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LHGCL U12 Division Placement

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LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by SickofSilliness on 05/08/15, 08:01 am

Now that the teams are set, the next question is final division placement.  According to the LHGCL rules:

"If 50 percent of the players on a team (based on the roster as of April 1 of the previous soccer year, rounding fractions up to the next whole number*) are not retained by the team applying for a bye, the league bye will remain with the club however the Division placement in the league will be determined by the LHGCL Executive Board or designated board committee."

So, how should that determination be made?  Based upon percentage of girls from a lower division / percentage from same or higher?

In your opinion, how many girls from a lower division ("DI" teams adding DIII and Plano girls, or a "DII" team rebuilding primarily from a Plano DII team) should the league allow before the team should be moved down, or are their other criteria?

Clearly, the intent is that clubs keep the bye, but if the team is rebuilt at a less competitive level, its placement should be adjusted.

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by 10sDad on 05/08/15, 08:59 am

That's a tough question. No disrespect to Raisbeck, here...but I think they will be a good example for this discussion. Redknapp blew up after earning a DII bye. Raisbeck had a good season in Plano I last year to finish 2nd in PPL, but we saw the #1 PPL and #1 APL team not even make the 2nd weekend of qualifying...so, there is no guarantee that Raisbeck would have made LH D3....yet they are allowed to walk into Redknapp's D2 spot? Something just rubs me the wrong way on that.

I say...amend the rule to say if you don't keep N+1, and your bye is not successfully claimed, you drop down 1 division automatically. If you are D1, you drop to D2, D2 drops to D3, and D3 goes into the qualifier. The N+1 rule on the boys side is there to reward player development and stability. If you develop your players, and treat them (and the parents) right, you never have to replace more than one or two players a season - and making N+1 is never really a fear.

Regarding the number of players added from D3 or Plano teams onto LH teams, I think it's irrelevant where they played last year...there are some very good players surrounded by below average teammates in the lower leagues that wouldn't have any problem at all playing D1. You have to look at the individual player rather than what league their team played in last year.
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by ElClassico on 05/08/15, 09:10 am

If the coach is honest with him or herself they should look at the talent at this point, if they see that they will have a tough time competing at that level the coach should volunteer to drop for the good of the girls. But of course egos and the club probably won't allow that to happen.
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by SD34t#Soccer on 05/08/15, 10:08 am

The Redknapp bye stayed with the same team, now called LP Gerrard.  Coach Tom had to combine the teams of Carragher and Redknapp due to the limited number of players attending in June.  The new LP Gerrard team is at least half Carragher from what I’ve heard, with a player each coming from a mixture of Redknapp, Texans, Feet, and Spirit.  I see they are playing in the Summer Splash the next weekend, so that should give a glimpse of their team strength.  If history is any indicator, expect at least four guest players, likely from Elite to help get the push they need to stay in D2.  Raisbeck got the bye into LH from the disbanded LP St John team.  Raisbeck’s striker is a very good player and will score the majority of their goals.  Just not sure how strong the rest of their team is.

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by purplefrog on 05/08/15, 10:09 am

...And say that Raisbeck is dropped down to D3...would they move a team up from D3 to fill that spot? There are only 8 teams in D2 as it is...so you would think they would have to fill that spot. Personally, moving Dfeeters White up to D2, and Raisbeck down to D3 makes a lot more sense...
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by 10sDad on 05/08/15, 11:06 am

SD34t#Soccer wrote:The Redknapp bye stayed with the same team, now called LP Gerrard.  Coach Tom had to combine the teams of Carragher and Redknapp due to the limited number of players attending in June.  The new LP Gerrard team is at least half Carragher from what I’ve heard, with a player each coming from a mixture of Redknapp, Texans, Feet, and Spirit.  I see they are playing in the Summer Splash the next weekend, so that should give a glimpse of their team strength.  If history is any indicator, expect at least four guest players, likely from Elite to help get the push they need to stay in D2.  Raisbeck got the bye into LH from the disbanded LP St John team.  Raisbeck’s striker is a very good player and will score the majority of their goals.  Just not sure how strong the rest of their team is.
I've read your post a few times, and each time I only see one, single, solitary Redknapp player listed....yet you say the bye stayed with the same team, and they combined Redknapp and Carragher...sounds like Carragher (who was potentially being relegated to D2 Plano) is more or less taking the D2 LHGCL spot with a couple of additions....and trying to justify it by bringing in some RASE players in a pre-season tournament to look better than they are, before getting shellacked all season in LH....that's ethical and really great for the 11 year old girls. Embarassed
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by 10sDad on 05/08/15, 11:26 am

So, here is a novel idea for LH to consider....
They have 15 teams in D1, and each will play each other once in a shortened season due to the rain last year.  
They have 8 in D2, which is awkward, and 10 in D3.
They have teams mis-representing themselves to keep byes with the clubs.
It's just a mess....and the forcing almost all of D3 to requalify next year is kinda dumb.

Why not just combine D2 and D3 into a single 18 team division and sort it out next year?  (D1 next year will be top 10 finishers in D1, D2 will be bottom 5 from D1 and the top 5 from the combined D2/D3 division), the next 8 stay in D3, the bottom 5 of D2/D3 go to requalification.
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by jogobonito06 on 05/08/15, 11:34 am

History shows when a team returns 1 player (LP Redknapp), there is approximately zero chance that team will be as competitive as before.

History also shows LHGCL doesn't particularly care whether the club-owned bye lends to a competitive division. DT White 02, LP Keegan 03 among recent examples.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by ElClassico on 05/08/15, 11:43 am

10sDad wrote:So, here is a novel idea for LH to consider....
They have 15 teams in D1, and each will play each other once in a shortened season due to the rain last year.  
They have 8 in D2, which is awkward, and 10 in D3.
They have teams mis-representing themselves to keep byes with the clubs.
It's just a mess....and the forcing almost all of D3 to requalify next year is kinda dumb.

Why not just combine D2 and D3 into a single 18 team division and sort it out next year?  (D1 next year will be top 10 finishers in D1, D2 will be bottom 5 from D1 and the top 5 from the combined D2/D3 division), the next 8 stay in D3, the bottom 5 of D2/D3 go to requalification.

That simply makes too much sense...never will happen
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by dreadpirateroberts on 05/08/15, 01:51 pm

I think there is a chance they combine them.  Allbeit small. Are we supposed to find out 8/7?

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by RocketDog on 05/08/15, 03:01 pm

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out. As a former redknapp parent, I read these posts with particular interest.

For the record, there was no redkI wapp "team" that combined with carragher to form lp gerrard. As stated, there is one of the original redknapp players remaining.  The rest of redknapp found homes with the following: fcdallas elite, tx spirit, solar pulp, sting west, andromeda, and fcdallas central. 2 are no longer playing. One moved up to 03.

And there was movement on carragher as well. 4 players left to join fcdallas white, sting angell and dallas texans white. The remaining 7_8 carragher players plus 1 redknapp were then joined by a handful of lh d3 players, perhaps enticed by the d2 bye from the likes of d"feeters white and tx spirit red, and perhaps a couple others.

Knowing that gerrard is comprised of at least 50 percent former ppl players (I believe carragher finished the season @ 11th, which would have moved them to d2),  I would hope that lh takes rhis into consideration in assigning the bye. In truth, lp raiabeck, finishing 2nd in ppl d1 has more right to that bye, based purely on last years season and ranking, imo.
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by KnKsDad on 05/08/15, 05:54 pm

"The Redknapp bye stayed with the same team, now called LP Gerrard.  Coach Tom had to combine the teams of Carragher and Redknapp due to the limited number of players attending in June.  The new LP Gerrard team is at least half Carragher from what I’ve heard, with a player each coming from a mixture of Redknapp, Texans, Feet, and Spirit.  I see they are playing in the Summer Splash the next weekend, so that should give a glimpse of their team strength.  If history is any indicator, expect at least four guest players, likely from Elite to help get the push they need to stay in D2.  Raisbeck got the bye into LH from the disbanded LP St John team.  Raisbeck’s striker is a very good player and will score the majority of their goals.  Just not sure how strong the rest of their team is."

purplefrog wrote:...And say that Raisbeck is dropped down to D3...would they move a team up from D3 to fill that spot?  There are only 8 teams in D2 as it is...so you would think they would have to fill that spot.  Personally, moving Dfeeters White up to D2, and Raisbeck down to D3 makes a lot more sense...

To be clear, if I'm understanding correctly from the above quote, Raisbeck will be in D3 taking the St. John bye. It's the newly formed Gerrard team that will get the Redknapp bye in D2. Now if the league decides to drop Gerrard down to D3 also then I guess that would create an opening, but I suspect they like the idea of having LP represented in all three divisions regardless of their ability to be competitive (Elite excluded of course).

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by KnKsDad on 05/08/15, 06:02 pm

10sDad wrote:So, here is a novel idea for LH to consider....
They have 15 teams in D1, and each will play each other once in a shortened season due to the rain last year.  
They have 8 in D2, which is awkward, and 10 in D3.
They have teams mis-representing themselves to keep byes with the clubs.
It's just a mess....and the forcing almost all of D3 to requalify next year is kinda dumb.

Why not just combine D2 and D3 into a single 18 team division and sort it out next year?  (D1 next year will be top 10 finishers in D1, D2 will be bottom 5 from D1 and the top 5 from the combined D2/D3 division), the next 8 stay in D3, the bottom 5 of D2/D3 go to requalification.

Seems like a great idea to me. The only concern would be the weather effect of getting all 17 games in, but that same risk exists if they schedule each team playing each other twice in the current 8/10 team D2/3. Not sure if they would want to do it for this age group, but as I've said before, they could front load the schedule like they currently do for the HS age groups.

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by SD69 on 05/08/15, 06:28 pm

This sound like a good idea. If I may play devils advocate though, the teams currently in D2 could be getting the shaft if they have less than good year in 18 team division. Right now they are at least guaranteed a spot in 2016/17 LHGCL. If they end up in the bottom 7 of this theoretical D2 supergroup next year, they will be relegated. The argument can be made that if they end up in the bottom 7 that they shouldn't be in LH, but they earned their D2 spot last year and should be guaranteed the next two years in classic.
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by SickofSilliness on 05/08/15, 07:40 pm

RocketDog wrote:It will be interesting to see how this all pans out. As a former redknapp parent, I read these posts with particular interest.

For the record, there was no redkI wapp "team" that combined with carragher to form lp gerrard. As stated, there is one of the original redknapp players remaining.  The rest of redknapp found homes with the following: fcdallas elite, tx spirit, solar pulp, sting west, andromeda, and fcdallas central. 2 are no longer playing. One moved up to 03.

And there was movement on carragher as well. 4 players left to join fcdallas white, sting angell and dallas texans white. The remaining 7_8 carragher players plus 1 redknapp were then joined by a handful of lh d3 players, perhaps enticed by the d2 bye from the likes of d"feeters white and tx spirit red, and perhaps a couple others.

Knowing that gerrard is comprised of at least 50 percent former ppl players (I believe carragher finished the season @ 11th, which would have moved them to d2),  I would hope that lh takes rhis into consideration in assigning the bye. In truth, lp raiabeck, finishing 2nd in ppl d1 has more right to that bye, based purely on last years season and ranking, imo.


So when SD34t#Soccer claims that the new Redknapp team is a "combination" of Carragher and Redknapp, he is basically full of  pig

Isn't this EXACTLY why LHGCL adopted this rule?

I agree, it's very hard to assess a team based on who and where the new girls came from - some great girls playing in Plano.  But in a situation where 1/2 the team (arguably "the core") came from a PPL DII team - if LHGCL decides NOT to apply the rule here, then when???

It's not likely, given the fact that Springate initially had the bye, that this team was attracting top talent to make it stronger.

Similar questions could be asked about Texas Spirit.

A clear rule would certainly help, and remove all speculation until weeks prior to the start of the season.

(How are those CPP revisions coming?  Mad )

and no DI teams were relegated to DIII . . . kinda hard to claim they all "earned" their DII spot

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by canaryman on 06/08/15, 12:16 pm

Are there two Sting Gutierrez teams now? I notice there is a Sting G (Formerly Sting Hilton). Is that the same team that finished 15th in D1? Is there another Sting G (that finished 8th)? Did they combine and swap players?

Was just wondering who is who now...

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by RocketDog on 06/08/15, 12:20 pm

Canaryman......apparently you are not aware of the creation of the Sting "superteam" that occurred before signing?! My understanding is Hilton is coaching the #8 team, Gutierrez the #15. Players were combined, along with other top Sting players, in a sort of reorganization if you will.
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by canaryman on 06/08/15, 12:28 pm

RocketDog wrote:Canaryman......apparently you are not aware of the creation of the Sting "superteam" that occurred before signing?!  My understanding is Hilton is coaching the #8 team, Gutierrez the #15.  Players were combined, along with other top Sting players, in a sort of reorganization if you will.

Sounds serious... Rolling Eyes

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by Soccerboy on 06/08/15, 12:29 pm

My understanding is that there are 2 teams. One is a "super team" which was created by taking the best of Guit and Hilton. The other team is also good, but not "super". In either case Sting should keep both D1 byes

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by Cleansheets on 06/08/15, 12:41 pm

Soccerboy wrote:My understanding is that there are 2 teams. One is a "super team" which was created by taking the best of Guit and Hilton. The other  team is also good, but not "super".  In either case Sting should keep both D1 byes
Should they? Evil or Very Mad

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by RocketDog on 06/08/15, 12:43 pm

Sounds serious... Rolling Eyes[/quote]

This is 04 soccer, canaryman. EVERYTHING is serious.....
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by canaryman on 06/08/15, 12:45 pm

Seriously


Last edited by canaryman on 06/08/15, 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by SD69 on 06/08/15, 12:46 pm

??? How would Sting keep both D1 byes if the better players from the 15th ranked team left for the 8th ranked team. I can see the argument for the 8th placed team getting better, but don't understand the 15th seed getting better when losing their best players.
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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by canaryman on 06/08/15, 12:50 pm

SD69 wrote:??? How would Sting keep both D1 byes if the better players from the 15th ranked team left for the 8th ranked team. I can see the argument for the 8th placed team getting better, but don't understand the 15th seed getting better when losing their best players.

CPP of course!

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Re: LHGCL U12 Division Placement

Post by Soccerboy on 06/08/15, 01:05 pm

CPP will be the saving grace for a lot of under qualified teams. Who would you give the 15 spot to? Would you move Sting West up to D1? Though Sting West would probably be a better choice than the 2nd Guit/Hilton team, they are unknown despite adding 8 new "upgraded" players

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