soccer competitor... but those are extremely rare after age 14. Being big is not always an advantage in soccer since it virtually always drags on a player's speed, and even basic good defensive technique can stop the taller player. Skill can be similarly thwarted, especially when a well-timed hit is regularly thrown in. Aggressiveness is all good and fine but select soccer is loaded with such players. Speed? Speed is paramount. A player can do what she can to adjust for the speed of an opponent, but she can't trump it unless equally fast. Speed is king, especially once the vertical growth becomes horizontal.

Not that any of this is such a huge (pun intended) issue anyway. One can dwell on his or her own daughter's strengths and weaknesses until she's 18 and packing up to go to college. What is the best case end result? That she'll get a college scholarship that won't come close to paying back the time and money spent on select soccer? That she'll have a full-time job playing in college, regularly miss classes, constantly be injured, and likely date her teammates? Or what if she does go onto play in the Olympics? Then what? Sure, it makes for great memories, but the average American could maybe name 3 women who have ever played soccer in the Olympics/WNT. After that, even these athletes have to get real jobs. I just don't get the hyper focus of constantly searching for that smallest detail that may (but probably will not) make your your little science experiment the next great athlete of the world. If that's the goal, get the kids on steroids and be done with it. Statistics show that the majority will either quit the sport or get around $3000 if they do play in college.
Xara - I agree, and I think you kind of emphasized my point. The "Big" really doesn't matter after age 13 or so...skill becomes paramount. However, in academy and the first few years of LHGCL, big is paramount. When the "big" leaves, and the "skill" comes back, how many years have the "skill" been without top-notch coaching or competition? Did the next Mia decide to go play another sport because she is "too small" for top level soccer?
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Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled Empty Re: Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled

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