Latest topics
National RankingsToday at 01:32 pmterps37
10 Girls Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)Today at 12:13 pmU90C
04 Boys Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)Today at 12:11 pmU90C
05 Boys Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)Today at 12:09 pmU90C
10 Boys Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)Today at 12:08 pmU90C
High School and DAToday at 11:23 amFroZone
07 DA 2019Yesterday at 08:31 pmcenTex
New Natl Guidelines: Limit Soccer to 8 mo/yr; less trainingYesterday at 04:47 pmsoccertx75
07 Girls Teams - U90C THE ROCK - AUSTIN - Nov. 15-17Yesterday at 03:02 pmU90C
Storm DamageYesterday at 12:48 pmsoccertard
07 Boys Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)Yesterday at 11:57 amU90C
11 Boys Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)Yesterday at 11:55 amU90C
Dallas Texans 2013G MochelYesterday at 10:17 amTexansMochel
12 Girls Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)Yesterday at 09:10 amU90C
FC Dallas 2011/2012 - Fondren21/10/19, 04:29 pmFCDallas01girls
08 Boys Teams - U90C THE ROCK - AUSTIN - Nov. 15-1721/10/19, 04:25 pmU90C
05 Boys Teams - U90C THE ROCK - AUSTIN - Nov. 15-1721/10/19, 04:23 pmU90C
FC Dallas 08G JDL Blue21/10/19, 04:01 pmFCDallas01girls
03B Classic League21/10/19, 03:00 pmsprint
Dallas TNT 09 Girls Open Spots21/10/19, 02:36 pmsoccersoccer2000
05 Girls Teams - U90C THE ROCK - AUSTIN - Nov. 15-1721/10/19, 10:19 amU90C
06 Boys Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)21/10/19, 10:18 amU90C
09 Boys Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)21/10/19, 10:17 amU90C
08 Boys Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)21/10/19, 10:15 amU90C
08 Girls Teams - VETERAN HEROES CUP (Nov 15-19)21/10/19, 10:14 amU90C
Log in

I forgot my password

Be An Athletic Supporter!
Donate and get this nifty tag!

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Pixel
Statistics
We have 13582 registered users
The newest registered user is Kedrick

Our users have posted a total of 194662 messages in 27351 subjects

FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by FBR07G on 21/06/16, 08:32 am

Updated 07 FBR as of 6/20/16. Only 07 teams with 3 or more games since March 1, 2016 are included in the FBR published rankings. All games in the U9 leagues and tournaments that "publish results" are included even if they are still 06/07 teams.  Both Traditional Aged and Age Pure teams are ranked together.  07s aren't going to QT, so this is the 07 group of teams for now.  Early League games were removed, so if your team moved up or down it could be a result of those early games dropping off.

SuperCopa:  Results were included in the data.  All Gold Teams were placed as Tier 1, and all Silver Teams as Tier 2. Only local 07 teams that play in 07 age group are included in rankings though.

Academy Summer League(ASL):  Results are not posted, so will not be included in FBR.

This will most likely be the final 07 FBR for the summer as Tourney's are done, ASL will not be included, indoor of any type has never counted, so nothing else to report on.  If 07s play King Tut and there are any changes, I will post then as well, otherwise after a couple Pre-season tourneys.

Team Names:  I have not updated with all the changes.  Andro West, Andro, Warriors and others and a coach or two have moved/changed, spring names are listed below, the 1st Fall FBR will have updated names/coaches.

Remember, ranking points are derived from who you play and their tier(not your own tier) and, how well the teams you play do.  
As always regulation scores are used for FBR, not OT and no PKs that determine game result(if known).  No U10 games are included in data.  FBR is presented as W/L/T not W/T/L.

Feel free to PM or email if you think there is an error with your team or if you have any questions.  GotSoccer is generally used to determine team name/coach/club, but sometimes I am unaware of recent changes.
FBR 07G June 21st 2016 June_210

__________________________________________________
FBR07G - email scores to FBR07G@mail.com
FBR07G
FBR07G
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 136
Points : 2193
Join date : 2014-08-19

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by FBR07G on 21/06/16, 08:43 am

Top 10 details since last FBR:

1: Kicks SC 3-1-1  in SuperCopa lost to Surf Hawaii and for FBR purposes Tied Solar 06AP team.
2: SRSA 2-2 in SuperCopa, lost to DTS and Surf Hawaii
3: LFS  DNP
4: Sting Flanagan 4-0 won PremierCopa
5: DTS 3-1 in SuperCopa lost to Surf Hawaii
6: Kicks-Rich DNP
7:  Solar Blue 2-2 in Premier Copa, losing to Sting Flanagan and Texan-Nguyen(2)
9:  D’Feeters Black DNP
10: FCD Webb 8-0 won Flamefest and Mckinney Summer Classic

__________________________________________________
FBR07G - email scores to FBR07G@mail.com
FBR07G
FBR07G
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 136
Points : 2193
Join date : 2014-08-19

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Guest on 21/06/16, 09:27 am

So let me get this strait you are now counting school year results in FBR? So two AP 07 teams can plan in 06 league and you wont count it, but an AP team can play a SY team/bracket and it counts? Love the consistency

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by FBR07G on 21/06/16, 09:32 am

bigtex wrote:So let me get this strait you are now counting school year results in FBR?  So two AP 07 teams can plan in 06 league and you wont count it, but an AP team can play a SY team/bracket and it counts?  Love the consistency

Clearly Stated:

All games in the U9 leagues and tournaments that "publish results" are included even if they are still 06/07 teams.  Both Traditional Aged and Age Pure teams are ranked together.  07s aren't going to QT, so this is the 07 group of teams for now.

So, Yes, nothing has changed, have all spring.

Please read the notes.

__________________________________________________
FBR07G - email scores to FBR07G@mail.com
FBR07G
FBR07G
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 136
Points : 2193
Join date : 2014-08-19

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Guest on 21/06/16, 10:07 am

Yes I can read Joe. But you may want to re-read your Supercopa comments-as you do not seem to be following it. You may want to check your work or re-word your assumptions.

Also, just because you made up your own FBR rule doesn't mean it is consistent. i.e. same age group games not counting unless they play in 07 divisions, but mixed age group results count. Which is opposite of other age group FBRs.

Your free to post whatever rankings you choose- with whatever rules you want to put in place, but you should probably expect questions when you create your own rules.



Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by FBR07G on 21/06/16, 10:11 am

FBR06 did not include u11 games, only u10, so again, you are incorrect.

__________________________________________________
FBR07G - email scores to FBR07G@mail.com
FBR07G
FBR07G
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 136
Points : 2193
Join date : 2014-08-19

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Guest on 21/06/16, 10:20 am

My comment on consistency was not specific to Supercopa- my comment on Supercopa was another error, but you will figure it out.

But let me help you with this one..here is the wording from FBR 06 FBR. U11 was 11v11.

All games in the U10 leagues and tournaments that "publish results" are included even if they are still 05/06 teams except if they played 11v11. However, only teams that are playing as 06AP teams are included in the rankings (players born Jan 1, 2006 and younger only). Any team with a Aug 05 to Dec 05 player has been excluded from the published rankings

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by FBR07G on 21/06/16, 10:28 am

Yes, in case you were unaware, 06s are going select and QT will be based on AP. Since AP teams could see how they stack up with other AP teams for QT, FBR06 went that route. FBR08 included both age formats in the 08 rankings. I clearly stated 07s are not going to QT and both age groups would be included(same as 08s) back in March. I have never stated only 07AP teams would be ranked. Again, please read the notes.

Your issue(well one of the many) will be resolved when games start up again as all teams will be AP in the fall. Perhaps I can get your sign off on FBR rules prior to fall season?

__________________________________________________
FBR07G - email scores to FBR07G@mail.com
FBR07G
FBR07G
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 136
Points : 2193
Join date : 2014-08-19

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Guest on 21/06/16, 10:49 am

Don't need my sign off, but are you trying to suggest nobody can comment on your FBR rules/assumptions?

You seem a little touchy. You are posting on an open forum- I know this is shocking but people may see it differently than you- clearly other FBRs don't see it the same way affraid

But sorry didn't mean to mess up your FBR 07 world....I will return to my corner now.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by FBR07G on 21/06/16, 11:08 am

Not at all. Challenge away, makes FBR stay sharp. For the most part I merely reposted what is already in the notes. FBR06-09 plus BWG all work together on how to handle questionable issues. BWG reviews our data from time to time. He makes suggestions at times(like a Big Tier 1 for 07s), and it is nearly always followed. Doesn't mean we are always right, but we try to be consistent. 07s and 08s in a different spot than 06s, so it was handled differently. SuperCopa, I followed FBR06s lead on including all the teams/games in data. And it was truly an olive branch on the fall FBR so we don't have this come up again in November when tourney's roll around.

__________________________________________________
FBR07G - email scores to FBR07G@mail.com
FBR07G
FBR07G
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 136
Points : 2193
Join date : 2014-08-19

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Big Orange DB on 21/06/16, 01:19 pm

bigtex wrote:So let me get this strait you are now counting school year results in FBR?  So two AP 07 teams can plan in 06 league and you wont count it, but an AP team can play a SY team/bracket and it counts?  Love the consistency

WHY YOU PICK ON BOOGER JOE? EVERYBODY KNOW WHO HE MAKE THE RULES FOR!!!

BOO-YAH!!!
Big Orange DB
Big Orange DB
TxSoccer Lurker
TxSoccer Lurker

Posts : 7
Points : 1253
Join date : 2016-05-25

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Guest on 21/06/16, 01:21 pm

[quote="FBR07G"] BWG reviews our data from time to time. He makes suggestions at times(like a Big Tier 1 for 07s), and it is nearly always followed. quote]

So just to be clear-you are saying BW agrees with you NOT including games played by two 07 teams if those games are not played in a U9 division/bracket (i.e. both teams playing up) and at the same time he agrees with you including the results from mixed SY divisions? That is what I am saying is inconsistent.

But if the great FBR originator (and general good guy) agrees with this logic- I will admonish myself immediately Very Happy

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Guest on 21/06/16, 01:33 pm

bigtex wrote:
FBR07G wrote: BWG reviews our data from time to time.  He makes suggestions at times(like a Big Tier 1 for 07s), and it is nearly always followed.  quote]

So just to be clear-you are saying BW agrees with you NOT including games played by two 07 teams if those games are not played in a U9 division/bracket (i.e. both teams playing up) and at the same time he agrees with you including the results from mixed SY divisions?  That is what I am saying is inconsistent.  

But if the great FBR originator (and general good guy) agrees with this logic- I will admonish myself immediately  Very Happy

Doesn't matter whether or not I agree with FBR07G.  What matters is that FBR07G is treating the data consistently and being transparent about it.  From the discussions I have had and the data I have looked at, that is the case.

I don't understand the difficulty...  FBR07G stated that games played in a U10 division of a league/tournament aren't counted.  Games played in U9 (whether AP or CY) will be counted.  That's what was stated at the beginning of the year, that's what's being stated now, and that's how the data has been handled.

You may agree with it, you may disagree with it.  That's fine.  But to claim that there has been inconsistency in how data has been handled and applied or that there has been a lack of transparency is false.  Not to mention that frankly, the level of change that including any U10 games between '07's would induce is pretty minimal.  Maybe it would move some teams up or down a spot or two.  Again, if a spot or two is bothering you that much, you are missing the point of FBR (or any ranking of U-little girls soccer teams).

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by jogobonito06 on 21/06/16, 02:02 pm

bwgophers wrote:... you are missing the point of FBR (or any ranking of U-little girls soccer teams).

OK I'll bite. What exactly is the point of ranking U-little girls soccer?
jogobonito06
jogobonito06
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 338
Points : 2177
Join date : 2014-10-30

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Guest on 21/06/16, 02:24 pm

jogobonito06 wrote:
bwgophers wrote:... you are missing the point of FBR (or any ranking of U-little girls soccer teams).

OK I'll bite.  What exactly is the point of ranking U-little girls soccer?

Information so that people can make more informed choices.

TD's/LD's so that they can put together brackets/divisions with appropriate levels of competition.
Coaches so that they can seek out leagues/tournaments with appropriate levels of competition.
Parents so that they can have some general insight into the relative level of competition for various teams, and maybe target a specific group of teams as possible good fits for their DD if they are looking for a team.




Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by My Money Pit on 21/06/16, 02:35 pm


OK I'll bite.  What exactly is the point of ranking U-little girls soccer?[/quote]

Bragging rights...any reason other than that is a long stretch...
My Money Pit
My Money Pit
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 112
Points : 2323
Join date : 2013-10-14
Location : Where the winds (or soccer matches) take me...

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Guest on 21/06/16, 02:38 pm

My Money Pit wrote:
OK I'll bite.  What exactly is the point of ranking U-little girls soccer?

Bragging rights...any reason other than that is a long stretch...[/quote]

Bragging rights and forum fodder come along for free... Twisted Evil

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Guest on 21/06/16, 02:46 pm

bwgophers wrote:
bigtex wrote:
FBR07G wrote: BWG reviews our data from time to time.  He makes suggestions at times(like a Big Tier 1 for 07s), and it is nearly always followed.  quote]

So just to be clear-you are saying BW agrees with you NOT including games played by two 07 teams if those games are not played in a U9 division/bracket (i.e. both teams playing up) and at the same time he agrees with you including the results from mixed SY divisions?  That is what I am saying is inconsistent.  

But if the great FBR originator (and general good guy) agrees with this logic- I will admonish myself immediately  Very Happy

Doesn't matter whether or not I agree with FBR07G.  What matters is that FBR07G is treating the data consistently and being transparent about it.  From the discussions I have had and the data I have looked at, that is the case.

I don't understand the difficulty...  FBR07G stated that games played in a U10 division of a league/tournament aren't counted.  Games played in U9 (whether AP or CY) will be counted.  That's what was stated at the beginning of the year, that's what's being stated now, and that's how the data has been handled.

You may agree with it, you may disagree with it.  That's fine.  But to claim that there has been inconsistency in how data has been handled and applied or that there has been a lack of transparency is false.  Not to mention that frankly, the level of change that including any U10 games between '07's would induce is pretty minimal.  Maybe it would move some teams up or down a spot or two.  Again, if a spot or two is bothering you that much, you are missing the point of FBR (or any ranking of U-little girls soccer teams).

Wasn't questioning the consistency in what he said, but the logic behind the rules he created and how they differ from FBR 06 for example. You already told me you would have treated same age groups teams playing up against each other differently (as you did when you did FBR). But I will move on.

As far as the impact of the movement of the rankings I don't know or care. For the most part I do not see any major issues in the results of the rankings- given the data and the tiers being used (now the tiers being used well that is another story). BW I do agree with your comment that I am “missing the point of FBR”. I fully agree with that statement- I am still struggling to find the overall redeeming developmental value of FBR.

But despite the limited value I personally put into FBR, I know others place a lot of importance in FBR. My questions/comments don’t require FBR 07 to change one thing he is doing. Anyone is free to post an FBR or any other rankings on this forum, using whatever methodology they choose to use. But to pretend that FBR postings are above question/debate is ridiculous. Therefore, I have no issue questioning the consistency of the logic in an “FBR” post- especially given the known coaches/team conflicts with the poster.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by FBR06G on 21/06/16, 03:21 pm

Ok sorry it took me so long to respond.  I know you were all just dying to hear my comments.   But I had an important nail appointment and they wouldn't give me my hand to type!    

So just a little feedback before my retirement since I am nearing FBR retirement ......

I chose to NOT include U11 games not because they were 11V11 but because I was trying to get the 06 FBR as close to AP as possible.  Which has been difficult because being the age cop on top of my full time job was time consuming.  But with the 06s going select so soon I felt that was the best thing to do.    I just felt like including U11 was not necessary with all the changes occurring with age pure.    In fact PT did offer 9V9 on one 05AP U11 division but I didn't include that either due to the age difference.   I believe that only had one 06AP team in it anyways.  

Originally I did have U10 11V11 games in my data but about half way through or maybe even more than half I took those games out and made an announcement as to why.    The reason was all those teams were going to go select as 05s not 06s.  

I believe the only thing different from the way I approach FBR than 07FBR does is that I hide all the traditional aged teams from the rankings where FBR07 put them in the rankings.  I have all my U10 games in my data just as FBR07 has all the U9 games in their data.    Just before I publish each week I hide any team that still used an 05 traditional player from mine.   I chose to do that since the 06s were so close to going select.    FBR 07 has more time and can wait for that to take care of itself when select separates the traditional aged 07 from the birth year 07 in academy.
FBR06G
FBR06G
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 375
Points : 2345
Join date : 2015-02-27
Age : 47

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by FBR07G on 21/06/16, 04:00 pm

I will say the other difference was some 07s played 7v7 and some played 9v9.  I really didn't have the time, and felt it was unnecessary to have 7v7 AP, 7v7 Traditional, 9v9AP and 9v9 Traditional rankings.  Again, whats the point?  All together was the most efficient way to do it, and why spend anymore time than I already do, on ranking 8/9 year olds?  Feel free to start your own.

There was 1 game(Between UAL/PT and Arlington) played 07 vs 07 in the 06 age group that I found, if added, the effect was nothing.  SRSA still #2, with 3 more points.  DTS, still would have 74 points, rank wouldn't change. All teams would be in exact same order. Danny you spent all day arguing for something that had zero effect.  Its you with an agenda/obsession as seen over the last 3 FBRs of PMs and posts. They aren't handing out scholarships due to FBR.  Note:  My transparency of the guidelines predates that game.

__________________________________________________
FBR07G - email scores to FBR07G@mail.com
FBR07G
FBR07G
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 136
Points : 2193
Join date : 2014-08-19

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Guest on 21/06/16, 04:15 pm

FBR07G wrote:Danny you spent all day arguing for something that had zero effect.


You nailed it! I am arguing consistency/integrity without concern for effect or impacts to team rankings. I fully understand why you don't get that.

You are right though- I have reached my post limit for the month.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by FBR07G on 21/06/16, 04:35 pm

bigtex wrote:
  I am arguing consistency/integrity without concern for effect or impacts to team rankings.  I fully understand why you don't get that.  

You are right though- I have reached my post limit for the month.  

Nothing to argue, rankings consistent and all data is accurate.

I am guessing PM's will come fast and furious to one of several people now.... Rolling Eyes

__________________________________________________
FBR07G - email scores to FBR07G@mail.com
FBR07G
FBR07G
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 136
Points : 2193
Join date : 2014-08-19

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by PowerKick on 22/06/16, 09:12 am

Almost missed the hilarious yesterday.. I assume one is Solar parent/coach, the other is Kicks. LOL

I would suggest you both come out fight for a duel. LOL

Come on, be a man!

PowerKick
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 163
Points : 1959
Join date : 2014-12-08

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by PrimeTimeSoccer on 01/08/16, 05:54 pm

Teams 1,2,5,8,10,20,21,31, (and more) are playing on Sundays in PrimeTime Clubs League

Teams List - https://events.gotsport.com/events/teamlist.aspx?showall=clean&eventid=53439
PrimeTimeSoccer
PrimeTimeSoccer
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 396
Points : 2446
Join date : 2014-08-14

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by brain damage on 02/08/16, 10:07 am

Yes, the data is accurate and all of the information is correct, based on the information you control.

1. You change the tiers every release.  I believe once you had over a dozen teams one week,  with half that the week before.  There are only truly 3 tier 1 teams at this point: kicks, solar, and Sting Flanagan aka solar purple with a dash of Texans south.  The #3 ranked team should do well in big travel tournaments. In this case, it would embarrass north texas.

2. You only release a new table after LFS increases their points (can fact check on past releases) after you have manipulated those tiers. 67, 73, 70, 74, 78. Losses against teams that are in reality tier 2 and 3, not 1.

3. Historically, tier 1 teams in ntx can compete nationally. LFS losing by a touchdown to a fellow tier 1 team in solar, only one spot above lfs, does not put lfs on that same level.  Convenient to put all of lfs opponents in tier one to make up for that obvious fact.  

4. You have put too much weight on the wrong leagues.

5. (For the audience) When LFS takes a knock, dont expect FBR to be published for at least a month, or until LFS gets a good result. Or, the tiers have been altered again.

The rankings do matter a year from now when seeding is done for lake highlands. It would be best if someone with more integrity took over.  One without a daughter on a 07 team (lfs) -- Now the cats out of the bag on who is publishing these. It all makes sense.

brain damage
TxSoccer Lurker
TxSoccer Lurker

Posts : 4
Points : 1181
Join date : 2016-08-02

Back to top Go down

FBR 07G June 21st 2016 Empty Re: FBR 07G June 21st 2016

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum