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Post by saints510 on 23/04/15, 03:59 pm

It was told to some parents that D3 teams are all safe due to the number of ECNL teams that will form and take teams out of the two upper divisions. I had heard that these teams could be dually affiliated with ECNL and LHGCL this upcoming year, so you would still need to be 6th or higher to stay in D3. Can anyone confirm either of those theories?


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Post by dadof3 on 23/04/15, 04:10 pm

It is totally their option. The 5 00 teams all left and it just opened spots below. I believe some of the 01s kept both. It totally depends on what those teams decide individually.
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Post by saints510 on 24/04/15, 10:14 am

dadof3 wrote:It is totally their option. The 5 00 teams all left and it just opened spots below. I believe some of the 01s kept both. It totally depends on what those teams decide individually.

When do they make that decision? Is it usually before July 1st signing deadline? Thanks for the info!

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Post by Guest on 24/04/15, 10:46 am

Last year (2014) League Bye fee's were due by July 7th. I can't find a date for the upcoming year. I don't believe it's been set yet. I would expect it to be around the same time this year

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Post by Zizou on 24/04/15, 11:09 am

Texans, Solar, Sting, FC Dallas, will keep their LHGCL division one teams. if you are pending your advancement in LHGCL on ECNL teams leaving. Don't! They will keep their division one spots.

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Post by Guest on 24/04/15, 11:26 am

OLJW wrote:Last year (2014) League Bye fee's were due by July 7th. I can't find a date for the upcoming year. I don't believe it's been set yet. I would expect it to be around the same time this year

There was also a June 15th deadline for submitting paperwork to claim a bye.

Based on what I saw happen with the '01's last year, my opinion is that the process is going to play out differently each year, it will be difficult to predict ahead of time, AND it may have trickle down effects that involve D2/D3/PPL teams from within the same club or even D1/D2 teams from non-ECNL clubs.

If you feel that the league/division that your DD plays in is critical to you/her, then you will have to keep your eyes and ears wide open and pay close attention to the dynamics of the situation.  If you and your DD are happy with the team she is currently on, and it's doesn't really matter where that team ends up playing, then you will be more likely able to relax through this transition year.

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Post by wxyz on 24/04/15, 11:30 am

Zizou wrote:Texans, Solar, Sting, FC Dallas, will keep their LHGCL division one teams. if you are pending your advancement in LHGCL on ECNL teams leaving. Don't! They will keep their division one spots.

Last year, for '01s, Texans, Solar and FCD kept their D1 byes.  Sting chose not to keep their bye and D'Feeters did not have enough players to backfill their D1 team.  Sting abandoned another D1 bye (Guzman), so there were 3 spots that trickled down to D3.

For '00s, LH did not have the rules in place that allowed the clubs to keep their D1 byes (Club Player Pass & "N+1") so all of them abandoned their D1 byes.

This year, who knows... If I were a betting man, I would guess that all 4 will try to keep their D1 and D'Feeters will try to keep their D2 (more revenue!).

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Post by Guest on 24/04/15, 12:01 pm

wxyz wrote:
Zizou wrote:Texans, Solar, Sting, FC Dallas, will keep their LHGCL division one teams. if you are pending your advancement in LHGCL on ECNL teams leaving. Don't! They will keep their division one spots.

Last year, for '01s, Texans, Solar and FCD kept their D1 byes.  Sting chose not to keep their bye and D'Feeters did not have enough players to backfill their D1 team.  Sting abandoned another D1 bye (Guzman), so there were 3 spots that trickled down to D3.

For '00s, LH did not have the rules in place that allowed the clubs to keep their D1 byes (Club Player Pass & "N+1") so all of them abandoned their D1 byes.

This year, who knows...  If I were a betting man, I would guess that all 4 will try to keep their D1 and D'Feeters will try to keep their D2 (more revenue!).

Agreed, but it will also depend heavily on the player pool dynamics at each club as it relates to how they form their ECNL roster, and what players/teams each club has in place to filter up the chain to fill any spots vacated by players that will be ECNL exclusive (as opposed to dual roster), or leave the club to go try out for ECNL teams at a different club.  Last year showed that it has the chance to be a pretty big free-for-all.  It may not be like that every year, but I think it is going to be very hard to predict ahead of time how it will play out for any age group going forward.

...Oh, and actually, Sting only forfeited 1 bye last year, which was the Flanagan bye forfeited for ECNL. Sting Donovan (Hilton) took the Guzman bye in D1 (which was a D1 bye ONLY because Sting Flanagan and D'Feeters forfeited their byes for ECNL), and then Sting Central Cuevas took Donovan's bye in D2 (Cuevas has finished in last place in D3 at U13 and was going to have to requalify). So this is part of what I mean by what players/teams clubs have in the pipeline to filter up the chain if players/teams vacate spots in D1 due to ECNL.

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Post by dadof3 on 24/04/15, 03:04 pm

OLJW wrote:Last year (2014) League Bye fees were due by July 7th. I can't find a date for the upcoming year. I don't believe it's been set yet. I would expect it to be around the same time this year

It may not be that early since we may still be making up games...

I am also not sure about the N+1 rule for LH...I didn't deal with the 01 drama, but there are (and have been) plenty of LH teams that don't have N+1 for retaining a spot as long as the club keeps it...

I trust your posts on it, and it may be that in order to ensure that they weren't going to have to act against their big clients coming in violation of their own rules regarding the byes, they would have proof (N+1) that teams were using their own former players (at least on paper).

I know that when the 00s came around, I was the sound of one hand clapping asking why clubs WOULDN'T keep their byes (and that revenue)...As it turns out, I was a year early in my foresight...
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Post by oldboot on 24/04/15, 04:10 pm

bwgophers wrote:
wxyz wrote:
Zizou wrote:Texans, Solar, Sting, FC Dallas, will keep their LHGCL division one teams. if you are pending your advancement in LHGCL on ECNL teams leaving. Don't! They will keep their division one spots.

Last year, for '01s, Texans, Solar and FCD kept their D1 byes.  Sting chose not to keep their bye and D'Feeters did not have enough players to backfill their D1 team.  Sting abandoned another D1 bye (Guzman), so there were 3 spots that trickled down to D3.

For '00s, LH did not have the rules in place that allowed the clubs to keep their D1 byes (Club Player Pass & "N+1") so all of them abandoned their D1 byes.

This year, who knows...  If I were a betting man, I would guess that all 4 will try to keep their D1 and D'Feeters will try to keep their D2 (more revenue!).

Agreed, but it will also depend heavily on the player pool dynamics at each club as it relates to how they form their ECNL roster, and what players/teams each club has in place to filter up the chain to fill any spots vacated by players that will be ECNL exclusive (as opposed to dual roster), or leave the club to go try out for ECNL teams at a different club.  Last year showed that it has the chance to be a pretty big free-for-all.  It may not be like that every year, but I think it is going to be very hard to predict ahead of time how it will play out for any age group going forward.

...Oh, and actually, Sting only forfeited 1 bye last year, which was the Flanagan bye forfeited for ECNL.  Sting Donovan (Hilton) took the Guzman bye in D1 (which was a D1 bye ONLY because Sting Flanagan and D'Feeters forfeited their byes for ECNL), and then Sting Central Cuevas took Donovan's bye in D2 (Cuevas has finished in last place in D3 at U13 and was going to have to requalify).  So this is part of what I mean by what players/teams clubs have in the pipeline to filter up the chain if players/teams vacate spots in D1 due to ECNL.

So if for example, a team has a roster of 16, it can keep the bye as long as at least 9 of those players stay on the roster - whether or not they are dual rostered on the club's ECNL team?
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Post by Guest on 24/04/15, 04:49 pm

oldboot wrote:
bwgophers wrote:
wxyz wrote:
Zizou wrote:Texans, Solar, Sting, FC Dallas, will keep their LHGCL division one teams. if you are pending your advancement in LHGCL on ECNL teams leaving. Don't! They will keep their division one spots.

Last year, for '01s, Texans, Solar and FCD kept their D1 byes.  Sting chose not to keep their bye and D'Feeters did not have enough players to backfill their D1 team.  Sting abandoned another D1 bye (Guzman), so there were 3 spots that trickled down to D3.

For '00s, LH did not have the rules in place that allowed the clubs to keep their D1 byes (Club Player Pass & "N+1") so all of them abandoned their D1 byes.

This year, who knows...  If I were a betting man, I would guess that all 4 will try to keep their D1 and D'Feeters will try to keep their D2 (more revenue!).

Agreed, but it will also depend heavily on the player pool dynamics at each club as it relates to how they form their ECNL roster, and what players/teams each club has in place to filter up the chain to fill any spots vacated by players that will be ECNL exclusive (as opposed to dual roster), or leave the club to go try out for ECNL teams at a different club.  Last year showed that it has the chance to be a pretty big free-for-all.  It may not be like that every year, but I think it is going to be very hard to predict ahead of time how it will play out for any age group going forward.

...Oh, and actually, Sting only forfeited 1 bye last year, which was the Flanagan bye forfeited for ECNL.  Sting Donovan (Hilton) took the Guzman bye in D1 (which was a D1 bye ONLY because Sting Flanagan and D'Feeters forfeited their byes for ECNL), and then Sting Central Cuevas took Donovan's bye in D2 (Cuevas has finished in last place in D3 at U13 and was going to have to requalify).  So this is part of what I mean by what players/teams clubs have in the pipeline to filter up the chain if players/teams vacate spots in D1 due to ECNL.

So if for example, a team has a roster of 16, it can keep the bye as long as at least 9 of those players stay on the roster - whether or not they are dual rostered on the club's ECNL team?

Actually, I think LHGCL would let them get away with 8 out of 16, but I have not seen that written anywhere (just to clarify, this ONLY applies to the case of the roster most directly affected by the club forming it's ECNL team).  The LHGCL rule as it is written talks about a "majority" of players.  With CPP in the mix, realistically, I believe that you could get away with as few as 5 or 6 "regular" players on the LHGCL team being holdovers from the U13 roster.  You would officially need 8-9 of those players on the NTSSA/LHGCL roster, but 3 of them could be there in name only, and the club could CPP 3 players from the ECNL roster every game.  Some or all of those players could be dual rostered to the ECNL team, as ECNL allows up to 30 on their rosters.  What the club does, is registers the ECNL only players as a separate team with NTSSA, but just doesn't register that team with LHGCL.  By LHGCL rule, that makes any of the ECNL players eligible to be CPP'd to an LHGCL roster for a game.

In reality, this means that a club needs a total player pool of ~28-30 players to field both an ECNL team and keep the top team's LHGCL bye.  If there is a second LHGCL team that is contributing a small # of dual roster players to ECNL, you may be able to get away with a pool of closer to 25 (I believe Texans '01 ECNL/Texans '01 LHGCL/Texans '01 White LHGCL is something like this).

So, in order to form an ECNL team and not surrender a bye, the club has to add a minimum of 10-12 players to the core of the U13 top team.  The question then becomes where do these players come from?  Outside the club?  From other teams within the club?

What then, happens to the teams where these extra players came from?  In some cases, teams will back fill with players that move up from D2, D3, PPL (i.e. Andromeda '01, among others). In some cases teams will fold (i.e. Sting '01 Guzman) and if the club has more D2/D3/PPL teams in the pipeline, they can cycle entire teams up to claim those byes.  In some cases, the club may not try or may not be able to attract enough quality players to form the ECNL team and still keep the top team's bye (D'Feeters '01/Sting '01).

At the end of the day, the situation really hasn't changed.  The top 15 or so players on each of the ECNL rosters are going to be ECNL "exclusive" and will not be playing regularly in LHGCL games, so there will be a talent drain of roughly 70-80 top players out of LHGCL at U14.  What is less predictable now, is how the shuffling of players to fill those 70-80 spots will fall out from year-to-year.


Last edited by bwgophers on 24/04/15, 05:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Modified to correct my statement reflecting D'Feeters '01)

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Post by oldboot on 24/04/15, 05:00 pm

Thanks Gophers - I've wondered how that worked since last year. Your insights are always appreciated - at least by us monkeys.
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Post by 1more_dd_dad on 24/04/15, 05:01 pm

Just reading through some of this but the 01' Feet team did not try to fill a LHGCL bye and never advertised as such or offered that as an option. A couple of parents asked but there was never any intention. I doubt they will try with the 02's either but I could be wrong.
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Post by Guest on 24/04/15, 05:04 pm

1more_dd_dad wrote:Just reading through some of this but the 01' Feet team did not try to fill a LHGCL bye and never advertised as such or offered that as an option.  A couple of parents asked but there was never any intention.  I doubt they will try with the 02's either but I could be wrong.

Apologies 1more. Wasn't trying to disparage anyone. I modified my statement in my previous post.

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Post by Guest on 24/04/15, 05:43 pm

2. General Definitions for League Playing Format and Qualifying Tournament
a) Teams are invited back into LHGCL for the next soccer year (“Bye”) according to the playing format below. The spirit of a bye is to reward returning teams/players for their performance the prior year. A “team” is generally determined by the team name and club affiliation. There is no minimum number of players from the previous soccer year that must be retained by a team to keep a Bye for the club for the next soccer year. However, there are two situations where a bye would not be extended to a club based on the team standings from the prior year.
(1) If 75 percent of the players on a team (based on the roster as of April 1 of the previous soccer year, rounding fractions up to the next whole number*) leave a team/club to join another team/club, the league Bye will be awarded to that group of players with their new team/club, except as outlined in (2.a.2) below. If
Ver. 0302V13 1

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ECNL teams and LHGCL Empty Re: ECNL teams and LHGCL

Post by Guest on 24/04/15, 05:47 pm

And here's the rest of it.

this takes place, the Age Division Commissioner must be informed at the time the roster is submitted.
*Examples:
75% of 14 players = 10.5 = 11 players
75% of 15 players = 11.25 = 12 players
75% of 16 players = 12 players
75% of 17 players = 12.75 = 13 players
75% of 18 players = 13.5 = 14 players
(2) If a club registers a team for a non-North Texas league, without that team also playing in a regularly scheduled
Division of Lake Highlands Girls Classic League, they will lose the bye most closely associated with the group of girls leaving the league. For example, if the majority of the girls are leaving from Division I, a Division I Bye will be forfeited by that club in each applicable age group. The Lake Highlands Girls Classic League will make available participation in a separate division with an abbreviated schedule and reduced league fee if a sufficient number of teams agrees to participate with sufficient notice for the coordination and scheduling of that division. The final decision as to whether or not a separate division would be viable will rest with the Lake Highlands Girls Classic League Board of Directors.
Open spots that are created by the above outlined situation, will be filled as follows:
Any Division II team that was being promoted will still be promoted.
Division I teams that would have normally been relegated will be kept in division I in order of their full year standings from the prior year, as needed to fill the Division I spots.
If more teams are needed, the teams that earned Division II byes will be promoted based on their full year standings from the prior year, as needed to fill the Division I spots.
Division II spots will be filled in the same order.
In Division III, additional byes will be granted to returning Lake Highlands teams, upto the number of byes forfeited, with remaining spots being filled in the Qualifying Tournament.

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Post by Packrabbit on 24/04/15, 10:01 pm

OLJW wrote:And here's the rest of it.

this takes place, the Age Division Commissioner must be informed at the time the roster is submitted.
*Examples:
75% of 14 players = 10.5 = 11 players
75% of 15 players = 11.25 = 12 players
75% of 16 players = 12 players
75% of 17 players = 12.75 = 13 players
75% of 18 players = 13.5 = 14 players
(2) If a club registers a team for a non-North Texas league, without that team also playing in a regularly scheduled
Division of Lake Highlands Girls Classic League, they will lose the bye most closely associated with the group of girls leaving the league. For example, if the majority of the girls are leaving from Division I, a Division I Bye will be forfeited by that club in each applicable age group. The Lake Highlands Girls Classic League will make available participation in a separate division with an abbreviated schedule and reduced league fee if a sufficient number of teams agrees to participate with sufficient notice for the coordination and scheduling of that division. The final decision as to whether or not a separate division would be viable will rest with the Lake Highlands Girls Classic League Board of Directors.
Open spots that are created by the above outlined situation, will be filled as follows:
Any Division II team that was being promoted will still be promoted.
Division I teams that would have normally been relegated will be kept in division I in order of their full year standings from the prior year, as needed to fill the Division I spots.
If more teams are needed, the teams that earned Division II byes will be promoted based on their full year standings from the prior year, as needed to fill the Division I spots.
Division II spots will be filled in the same order.
In Division III, additional byes will be granted to returning Lake Highlands teams, upto the number of byes forfeited, with remaining spots being filled in the Qualifying Tournament.
Exactly. Nice dig up on the rule OLJW...

Folks need to wary of duel rostering... It usually benefits the club more than your DD.

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Post by wxyz on 25/04/15, 07:58 am

Gophers, as usual, a good overall analyses...
Here are some alternative thoughts...

bwgophers wrote:
Actually, I think LHGCL would let them get away with 8 out of 16, but I have not seen that written anywhere (just to clarify, this ONLY applies to the case of the roster most directly affected by the club forming it's ECNL team).  The LHGCL rule as it is written talks about a "majority" of players.  With CPP in the mix, realistically, I believe that you could get away with as few as 5 or 6 "regular" players on the LHGCL team being holdovers from the U13 roster.  You would officially need 8-9 of those players on the NTSSA/LHGCL roster, but 3 of them could be there in name only, and the club could CPP 3 players from the ECNL roster every game.

Actually, you could get away with as few as 0 "regular" players on the LH team being holdovers from the U13 roster, and all ECNL players on the roster could be there in name only.  For example, they could have 8 on the roster returning from U13 (assuming U13 roster of 16), add 10 new players and CPP in 3 players from other teams and have 13 non-ECNL players playing in LH games.  When you have both ECNL and LH on the same day, and if all dual-rostered players are needed for the ECNL game, LH team has to survive without any ECNL players.

 Some or all of those players could be dual rostered to the ECNL team, as ECNL allows up to 30 on their rosters.  What the club does, is registers the ECNL only players as a separate team with NTSSA, but just doesn't register that team with LHGCL.  By LHGCL rule, that makes any of the ECNL players eligible to be CPP'd to an LHGCL roster for a game.

In reality, this means that a club needs a total player pool of ~28-30 players to field both an ECNL team and keep the top team's LHGCL bye.  If there is a second LHGCL team that is contributing a small # of dual roster players to ECNL, you may be able to get away with a pool of closer to 25 (I believe Texans '01 ECNL/Texans '01 LHGCL/Texans '01 White LHGCL is something like this).

So, in order to form an ECNL team and not surrender a bye, the club has to add a minimum of 10-12 players to the core of the U13 top team.  The question then becomes where do these players come from?  Outside the club?  From other teams within the club?

What then, happens to the teams where these extra players came from?  In some cases, teams will back fill with players that move up from D2, D3, PPL (i.e. Andromeda '01, among others). In some cases teams will fold (i.e. Sting '01 Guzman) and if the club has more D2/D3/PPL teams in the pipeline, they can cycle entire teams up to claim those byes.  In some cases, the club may not try or may not be able to attract enough quality players to form the ECNL team and still keep the top team's bye (D'Feeters '01/Sting '01).

At the end of the day, the situation really hasn't changed.  The top 15 or so players on each of the ECNL rosters are going to be ECNL "exclusive" and will not be playing regularly in LHGCL games, so there will be a talent drain of roughly 70-80 top players out of LHGCL at U14.  What is less predictable now, is how the shuffling of players to fill those 70-80 spots will fall out from year-to-year.

Actually, ECNL "exclusive" and talent drain of 70-80 top players out of LH will probably occur at U15, not U14.  At U14, some of those top players will play LH games when not conflicted from playing ECNL games.  For example, during Spring when there are few ECNL games, they will play LH games if they are on the roster (Taxans White).  Also, it may be easier for coaches to convince "top" players/parents to "help out" LH teams than to convince "marginal" players/parents to get "extra touches" at LH games.

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ECNL teams and LHGCL Empty Re: ECNL teams and LHGCL

Post by Guest on 25/04/15, 08:51 am

wxyz wrote:Gophers, as usual, a good overall analyses...
Here are some alternative thoughts...

bwgophers wrote:
Actually, I think LHGCL would let them get away with 8 out of 16, but I have not seen that written anywhere (just to clarify, this ONLY applies to the case of the roster most directly affected by the club forming it's ECNL team).  The LHGCL rule as it is written talks about a "majority" of players.  With CPP in the mix, realistically, I believe that you could get away with as few as 5 or 6 "regular" players on the LHGCL team being holdovers from the U13 roster.  You would officially need 8-9 of those players on the NTSSA/LHGCL roster, but 3 of them could be there in name only, and the club could CPP 3 players from the ECNL roster every game.

Actually, you could get away with as few as 0 "regular" players on the LH team being holdovers from the U13 roster, and all ECNL players on the roster could be there in name only.  For example, they could have 8 on the roster returning from U13 (assuming U13 roster of 16), add 10 new players and CPP in 3 players from other teams and have 13 non-ECNL players playing in LH games.  When you have both ECNL and LH on the same day, and if all dual-rostered players are needed for the ECNL game, LH team has to survive without any ECNL players.

You are correct here.  Not sure any of the '01's have taken it quite to that extreme this year, though.  From what I've observed and what I've been able to dig through on GotSoccer and ECNL, it looks like all 3 clubs that retained their top bye (Solar, Texans, FCD) have a group of somewhere between 5-8 players playing primarily on the LHGCL side , that were from the U13 roster of those teams.  DD's team has played some of these teams on days when there's been a direct conflict with ECNL, and I haven't seen a bare-bones bench yet.

 Some or all of those players could be dual rostered to the ECNL team, as ECNL allows up to 30 on their rosters.  What the club does, is registers the ECNL only players as a separate team with NTSSA, but just doesn't register that team with LHGCL.  By LHGCL rule, that makes any of the ECNL players eligible to be CPP'd to an LHGCL roster for a game.

In reality, this means that a club needs a total player pool of ~28-30 players to field both an ECNL team and keep the top team's LHGCL bye.  If there is a second LHGCL team that is contributing a small # of dual roster players to ECNL, you may be able to get away with a pool of closer to 25 (I believe Texans '01 ECNL/Texans '01 LHGCL/Texans '01 White LHGCL is something like this).

So, in order to form an ECNL team and not surrender a bye, the club has to add a minimum of 10-12 players to the core of the U13 top team.  The question then becomes where do these players come from?  Outside the club?  From other teams within the club?

What then, happens to the teams where these extra players came from?  In some cases, teams will back fill with players that move up from D2, D3, PPL (i.e. Andromeda '01, among others). In some cases teams will fold (i.e. Sting '01 Guzman) and if the club has more D2/D3/PPL teams in the pipeline, they can cycle entire teams up to claim those byes.  In some cases, the club may not try or may not be able to attract enough quality players to form the ECNL team and still keep the top team's bye (D'Feeters '01/Sting '01).

At the end of the day, the situation really hasn't changed.  The top 15 or so players on each of the ECNL rosters are going to be ECNL "exclusive" and will not be playing regularly in LHGCL games, so there will be a talent drain of roughly 70-80 top players out of LHGCL at U14.  What is less predictable now, is how the shuffling of players to fill those 70-80 spots will fall out from year-to-year.
Actually, ECNL "exclusive" and talent drain of 70-80 top players out of LH will probably occur at U15, not U14.  At U14, some of those top players will play LH games when not conflicted from playing ECNL games.  For example, during Spring when there are few ECNL games, they will play LH games if they are on the roster (Taxans White).  Also, it may be easier for coaches to convince "top" players/parents to "help out" LH teams than to convince "marginal" players/parents to get "extra touches" at LH games.

Outside of GK's, there's only 1 U14 DR player at Sting that I am aware of that is getting regular PT in ECNL, that is also playing LHGCL on a regular basis, and I could be wrong, but I don't think there's very many D'Feeters ECNL players suiting up for Diamonds on a regular basis.  There are a few at Solar/FCD/Texans that are playing both ways, but I would still venture to say that there's at least 50-60 girls that are playing ECNL exclusively (or pretty close to exclusively) at U14 this year.

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Post by 1more_dd_dad on 25/04/15, 11:50 am

No worries Goph... BTW, my understanding of what happened last year was minimum players to field team plus one, which would be eight returning. Could be wrong but thought that was what was agreed upon.

bwgophers wrote:
1more_dd_dad wrote:Just reading through some of this but the 01' Feet team did not try to fill a LHGCL bye and never advertised as such or offered that as an option.  A couple of parents asked but there was never any intention.  I doubt they will try with the 02's either but I could be wrong.

Apologies 1more.  Wasn't trying to disparage anyone.  I modified my statement in my previous post.
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