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Post by intrinsic on 03/01/15, 05:59 pm

http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=12114523&city=losangeles&src=desktop

Skill development in US vs. Europe and the impact on quality of professional players- as seen by an all-time great.

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Post by Guest on 03/01/15, 06:14 pm

I was about to post the same thing.

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Post by tornado11 on 03/01/15, 07:32 pm

I have been saying the same thing about club soccer for years,it's a money grab pure and simple. Look at the recent ecnl 'tournament' in Florida....approx. 324 girls teams x $1,450 per team...almost 6500 girls all trying to get 'noticed' by the 100 or so college coaches there. There is a reason the rest of the world is catching up very quickly in girls/women's soccer and a big part of the reason is the club system entrenched in the USA.

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Post by soccersounder on 03/01/15, 08:29 pm

Sorry Tornado, but your numbers are way off on the ECNL Event. There was well over 50 coaches at our games in Florida for our 18 players.

But to the point of the thread, us so-called "American Soccer Experts" you know, the ones who come out to our dd's practice each week proclaiming "did you see the Chelsea game?"  And start to critique the game. Funny stuff.

The Europe Systems and South American systems were already much better than the US system, so it comes at no surprise that as soon as some of those Countries began to take the Women's game  seriously, that they would catch us in a hurry.
But there is really no argument, as it is really apples to oranges. The goal in the other Countries IS NOT a college scholarship like it is here. Foreign players come to the US for College. And there will NEVER be a US Soccer Academy that brings in the best U12 players to live and breath soccer for free.

So our goal should be help with college. And in that way, we have a great system. The only thing lacking is that many families are not able to participate because of cost. Some will say Clubs will offer help, but that type of player will always have to find a way to prove themselves and then the family will have to go and ask. But the colleges have way more D1 roster spots each year than ECNL has HS Seniors. Plenty of college opportunity to go around.
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Post by tornado11 on 03/01/15, 09:11 pm

soccersounder wrote:..

...Sorry Tornado, but your numbers are way off on the ECNL Event. There was well over 50 coaches at our games in Florida for our 18 players.


And I'm sure those '50 coaches' were out there all day watching multiple games not just your daughters team and, chances are, were moving on to the next game asap. The fact is we do not live in a 'soccer culture'...one of the reasons more and more D1 colleges are scouting in Europe, bringing in players from all over the world to take spots that could have gone to American girls....How many foreign players were on Florida States women's team this past season..?...

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Post by Guest on 03/01/15, 10:28 pm

Tornado, I don't think you have a good handle on how recruiting works. I am no expert, but the way I understand it is as such:
1. Player writes in to college and expresses interest in playing for college
2. College receives multiple letters from players and determines best place to watch multiple players at same event (They don't have an unlimited budget to attend every event).
3. Depending on school, they may find that the best place to watch multiple players interested in their school is an ECNL, National League, Showcase event.

Again no expert but my hunch is ECNL is a pretty good place to be if your DD wants to play for a top school.


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Post by Zizou on 03/01/15, 10:51 pm

tornado11 wrote:
soccersounder wrote:..

...Sorry Tornado, but your numbers are way off on the ECNL Event. There was well over 50 coaches at our games in Florida for our 18 players.


And I'm sure those '50 coaches' were out there all day watching multiple games not just your daughters team and, chances are, were moving on to the next game asap. The fact is we do not live in a 'soccer culture'...one of the reasons more and more D1 colleges are scouting in Europe, bringing in players from all over the world to take spots that could have gone to American girls....How many foreign players were on Florida States women's team this past season..?...


With that being said, I for one would not even allow my DD to except any material from Florida State about going to play soccer. Others in the states including clubs and their coaches would be wise to do the same. It will catch up with them soon enough!

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Post by tornado11 on 03/01/15, 11:03 pm

The absolute best place to be 'seen' is at the summer camps of the colleges you are interested in...This a direct quote from page 171 of 'The Man Watching' subtitled 'Anson Dorrance and the University of North Carolina Women's Soccer Dynasty'...quote..'Dorrance recruits directly from his camps, and he gets results. Seven of the Eleven starters on one of his national championship teams were former UNC campers'....One of his current players, a sophomore from this area, was first noticed at the UNC camp the summer after her freshman year at a local high school..this girl (who played in every single game this past UNC season, scored goals and had assists) returned to the camp the summer following her sophomore H.S. season and was offered a scholarship which she accepted. Neither Anson Dorrance nor any of his assistants had ever seen her play for her N.Texas ecnl team...ECNL is over rated IMO...

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Post by Zizou on 03/01/15, 11:24 pm

tornado11 wrote:The absolute best place to be 'seen' is at the summer camps of the colleges you are interested in...This a direct quote from page 171 of 'The Man Watching' subtitled 'Anson Dorrance and the University of North Carolina Women's Soccer Dynasty'...quote..'Dorrance recruits directly from his camps, and he gets results. Seven of the Eleven starters on one of his national championship teams were former UNC campers'....One of his current players, a sophomore from this area, was first noticed at the UNC camp the summer after her freshman year at a local high school..this girl (who played in every single game this past UNC season, scored goals and had assists) returned to the camp the summer following her sophomore H.S. season and was offered a scholarship which she accepted. Neither Anson Dorrance nor any of his assistants had ever seen her play for her N.Texas ecnl team...ECNL is over rated IMO...



This is a must read from the New York times about the poker player in the dark hat and sunglasses scanning the field.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/27/sports/committing-to-play-for-a-college-then-starting-9th-grade.html?_r=0

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Post by Guest on 04/01/15, 09:12 am

Zizou wrote:
tornado11 wrote:
soccersounder wrote:..

...Sorry Tornado, but your numbers are way off on the ECNL Event. There was well over 50 coaches at our games in Florida for our 18 players.


And I'm sure those '50 coaches' were out there all day watching multiple games not just your daughters team and, chances are, were moving on to the next game asap. The fact is we do not live in a 'soccer culture'...one of the reasons more and more D1 colleges are scouting in Europe, bringing in players from all over the world to take spots that could have gone to American girls....How many foreign players were on Florida States women's team this past season..?...


With that being said, I for one would not even allow my DD to except any material from Florida State about going to play soccer. Others in the states including clubs and their coaches would be wise to do the same. It will catch up with them soon enough!

What will catch up with them? Why would you not allow your daughter to play soccer at Florida State? Why should club coaches discourage players from attending Florida State?

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Post by Guest on 04/01/15, 09:38 am

Florida state is a great example. Why should international players be generally better than American players when they show up as freshmen?

IMO, the advantage of the international system is how they develop 17 to 22 year-old players who are pro focused while our kids are focused on college soccer.

This is why a player like Lindsey Horan (who chose to be an international pro instead of college) stuck out like a sore thumb at the u20 world cup as the only u.s. player with the type of polish you see from top international players her age.

So I'll agree, we can expect America to have an increasingly difficult time being the top dog when it comes to fully grown players.

The issue is we've been getting handled at younger and younger age groups. Not only did FSU use 6 or 7 international players, but they had very few ECNL players on the roster at all (From their bios, their only ECNL player was the keeper).  

Maybe FSU 2014 is an outlier, dunno...but it means FSU is operating outside of the bubble in how they identify players.They take top talent, no doubt, with several youth national team players and etc. etc., but it doesn't appear FSU restricts their ID efforts to only players who've come through high cost american youth programs.

For me it's not really about ECNL specifically...it's just the latest (select/elite/premiere/gold/platinum/unobtanium) flavor of the month. I just read Super Y is making a comeback, so who knows, could be a new flavor in another 5 years.

The point I took from Kobe's comment is the increasing commercialization of youth sports ends up making adults a lot of money, but appears to be reducing the actual competitiveness and skill of our player pools. There's more participation from a wealthier demographic, but too many of our top youth talents are either priced out or pimped by adults who aren't training them in fundamentals for long term success.

And while I think there are some underlying cultural problems contributing to the decline of american athletes across the board, I do agree with Kobe 100% about the shift to club $ball$ and a wild-west $AAU$. I posted on here 3 or 4 years ago this would have the same effect in basketball as we see in soccer when I learned about "elite" basketball youth clubs traveling as much "elite" american soccer players.

And BB is a sport we've dominated for a long time...can't use the "culture" excuse. Basketball is becoming increasingly international, and if the current trends continue we're going to see college ball as a game for relatively wealthy kids for all but the one and doners, NBA teams sprouting in europe...maybe even south america, and we'll be looking back at the era when u.s.a basketball dominated as the golden years.

Swapping out playground ball for paid coaches and structured practices, and swapping out the lifer middle school & high school educator coaches as the gatekeepers and handing the reigns over to AAU and club coach money pimps is copying the club soccer model...private pay to play except for the top few...and those few need to focus on winning to justify getting their free ride...shouldn't surprise anyone it's starting to produce the same results.

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Post by Guest on 04/01/15, 09:57 am

This is why a player like Lindsey Horan (who chose to be an international pro instead of college)

pro? pro what? The NWSL? Women's soccer has one real outlet, the USWNT and that's it. You want your daughter to forgo college for that?



a salary that typically ranges from $6,000 to $30,000 (with most players seeing the lower end of that range).

Herein lies the biggest problem for the NWSL: To keep the league afloat, it is paying preposterously low salaries. And who can afford to play professional soccer for $6,000 per year? Mostly women in college or only a few years out, as well as those with minimal national-team-level experience. And though this modest budget has helped the league’s bottom line, it has made it more difficult to attract high-level players — well, high-level players who are not members of the U.S. national team.

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Post by futbollove on 04/01/15, 10:07 am

silentparent wrote:This is why a player like Lindsey Horan (who chose to be an international pro instead of college)

pro? pro what?  The NWSL? Women's soccer has one real outlet, the USWNT and that's it. You want your daughter to forgo college for that?



a salary that typically ranges from $6,000 to $30,000 (with most players seeing the lower end of that range).

Herein lies the biggest problem for the NWSL: To keep the league afloat, it is paying preposterously low salaries. And who can afford to play professional soccer for $6,000 per year? Mostly women in college or only a few years out, as well as those with minimal national-team-level experience. And though this modest budget has helped the league’s bottom line, it has made it more difficult to attract high-level players — well, high-level players who are not members of the U.S. national team.
International Pro. Horan reportedly signed a six-figure deal. Do some research before confirming what we all already know. SP is clueless.
Happy New Year
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Post by futbollove on 04/01/15, 10:07 am

4-3-3 wrote:Florida state is a great example. Why should international players be generally better than American players when they show up as freshmen?

IMO, the advantage of the international system is how they develop 17 to 22 year-old players who are pro focused while our kids are focused on college soccer.

This is why a player like Lindsey Horan (who chose to be an international pro instead of college) stuck out like a sore thumb at the u20 world cup as the only u.s. player with the type of polish you see from top international players her age.

So I'll agree, we can expect America to have an increasingly difficult time being the top dog when it comes to fully grown players.

The issue is we've been getting handled at younger and younger age groups. Not only did FSU use 6 or 7 international players, but they had very few ECNL players on the roster at all (From their bios, their only ECNL player was the keeper).  

Maybe FSU 2014 is an outlier, dunno...but it means FSU is operating outside of the bubble in how they identify players.They take top talent, no doubt, with several youth national team players and etc. etc., but it doesn't appear FSU restricts their ID efforts to only players who've come through high cost american youth programs.

For me it's not really about ECNL specifically...it's just the latest (select/elite/premiere/gold/platinum/unobtanium) flavor of the month. I just read Super Y is making a comeback, so who knows, could be a new flavor in another 5 years.

The point I took from Kobe's comment is the increasing commercialization of youth sports ends up making adults a lot of money, but appears to be reducing the actual competitiveness and skill of our player pools. There's more participation from a wealthier demographic, but too many of our top youth talents are either priced out or pimped by adults who aren't training them in fundamentals for long term success.

And while I think there are some underlying cultural problems contributing to the decline of american athletes across the board, I do agree with Kobe 100% about the shift to club $ball$ and a wild-west $AAU$. I posted on here 3 or 4 years ago this would have the same effect in basketball as we see in soccer when I learned about "elite" basketball youth clubs traveling as much "elite" american soccer players.

And BB is a sport we've dominated for a long time...can't use the "culture" excuse. Basketball is becoming increasingly international, and if the current trends continue we're going to see college ball as a game for relatively wealthy kids for all but the one and doners, NBA teams sprouting in europe...maybe even south america, and we'll be looking back at the era when u.s.a basketball dominated as the golden years.

Swapping out playground ball for paid coaches and structured practices, and swapping out the lifer middle school & high school educator coaches as the gatekeepers and handing the reigns over to AAU and club coach money pimps is copying the club soccer model...private pay to play except for the top few...and those few need to focus on winning to justify getting their free ride...shouldn't surprise anyone it's starting to produce the same results.
Best post this year.
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Post by Zizou on 04/01/15, 10:08 am

4-3-3 wrote:
Zizou wrote:
tornado11 wrote:
soccersounder wrote:..

...Sorry Tornado, but your numbers are way off on the ECNL Event. There was well over 50 coaches at our games in Florida for our 18 players.


And I'm sure those '50 coaches' were out there all day watching multiple games not just your daughters team and, chances are, were moving on to the next game asap. The fact is we do not live in a 'soccer culture'...one of the reasons more and more D1 colleges are scouting in Europe, bringing in players from all over the world to take spots that could have gone to American girls....How many foreign players were on Florida States women's team this past season..?...


With that being said, I for one would not even allow my DD to except any material from Florida State about going to play soccer. Others in the states including clubs and their coaches would be wise to do the same. It will catch up with them soon enough!

What will catch up with them? Why would you not allow your daughter to play soccer at Florida State?  Why should club coaches discourage players from attending Florida State?

Florida State burst on the college elite stage by recruiting foreign players. Pretty much bought a college cup from abroad. hey that may work for you, but in my opinion I would like to see our universities support our american players.

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Post by Guest on 04/01/15, 10:52 am

futbollove wrote:
silentparent wrote:This is why a player like Lindsey Horan (who chose to be an international pro instead of college)

pro? pro what?  The NWSL? Women's soccer has one real outlet, the USWNT and that's it. You want your daughter to forgo college for that?



a salary that typically ranges from $6,000 to $30,000 (with most players seeing the lower end of that range).

Herein lies the biggest problem for the NWSL: To keep the league afloat, it is paying preposterously low salaries. And who can afford to play professional soccer for $6,000 per year? Mostly women in college or only a few years out, as well as those with minimal national-team-level experience. And though this modest budget has helped the league’s bottom line, it has made it more difficult to attract high-level players — well, high-level players who are not members of the U.S. national team.
International Pro. Horan reportedly signed a six-figure deal. Do some research before confirming what we all already know. SP is clueless.
Happy New Year

ahh futbol love, you are the same ninny in 15 as you were in 14. So you think that being an american your career path should count on being signed by a club in europe for big bucks, well you just go right ahead with that pipe dream. The reality is that college is the end of the line for 99 percent of all female soccer players and those that go "pro" are better off getting a real job unless you can live on 6-30k in NWSL...

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Post by Guest on 04/01/15, 11:13 am

I dont see it that way zizou. The core of their attack has been american players for years. They won a college cup because of their international talent on defense AND because J. Fields and C.Williams and Pickett played their butts off down the stretch...all those kids are American soccer through and through, they just weren't mainstream mega club establishment players.

I'm typically a homer type and don't like to see the international players taking over the women's college game, but I think the very fact they can have such an impact is evidence we created a bubble with this elite player high cost model. We think we're putting out awesome players when we're really only putting out the slice of awesome players who can afford the costs. It takes programs like Florida state having success to pop the bubble and hopefully other schools become more open to recruiting outside the bubble. We just need more great soccer minds to create an alternate player development model to the mega club high cost elite hierarchy so that we have a pool of American players well positioned to fill the void when it does pop...I don't want to see more and more international players getting the spots in womens ncaa anymore than I want to see more and more of foreigners dominate the nba...but if they are better, let the best play...and figure out what we are doing wrong and fix it.

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Post by Guest on 04/01/15, 11:15 am

Zizou wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:
Zizou wrote:
tornado11 wrote:
soccersounder wrote:..

...Sorry Tornado, but your numbers are way off on the ECNL Event. There was well over 50 coaches at our games in Florida for our 18 players.


And I'm sure those '50 coaches' were out there all day watching multiple games not just your daughters team and, chances are, were moving on to the next game asap. The fact is we do not live in a 'soccer culture'...one of the reasons more and more D1 colleges are scouting in Europe, bringing in players from all over the world to take spots that could have gone to American girls....How many foreign players were on Florida States women's team this past season..?...


With that being said, I for one would not even allow my DD to except any material from Florida State about going to play soccer. Others in the states including clubs and their coaches would be wise to do the same. It will catch up with them soon enough!

What will catch up with them? Why would you not allow your daughter to play soccer at Florida State?  Why should club coaches discourage players from attending Florida State?

Florida State burst on the college elite stage by recruiting foreign players. Pretty much bought a college cup from abroad. hey that may work for you, but in my opinion I would like to see our universities support our american players.


That does work for me. The best should play in all situations.

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Post by Zizou on 04/01/15, 11:58 am

I will let you head that crusade. It was broken long before my DD and I got here and will continue to be broken long after we are gone. I could understand recruiting from abroad and bringing in foreign players to boost your roster, but 6-7 players starters to win a championship is not the way to fixing any problems. I will not entertain any information about playing for Florida State. (my opinion). I will though continue to support those schools that support american players broken system or not!

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Post by Guest on 04/01/15, 12:01 pm

After having just spent 8 days in Spain, and a Q&A with the FC Barcelona Academy Director... The women's scene has changed abroud.

Change is coming.

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Post by Guest on 04/01/15, 12:37 pm

Zizou wrote:I will let you head that crusade. It was broken long before my DD and I got here and will continue to be broken long after we are gone. I could understand recruiting from abroad and bringing in foreign players to boost your roster, but 6-7 players starters to win a championship is not the way to fixing any problems. I will not entertain any information about playing for Florida State. (my opinion). I will though continue to support those schools that support american players broken system or not!

I don't have any incentive to head any crusade at the moment...current system works for my DD. She's solidly in that demographic of  tall, athletic, decent skill, great grades with parents that can afford to pay to play at whatever level she wants to attain. I can spot the potholes, but we are traveling down the same road as everyone else, choosing to do as Romans do while in Rome.

It's the truly gifted players who can't afford the artificially high top level costs that are  left out or let down by current state.

Fretting over the # of FSU international players is a 1st world problem...if your kid is good enough that truly FSU wants her, she's probably good enough to play anywhere in the country....and if that's the case, she's probably independent enough that she will be the one deciding where she wants to play.

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Post by Zizou on 04/01/15, 01:38 pm

I agree!

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Post by Guest on 04/01/15, 02:16 pm

While in Barcelona I researched the women's game. I was surprised by how many all girls clubs there were. On top of the fact that nearly every men's club also had a womens side now.

All following the traditional model. National and regional leagues for 7s, futsal, and 11s. This was for prebenjamin all the way thu to the A sides.

College coaches have to accomplish one thing... Win. And if they can get a more polished player from overseas to do that, they will.

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Post by Zizou on 04/01/15, 03:26 pm

Lol,

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Post by tornado11 on 04/01/15, 03:34 pm

Some good thoughts and comments on this thread. Fact is, club soccer is huge business in this country...huge...although I am not convinced the coaching is up to snuff, certainly not in North Texas from what I've seen, and I have watched plenty of supposedly 'top level' practice sessions conducted by the local ECNL coaches. We seem to be producing tons of 'coached' players....but hardly any with a bit of magic like a Marta for example.

Same thing on the men's side. I came up with a list of 18 Dutch players off the top of my head ( starting with Cruyff, Van Basten, Bergkamp, Davids, etc) all of them way better than any American player ever. Holland has a population of about 17million....Texas alone has at least 50% more than that. The club system is the problem....not the solution.

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