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What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Marvelousmar on 18/03/14, 09:53 am

I would have to agree that pulling straight numbers doesn't address the situation or the problem.  (If there it really is a problem)  There are lies darn lies and statistics.  We probably could get numbers of California vs Texas in Club games and find that our teams compete and play relatively the same or above them.  (See Boys Super Copa results for an example)  Some of the points are valid and there needs to be more of an emphasis on Development if we really want to improve North Texas soccer as a whole.  The game has changed over time and trust that the landscape of North Texas Soccer has changed over time.  I for one am pleased that there are so many folks playing the game at all levels.  Increasing the pool increases our chances in the state.  The key is creating a system that allows for talent identification and that progresses the talent appropriately.  It will be interesting to see how that process continues.

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Guest on 18/03/14, 09:56 am

Sweepers! There's another hate of mine for y'all!

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by NoFanOfDrama on 19/03/14, 09:32 pm

Marvelousmar wrote:I would have to agree that pulling straight numbers doesn't address the situation or the problem.  (If there it really is a problem)  There are lies darn lies and statistics.  We probably could get numbers of California vs Texas in Club games and find that our teams compete and play relatively the same or above them.  (See Boys Super Copa results for an example)  Some of the points are valid and there needs to be more of an emphasis on Development if we really want to improve North Texas soccer as a whole.  The game has changed over time and trust that the landscape of North Texas Soccer has changed over time.  I for one am pleased that there are so many folks playing the game at all levels.  Increasing the pool increases our chances in the state.  The key is creating a system that allows for talent identification and that progresses the talent appropriately.  It will be interesting to see how that process continues.

The problems identified and discussed on this thread have been there for years and each generation of parents comes to the stark realization that there are steps taken by NTS which have been far too progressive, yet NTS makes no effort to change things for the better.

With 6 total North Texas players spanning U15-18 girls national player pool soccer, there is clearly a better way to achieve greatness than how NTS is approaching the game.

I'm sure we have just as many raw-talent players as CO, CA, VA, but it is clear NTS players are playing in a system which does not offer the same experience and high caliber of play as other areas on a REGULAR basis. Sure we can take a team to LA or LV and win a tournament every now and then, but there is a difference between playing in a tournament and playing in a regular season. And when it comes time to national team selection, the lack of regular season play at a high level is what causes the disadvantage for our girls.
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Gunner9 on 19/03/14, 09:47 pm

So it begs the question 'what is being done differently in those areas that produce a higher percentage of top players'?. Anybody?

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Marvelousmar on 20/03/14, 08:12 am

The million dollar question with almost as many answers that lead to more questions. In a state as big as ours the question is how do associations, clubs, parents, and coaches work together to improve the overall product and if were looking at strictly numbers into the national pool. NoFan is correct we can put a team together to win a tourney but I guess the question on team success( a tourney win) or system wide success ( national pool members) is the question of goal and results. This is not an easy process because there are so many aspects that the selectors are looking for. From straight athletes our state has the quality and quantity. It’s what are we doing with those athletes to provide the opportunities to get into that pool if that’s the goal. I guess it comes back to organizing a plan and setting a target and determining a method of reaching that target. For example let’s say we have a 5 year goal of closing the gap on California in the national pool level. What must we do at each stage of the process to ensure that happens. What are the skills and attributes at each year do we want our youths learning in order to reach that goal. It has to be system wide so that we have a better chance of improving the product. In looking at systems that have made it work in other countries it has to be planned the goal has to be measurable and attainable. How does a country like the Netherlands end up with so many talented players on the international seen. Systems and culture. The American system and approach needs to be decided upon, then transferred to the coaches that extend it to the players. I’ll use the American Tackle football example. Let’s look at Southlake Carroll. From my understanding from the middle schools to the Pop Warner teams in the area they all learn the High-school system and a method of play that is taught at all levels. So when the opportunity to play at the next level occurs they are ready and have the core skills that the high-school is looking for. Just a thought may be wrong but I think that might be a start.
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by db10 on 20/03/14, 08:29 am

Results vs. Development.

Ask yourself why it matters so much if a girl plays on multiple teams for the same club. In the european model, or more specifically cerrtain country's in Europe, a player is played where the will be best developed. So a defender may be on a 'B' team but "guest" on the 'A' team during some games to develop aspects of their game and vice versa. When that happens here in Texas all the parents cry foul and complain that the club is trying to stack their team just to win. We have to know the difference if we are to move forward from both a parent and coach perspective.

Also, speaking of the Europeans, we all need to spend a bit more time learning about what's really going on over there before claiming that we should follow their model. You will see that the FA in England is in the same situation we are. Their development has stagnated and it's affecting their national team. Remember it's 1966 since they won a WC and what you see on the weekend in the EPL is not a result of English youth. It's a result of big $$$ and imported players from countries that do develop young talent such as Spain, The Netherlands, France and Germany.

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by oldboot on 20/03/14, 08:39 am

At the end of the day, what matters most is the individual coach or coaches who work with the DD. So, who are the coaches in NTX that do the most to develop skilled, "soccer smart" players?
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Arch Stanton on 20/03/14, 09:58 am

Here are a few for you. Have 2 daughters playing for one of the top clubs and paying your roughly $2,500 in dues (plus more if one is in for ECNL).Then be hit with weekly requests to "volunteer" to work at the upcoming club sponsored tournament which it is "mandatory" for each team to provide a certain number of volunteers. Follow that with emails stating it is "mandatory" for all players to attend the upcoming club professional team game to pack the seats (more $$$). Then realize that any tournament your daughter attends to play for said club, you get to pay $5 to park 1/2 mile from your field each game day. Benefits? Practices  you may get to schedule at grandiose fields behind professional stadium are usually populated with 7/8 other teams at the same time also trying to conduct practice so your practice area becomes the size of your typical backyard in Plano. You start to realize firsthand that it is all about the money (no surprise there) and not your daughters development and that your only option is to change teams and play for Club Suck out of Decatur. Anyway, there's my rant. Going back to work now so I can make enough money to make my June down payment for next season.
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Poor England

Post by Marvelousmar on 20/03/14, 10:19 am

db10 wrote:Results vs. Development.

Ask yourself why it matters so much if a girl plays on multiple teams for the same club. In the european model, or more specifically cerrtain country's in Europe, a player is played where the will be best developed. So a defender may be on a 'B' team but "guest" on the 'A' team during some games to develop aspects of their game and vice versa. When that happens here in Texas all the parents cry foul and complain that the club is trying to stack their team just to win. We have to know the difference if we are to move forward from both a parent and coach perspective.

Also, speaking of the Europeans, we all need to spend a bit more time learning about what's really going on over there before claiming that we should follow their model. You will see that the FA in England is in the same situation we are. Their development has stagnated and it's affecting their national team. Remember it's 1966 since they won a WC and what you see on the weekend in the EPL is not a result of English youth. It's a result of big $$$ and imported players from countries that do develop young talent such as Spain, The Netherlands, France and Germany.

That's why I would use Netherlands, Spain and France as examples. FA is almost as confused as US Soccer with their plan. It's just Football is more part of their culture but you are so correct. This player pass anger noted is due to the effect on wins and losses not on if it's best for the child. That's another story but I think in Spain, Netherlands, France and Germany, the equivalent of the player pass system is the norm. The whole concept of loaning a player out at a professional league is common in Europe. Very hard to comprehend here.
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by debit on 20/03/14, 11:11 am

I've enjoyed reading this coach's blog over the years.

http://blog.3four3.com/2014/02/13/mls-promotion-relegation-us-soccer/

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by SD69 on 20/03/14, 11:38 am

debit wrote:I've enjoyed reading this coach's blog over the years.

http://blog.3four3.com/2014/02/13/mls-promotion-relegation-us-soccer/

Watched a little of those videos. Impressive stuff for U11.
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by DrSoccer on 20/03/14, 01:38 pm

Player development starts and ends with the coaching. If you want a player to be national level then you have to get national level coaches. That's it.  If your club coach has never put a player on a youth nat team you have to ask yourself why not?
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Guest on 20/03/14, 01:44 pm

i would take away relegation and promotion until say u-14. here's why. if you are not in danger of relegation and no one else is then you can train kids and let them make mistakes. instead of playing kickball to win the game and move ahead in standings it would be about which coach teaches the game the best...

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by debit on 20/03/14, 02:10 pm

soccerdad1969 wrote:
debit wrote:I've enjoyed reading this coach's blog over the years.

http://blog.3four3.com/2014/02/13/mls-promotion-relegation-us-soccer/

Watched a little of those videos. Impressive stuff for U11.

That team is now U13 and they'll be here in a few weeks for Dallas Cup playing under Chivas USA name these days. Their best player from that group a couple years ago has been training at La Masia for the past 18 months or so, and another player (still with the team) guest played with Manchester City in a European tournament and won tournament MVP. This coach (Brian Kleiban) has developed some really high level players.

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Guest on 20/03/14, 02:39 pm

debit wrote:
soccerdad1969 wrote:
debit wrote:I've enjoyed reading this coach's blog over the years.

http://blog.3four3.com/2014/02/13/mls-promotion-relegation-us-soccer/

Watched a little of those videos. Impressive stuff for U11.

That team is now U13 and they'll be here in a few weeks for Dallas Cup playing under Chivas USA name these days.  Their best player from that group a couple years ago has been training at La Masia for the past 18 months or so, and another player (still with the team) guest played with Manchester City in a European tournament and won tournament MVP.  This coach (Brian Kleiban) has developed some really high level players.

Been a big fan of their blog for a long time as well...and love to watch their players. I think what they're trying to do with
coaching education is awesome, and exactly what's needed (just on a more massive scale).

I do think some of the hype about how phenomenal their methods are needs to be tempered a bit. They basically rounded up all the most awesome
players they could find...majority are/were hispanic, and then a benefactor completely sponsored the team.

So they started with exceptional players who came from a soccer culture, added exceptional training, and removed cost as a barrier.

Their results have been tremendous, but that recipe is not practical for most everywhere else in the U.S....which is still 95% pay to play.

That said - definitely looking forward to taking the DD out and watching them play in Dallas!


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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by DoubleDDRedux on 21/03/14, 09:07 am

Being very honest, a standout talent will excel even with average coaching. If we're being honest, kids that don't cut it (mine included) don't need to have their parents trying to find North Texas' version of La Masia.
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Guest on 21/03/14, 09:56 am

Disagree. No way anyone can convince me all these tiny nations in the world are somehow more gifted with standout talent than we are. Difference is coaching and culture.

Ronaldo or messi would be stars even raised in u.s., but the xavi, iniesta, pirhlo, ya ya or even ibra types cannot be made here in 95pct of our training systems. We identify and reward standout athletes...we dont know how to identify nor develop the other attributes that contribute to making truly great players.


Last edited by 4-3-3 on 21/03/14, 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by DoubleDDRedux on 21/03/14, 10:05 am

4-3-3 wrote:Disagree. No way anyone can convince me all these tiny nations in the world are somehow more gifted with standout talent than we are. Difference is coaching and culture.

Ronaldo or messi would be stars even raised in u.s., but the xavi, iniesta, pirhlo, ya ya or even ibra ypes cannot be made here in 95pct of our training systems. We identify and reward standout athletes...we dont know how to identify nor develop the other attributes that contribute to making truly great players.
I'm sorry. I know your frustration. Maybe have your daughter try another sport.
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by herradura on 21/03/14, 10:07 am

Troll alert 4-3-3… Don't feed the DDDRedux
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by DoubleDDRedux on 21/03/14, 10:18 am

herradura wrote:Troll alert 4-3-3… Don't feed the DDDRedux
hey! That hurts my feelings.
The reason the Xavi and the Inesta are great is because they are 1. Great athletes 2. Raised from young age in worlds best academy and play with the best players in the world and 3. Their only other sport option was playing Jai-Alai with the Basques.
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by pass-it on 21/03/14, 12:16 pm

Coach&Ref wrote:
TatonkaBurger wrote:I agree with these two great points:

2. The extra physical play and the fact that NTX referees are too afraid to call fouls and clamp down on it

This is a good point and hopefully I can shed some light on this:

Straight red cards or two yellow=red require a nightmare, time consuming amount of paperwork for the ref depending on the venue (LH/PPL/APL/Tournies). There are things on there such as: field conditions, wind, direction of sun, etc. Then the CR has to write a description of the exact reason for the card(s). The ARs either have to write a description themselves or just sign off on the comments. It is a pain in the butt when all of that has to be done when the normal process is to simply hand in the game sheet. With also running from game to game, sometimes without a break (I've gone 7 games consecutively sprinting from pitch to pitch), they have to stay late to do it when completely exhausted.

Does the previous explanation make it right? Not at times, but refs also have sympathy for the kids playing. No ref WANTS to see a kid unable to play the next match. I have rarely had to issue a red and when I did, I had to take a deep breath, sigh and feel like hanging my head for having to do what was appropriate. It still made me feel like crap.  Sad


C&R I'm sure you know, but for those that are not as familiar
FIFA rules are clear and leave NO room for sentiment on the part of the referee:


FIFA Interpretation Rules
--------------------
“Reckless” means that the player has acted with complete disregard to the
danger to, or consequences for, his opponent.
A player who plays in a reckless manner must be cautioned (yellow card)

“Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary
use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent.
A player who uses excessive force must be sent off (red card)

-------------------------------

There is just too much smash mouth play in LH week in and week out and unfortunately we have become de-sensitized to it and many have come to accepted it as the norm.
I watched an 03 game several weeks ago where dozens of reckless challanges (I do not exagerate) went without a referee caution and the game escalated to dangerous retaliation level of play.  From chopping and pushing from behind with no intent to play the ball, pulling players down by the neck, high boots into abdomen etc.

Its time to reset the bar per the rules... the referees are key, but so is parent understanding and expectation  

If a red card is warranted, in the long run it is best for the kid, as they will need to adjust their game, develop skills rather than rely on brawn to continue playing.  And kids on the receiving end of a reckless or dangerous challange, they deserve to be protected per the rules!

But ALSO as important for the overall game in NTX, as high level technical play is very difficult to develop in a smash mouth environment at young ages.    


http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/worldfootball/clubfootball/01/37/04/28/law12-en.pdf
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/footballdevelopment/technicalsupport/refereeing/laws-of-the-game/interpretation/index.html
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/worldfootball/clubfootball/01/37/04/21/interpretation_law05_en.pdf

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Guest on 21/03/14, 02:44 pm

Straight red cards or two yellow=red require a nightmare, time consuming amount of paperwork for the ref depending on the venue (LH/PPL/APL/Tournies).


This kind of butt covering lazy bureaucratic nonsense makes me pissed off. Sorry kid about your broken leg or torn acl, the adult refs didn't want to waste time filling out paperwork by ejecting the player BEFORE this happened to you... Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Coach&Ref on 21/03/14, 03:38 pm

silentparent wrote:Straight red cards or two yellow=red require a nightmare, time consuming amount of paperwork for the ref depending on the venue (LH/PPL/APL/Tournies).


This kind of butt covering lazy bureaucratic nonsense makes me pissed off. Sorry kid about your broken leg or torn acl, the adult refs didn't want to waste time filling out paperwork by ejecting the player BEFORE this happened to you... Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

I agree. I have given them when warranted, but it doesn't change the fact that it is still sad for me to have to do. Yes, the paperwork sucks, but I have to do it. I hate the fact that the player has to miss but, I agree that it is a lesson that sometimes has to be learned the hard way. I definitely wouldn't feel bad for the initiating player being sent off for causing a major injury.

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Coach&Ref on 21/03/14, 03:42 pm

pass-it,

We use the USSF rules, not FIFA, but I really haven't found much difference over the years between the two. I have noticed that the USSF usually just lags behind FIFA when it comes to accepting and adopting the new rules.

The ones you mentioned are almost identical, I believe, but I'm not currently looking at both side-by-side.

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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by NoFanOfDrama on 21/03/14, 03:47 pm

silentparent wrote:Straight red cards or two yellow=red require a nightmare, time consuming amount of paperwork for the ref depending on the venue (LH/PPL/APL/Tournies).


This kind of butt covering lazy bureaucratic nonsense makes me pissed off. Sorry kid about your broken leg or torn acl, the adult refs didn't want to waste time filling out paperwork by ejecting the player BEFORE this happened to you... Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

I agree Silent. I got a mean look by the salt/pepper stocky ref (he's quite the ref-nazi) when I suggested he get control of the game before someone gets hurt. Clearly he felt bash-em soccer was the normal way to play.

When you don't call a foul, you effectively condone the behavior. Why a ref would feel this is the right way to learn the game is beyond me.
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Re: What is fundamentally wrong with NTX soccer?

Post by Guest on 21/03/14, 04:17 pm

The issue isnt only paperwork. It's really more about ref culture. A ref doing these younger games does not want to have to turn in his sheets with a bunch of yellows and reds because it makes him/her look bad with the assignor. The thought is you should be able to control these youngers without cards, and if you don't have the presence to control u12s without cards, an assignor might be hesitant to ever put you on older age group games...which pay more and carry more prestige among refs.

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