Re: LHGCL vs JDL

by ElClassico 30/08/16, 11:32 am

The "Big 5 club" that doesn't act like a big 5 club has been around longer than most, hence it's seen quite a bit of changes and somehow managed to survive. When a mighty name from England came knocking nobody answered the door which says a lot. That being said it would make a lot more sense to flip those teams in ECNL based on recent history and perception.

BTW if the system isn't working the parents would be the ones to Dribble a fix, but try telling an ECNL parent something is wrong with soccer in NTX.

by DDdad 30/08/16, 06:21 pm

bwgophers wrote:
SickofSilliness wrote:

So - all sarcasm aside - seriously what does JDL bring to the table to benefit 11-yr old soccer players?

In THEORY, the concept of JDL brings 3 benefits:

1) No standings or promotion/relegation removes the "necessity" of winning. In THEORY, coaches would feel more free to make coaching moves in games with the priority on "development" over winning. This would include (but not limited to), playing players in different positions and using different formations and/or tactical emphasis. Mistakes that alter the score line of a game, don't have ramifications to standings or promotion/relegation, so there would be an environment that is more more tolerant of trial and error, and which should benefit development.

2) Per Hodor and BigErn's points, a more consistent level of quality competition.

3) Roster flexibility to bring in players as the coach(es) see fit, to best help development.

Playing JDL exclusively, vs. JDL + LGHCL, comes down to following US Soccer guidelines regarding the ratio of practice to game play. US Soccer would NOT recommend playing in both leagues.

Again, all of those points are in theory. The question is whether or not the coaches and/or parents can put their egos aside to actually realize the potential benefits at hand.

I agree with all of these points. Years ago, there were a ton of threads about how to "fix" NT soccer. In 10 years, there will be a ton of threads about how to "fix" NT soccer. It was thought at that time by many that the pressure to win now was a negative toward Development. Too many riding the bench not developing, too many over the top balls in efforts to win games, avoid relegation, secure recruitment etc etc. Too many kids playing injured as the focus was on winning the points instead of being more reasonable with 9-10 year olds. I have one in JDL and am as curious as anyone to see if it pans out. In THEORY, it makes sense. Let some rosters be more fluid. You can borrow a player or two when a couple get hurt, sick etc instead of running the others into the ground. Points are not involved so no one cares. Mix them up some. See who does better up top or in the back. Change girls on teams and see who plays better with someone else. Those are all Positive for development.
Too many teams / coaches are focused so much on winning that they don't development the girls to playing multiple positions, different formations etc. On my eldest DD's ECNL team one of our top forwards played D1 on the backline and our top defender played D1 as a forward. Both are playing where they are now due primarily to injury but excelled at it. Let them play multiple positions. Let them learn the game and maybe it might even be more fun to not have all the pressure to win.

Will all this work? Who knows. Lots of forces against it. I never really thought it was broken but it could certainly be improved. Not sure what the downside is here to try it. We scrimmaged two other JDL teams this past weekend and I can assure you that would have never happened if we were playing for points. Never. We got two good games in and everyone got better. Sort of the point. My DD barely knew the difference between a game and a scrimmage. Uniforms were worn, parents were there. Game on.
Big 5, JDL, ECNL, power, control etc etc is a separate thread.

by soccerjack 30/08/16, 08:06 pm

Business principle: less competition means higher prices and less quality over time. Soccer is a business. When someone slams feet, for performance...they are missing the big ecnl club in Frisco that had no history and was notorious for not developing anyone at the younger ages and stealing them at ecnl age. They have finally hired good people, but the naivety of people out there is always a target. 99% of each group will not be affected by da.

It's funny to listen to the parents of 10 yr olds who think this stupidity will Change it all. Don't mean to be condescending but these coaches i.e....clubs for the most part are looking for revenue, which is fine by me until they create the illusion of 10 yr olds being preordained to the Uswnt if they come with them. Mark my words....in a few years there will be 3-5 jdl teams at each big club. Until they can find the next shiny object to sell the parents on.

by Soccersheep 30/08/16, 08:44 pm

DDdad wrote:
bwgophers wrote:
SickofSilliness wrote:

So - all sarcasm aside - seriously what does JDL bring to the table to benefit 11-yr old soccer players?

In THEORY, the concept of JDL brings 3 benefits:

1) No standings or promotion/relegation removes the "necessity" of winning. In THEORY, coaches would feel more free to make coaching moves in games with the priority on "development" over winning. This would include (but not limited to), playing players in different positions and using different formations and/or tactical emphasis. Mistakes that alter the score line of a game, don't have ramifications to standings or promotion/relegation, so there would be an environment that is more more tolerant of trial and error, and which should benefit development.

2) Per Hodor and BigErn's points, a more consistent level of quality competition.

3) Roster flexibility to bring in players as the coach(es) see fit, to best help development.

Playing JDL exclusively, vs. JDL + LGHCL, comes down to following US Soccer guidelines regarding the ratio of practice to game play. US Soccer would NOT recommend playing in both leagues.

Again, all of those points are in theory. The question is whether or not the coaches and/or parents can put their egos aside to actually realize the potential benefits at hand.

I agree with all of these points. Years ago, there were a ton of threads about how to "fix" NT soccer. In 10 years, there will be a ton of threads about how to "fix" NT soccer. It was thought at that time by many that the pressure to win now was a negative Dribble toward Development. Too many riding the bench not developing, too many over the top balls in efforts to win games, avoid relegation, secure recruitment etc etc. Too many kids playing injured as the focus was on winning the points instead of being more reasonable with 9-10 year olds. I have one in JDL and am as curious as anyone to see if it pans out. In THEORY, it makes sense. Let some rosters be more fluid. You can borrow a player or two when a couple get hurt, sick etc instead of running the others into the ground. Points are not involved so no one cares. Mix them up some. See who does better up top or in the back. Change girls on teams and see who plays better with someone else. Those are all Positive for development.
Too many teams / coaches are focused so much on winning that they don't development the girls to playing multiple positions, different formations etc. On my eldest DD's ECNL team one of our top forwards played D1 on the backline and our top defender played D1 as a forward. Both are playing where they are now due primarily to injury but excelled at it. Let them play multiple positions. Let them learn the game and maybe it might even be more fun to not have all the pressure to win.

Will all this work? Who knows. Lots of forces against it. I never really thought it was broken but it could certainly be improved. Not sure what the downside is here to try it. We scrimmaged two other JDL teams this past weekend and I can assure you that would have never happened if we were playing for points. Never. We got two good games in and everyone got better. Sort of the point. My DD barely new the difference between a game and a scrimmage. Uniforms were worn, parents were there. Game on.
Big 5, JDL, ECNL, power, control etc etc is a separate thread.

by DIDI ALLDAY 30/08/16, 09:51 pm

JDL will go down as nothing but a scrimmages league It's all on the players who wants it bad and really want to become something in soccer also having a great coach pushing them behind them on their good games/practices they have throughout the seasons but a player must know once you fall down you must get back up and continue fighting and work hard

by ElClassico 31/08/16, 12:15 am

Anyone ever think the girls just want to play and could care less about all this?

by Zizou 31/08/16, 05:45 am

All this change is the continued effort to move towards academy style training. This is the model that other parts of the world have proven to be successful method of working with younger players. Leagues, contracts, and being placed on one team trained by one coach will become a thing of the pass. Teams will become a revolving door for players to play at different levels. This system will allow for continuous movement of players up and down.

by AtThePitch 31/08/16, 06:42 am

The parents that signed contracts this July for kids on JDL only teams signed them as on the "JDL Team". So if the contract states JDL only, Fact Sheet states JDL only... how exactly does lets say Solar get away with telling little Suzy that she has just been placed on the Lake Highlands D3 team for the weekend, and possible extended future...

Does anyone here actually think the clubs in NTX will stop making players sign contracts?

sounds like a contract that was just broken by a club. So please explain how that is moving towards the global model of Barcelona, Ajax, etc...?

by Zizou 31/08/16, 06:55 am

The contract with the club will be to pay the club. Each age group will have multiple divisions Plano, lake highlands, Jdl, composite, ecnl, DA. Pools of players will be put in place to fill these teams with player movement up and down. Yes I said down also.

by AtThePitch 31/08/16, 07:00 am

The contract does not state that this year. So how will all this magical movement occur?

If what you are saying comes in the future, then I AM ALL FOR IT!

But how many NTX parents do you know that dont like guarantees and are all for watching their daughter compete, earn, and keep her spot on that magical unicorn team?

by venuechange 31/08/16, 07:40 am

Fact sheet or contract?
Contract we signed just says club name, age group.
Fact sheet has specific team but also has the fine print "subject to change, anticipated plan......" Allowing club to change about any detail.

by AtThePitch 31/08/16, 07:42 am

I know they dont all read that way. if your club was smart enough to do that and you all signed it... great for the club.

by Guest 31/08/16, 08:17 am

Zizou wrote:All this change is the continued effort to move towards academy style training. This is the model that other parts of the world have proven to be successful method of working with younger players. Leagues, contracts, and being placed on one team trained by one coach will become a thing of the pass. Teams will become a revolving door for players to play at different levels. This system will allow for continuous movement of players up and down.

Yeah, but true academies are not pay to play. The parents aren't paying, and the incentive for the club to maximize development is the value increase in the player's worth.

Here, parents pay, and the club's incentive to develop players is competing well, with knowledge that doing so will bring more paying parents. All these guaranteed, closed league structures and club centric management basically remove the competitive incentive.

So what's left? The parents money.

Looks to me we're moving towards an era even more beholden to well heeled parents using their means and political skills to guarantee their kid's participation...nothing like true academies.

by Zizou 31/08/16, 08:21 am

this is the way of the future. Open competition within clubs for spots. If you do not wish to compete you can play for the independent clubs. Rosters will be set Friday night prior to competition.

by AtThePitch 31/08/16, 08:28 am

Structure of NTX Prior to ECNL.

1. Lake Highlands Girls Classic League
2. Plano Premier League
3. Arlington League

Structure of NTX last year.

1. ECNL
2. Lake Highlands Girls Classic League
3. Plano Premier League
4. Arlington League
5. Primetime Select League

Structure of NTX this year
1.ECNL
2. Composite Team/Champions League
3. JDL
4. Lake Highlands Girls Classic League
5. Plano Premier League
6. Arlington League
7. Primetime Select League

Structure of NTX next year
1. Girls DA
2. ECNL
3. Composite Team/Champions League
4. JDL
5. Lake Highlands Girls Classic League
6. Plano Premier League
7. Arlington League
8. Primetime Select League

The number of bodies playing soccer has increased. The income stream has increased... but has the soccer gotten any better in the last 15 years?

Almost forgot about the academy side of things..

In the beginning there was..

1. SDL on sundays

Recent Years...

1. SDL on sundays
2. Primetime on sundays

Most recent yearrs...

1. Primetime still on sundays
2. UAL still on sundays

This year...

1. primetime on saturday and sunday
2. ual on saturday and sunday
3. SDL/The Pit League on saturday and sundays
4. Futsal year round

and Arlington has run an academy league all these years.. just not much action down there. lol

by Guest 31/08/16, 08:35 am

Zizou wrote:this is the way of the future. Open competition within clubs for spots. If you do not wish to compete you can play for the independent clubs. Rosters will be set Friday night prior to competition.

There is already open competition for spots within clubs. The difference is clubs have an incentive to make decisions on those spots based on what players can do on the field. Remove the competitive element, and those decisions can be based on nearly anything, without any negative impact to the club...i.e. who buys the coach season tickets...whose daughter goes to school with coach's kid...whose mom is the hottest...etc

And you're absolutely wrong about independents...they have the most competition because the ONLY way for them to accomplish their goals is to compete, win, and be recognized for the quality of their play. Nothing is guaranteed for them. If they don't earn it, there is no fallback.

by Guest 31/08/16, 08:54 am

I think more leagues / options is a good thing for the kids. More coaches, more voices, more different styles of training. All good.

All the CLOSED leagues at the top are steps in the wrong direction, IMO.

Only true academy level players, need to be in a closed league. And by true academy, I mean talent is driving the bus, and parents aren't paying.

You shouldn't be able to buy your way into an academy.

All levels below academy should be open, and have some element of competition. Make your bones competing before you get invited into an Academy. Everyone should earn theirs competing against all comers. Separate the wheat from the chaffe.

It doesn't have to be about winning for it to be about competition.

by ReformedHooligan 31/08/16, 08:59 am

Reading these posts, it seems most of these posters care a bit too much which league their dd plays in. If their kid didn't make a JDL team, it's all about money, or if they were on a LH team last year, and stayed with their team, they should have left it alone and not created JDL. Others are like - my kid plays JDL...that makes me an exceptional soccer parent....whatever.
Just find the team that challenges your daughter's development, and don't worry about the status thing. I switched my daughter from one team to another this year, as she had grown complacent with her coach, and was ready for the next level. Moved her up to a more challenging environment, and she is having to work hard in practice and games to earn playing time - but not so far up so that she gets discouraged.. I couldn't care less what league she plays in until she is 15 or 16 - just so she is developing. Once she hits that age, we will decide if she wants to play in college. If so, we seek out showcase opportunities...if not, we go to a lower league where she can be the stud and have fun. Pretty simple really, if you remove the parental pride out of the equation.

by Zizou 31/08/16, 09:22 am

4-3-3 wrote:
Zizou wrote:this is the way of the future. Open competition within clubs for spots. If you do not wish to compete you can play for the independent clubs. Rosters will be set Friday night prior to competition.

There is already open competition for spots within clubs. The difference is clubs have an incentive to make decisions on those spots based on what players can do on the field. Remove the competitive element, and those decisions can be based on nearly anything, without any negative impact to the club...i.e. who buys the coach season tickets...whose daughter goes to school with coach's kid...whose mom is the hottest...etc

And you're absolutely wrong about independents...they have the most competition because the ONLY way for them to accomplish their goals is to compete, win, and be recognized for the quality of their play. Nothing is guaranteed for them. If they don't earn it, there is no fallback.

Each to his own opinion on this one.

by Guest 31/08/16, 10:04 am

Zizou wrote:
Each to his own opinion on this one.

To clarify, not saying they play the best competition. As they get older, increasingly, they don't...mostly because of new structural barriers (closed leagues). They must travel and have enough quality to be exposed on a national level to play top competition.

My point is they face more competitive pressure to attain that level and stay there. They have to be good. No guaranteed national showcases even with a -50 goal differential and 2 wins to their name. No ability to have a DOC call up Jefferson or PDA and pull a favor to get a team placed that hasn't built a track record indicating they deserve to be there.

It's the reason 90% of parents would rather the kid play with a big rather than walk that tight rope. Which is fine. The point is, some of that 10% can turn out some amazing players, and their very existence puts checks on what the others can do.

The day independents are completely squeezed out will be a sad day for club soccer. And where is the evidence anyone can point to that closed systems have improved the quality of NTX players? If anything, a case can be made NTX is headed the other direction. The only NTX teams that have done much on a national level were formed with open systems....considering and taking on all comers.

by Zizou 31/08/16, 10:08 am

4-3-3 wrote:
Zizou wrote:All this change is the continued effort to move towards academy style training. This is the model that other parts of the world have proven to be successful method of working with younger players. Leagues, contracts, and being placed on one team trained by one coach will become a thing of the pass. Teams will become a revolving door for players to play at different levels. This system will allow for continuous movement of players up and down.

Yeah, but true academies are not pay to play. The parents aren't paying, and the incentive for the club to maximize development is the value increase in the player's worth.

Here, parents pay, and the club's incentive to develop players is competing well, with knowledge that doing so will bring more paying parents. All these guaranteed, closed league structures and club centric management basically remove the competitive incentive.

So what's left? The parents money.

Looks to me we're moving towards an era even more beholden to well heeled parents using their means and political skills to guarantee their kid's participation...nothing like true academies.

Until their is a way to create revenue without charging then this pay to play model will never go away. Unless you are willing to make a sizable donation!

by Guest 31/08/16, 10:09 am

ReformedHooligan wrote:Reading these posts, it seems most of these posters care a bit too much which league their dd plays in. If their kid didn't make a JDL team, it's all about money, or if they were on a LH team last year, and stayed with their team, they should have left it alone and not created JDL. Others are like - my kid plays JDL...that makes me an exceptional soccer parent....whatever.
Just find the team that challenges your daughter's development, and don't worry about the status thing. I switched my daughter from one team to another this year, as she had grown complacent with her coach, and was ready for the next level. Moved her up to a more challenging environment, and she is having to work hard in practice and games to earn playing time - but not so far up so that she gets discouraged.. I couldn't care less what league she plays in until she is 15 or 16 - just so she is developing. Once she hits that age, we will decide if she wants to play in college. If so, we seek out showcase opportunities...if not, we go to a lower league where she can be the stud and have fun. Pretty simple really, if you remove the parental pride out of the equation.

I don't think there's any relationship between what kind of person/parent you are based on your outlook and approach to extra-curricular activities.

If you do want to lecture us, consider using less "we". Have you picked out a college for your DD? I like the west coast.

by 5050Ball 31/08/16, 10:12 am

Sho'Nuff wrote:
ReformedHooligan wrote:Reading these posts, it seems most of these posters care a bit too much which league their dd plays in. If their kid didn't make a JDL team, it's all about money, or if they were on a LH team last year, and stayed with their team, they should have left it alone and not created JDL. Others are like - my kid plays JDL...that makes me an exceptional soccer parent....whatever.
Just find the team that challenges your daughter's development, and don't worry about the status thing. I switched my daughter from one team to another this year, as she had grown complacent with her coach, and was ready for the next level. Moved her up to a more challenging environment, and she is having to work hard in practice and games to earn playing time - but not so far up so that she gets discouraged.. I couldn't care less what league she plays in until she is 15 or 16 - just so she is developing. Once she hits that age, we will decide if she wants to play in college. If so, we seek out showcase opportunities...if not, we go to a lower league where she can be the stud and have fun. Pretty simple really, if you remove the parental pride out of the equation.

I don't think there's any relationship between what kind of person/parent you are based on your outlook and approach to extra-curricular activities.

If you do want to lecture us, consider using less "we". Have you picked out a college for your DD? I like the west coast.

by Zizou 31/08/16, 10:14 am

I like the way things are going. 30 players on the team with a pool of 30 more players breathing down their necks keeps my DD sharp. I am poor, so no extra money for coach gifts. We will know this Friday if she makes roster for Saturday game. Cross your fingers!

by Lefty 31/08/16, 10:40 am

Zizou wrote:The contract with the club will be to pay the club. Each age group will have multiple divisions Plano, lake highlands, Jdl, composite, ecnl, DA. Pools of players will be put in place to fill these teams with player movement up and down. Yes I said down also.

The model works in the rest of the works where the model is 'pay the players' and the players are an asset to be sold.

Think it remains to be seen if this model will work in a 'pay to play' model, particularly if the price is the same up and down the spectrum of where your child may be placed.

The model works great for the top 100 players in an age group who may be vying for D1 $, but many of the other players and their paying customer parents who may be looking for a more 'team' centric and stable environment will look for alternatives.

I have a hunch that the more the model is implemented and parents (customers) come to understand it, alternatives will emerge and the wide base of $ the big 5 garner from their lower level teams may migrate elsewhere.

by TatonkaBurger 31/08/16, 10:41 am

Zizou wrote:I like the way things are going. 30 players on the team with a pool of 30 more players breathing down their necks keeps my DD sharp. I am poor, so no extra money for coach gifts. We will know this Friday if she makes roster for Saturday game. Cross your fingers!

At 12 years old?

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