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DA1/DA2

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Ern on 07/05/17, 11:38 am

Little late here and am I ever surprised to be saying this ... but BBB actually started a worthwhile thread here.  Very entertaining and enlightening conversation!

As Bdub mentioned (100% spot on per usual), none of the Big 3 this year will be offering a DA2.  When it was being considered a couple of months ago, it was going to be structured similarly to the U13 DA ... so less commitment/travel than the full fledged DA.  

Bdub's questions about the sales pitch to parents/kids touting a DA2 option over ECNL are the same that most (me included) would have at this point.  From what I've heard from, and found to be the general contention of the powers that be, is ...

The competition at DA will be better than the ECNL in the short term, leading to more college coach exposure even for the upcoming year.  This, in the longer term, will lead to even more migration of top talent to DA which will eventually lend itself to the creation of DA2 here in NTX as well.

DA will offer discounted ('partially funded' may sound even more enticing to most) club dues going forward vs the ECNL being full priced, and the clubs would more than likely follow suit when the DA2 comes to fruition.

All of the DOCs and high end coaches at FCD and Solar I've spoken to anticipate and agree that the ECNL doesn't have much of a future remaining at their clubs.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by KeeperCommander on 07/05/17, 03:49 pm

BigErn wrote:Little late here and am I ever surprised to be saying this ... but BBB actually started a worthwhile thread here.  Very entertaining and enlightening conversation!

As Bdub mentioned (100% spot on per usual), none of the Big 3 this year will be offering a DA2.  When it was being considered a couple of months ago, it was going to be structured similarly to the U13 DA ... so less commitment/travel than the full fledged DA.  

Bdub's questions about the sales pitch to parents/kids touting a DA2 option over ECNL are the same that most (me included) would have at this point.  From what I've heard from, and found to be the general contention of the powers that be, is ...

The competition at DA will be better than the ECNL in the short term, leading to more college coach exposure even for the upcoming year.  This, in the longer term, will lead to even more migration of top talent to DA which will eventually lend itself to the creation of DA2 here in NTX as well.

DA will offer discounted ('partially funded' may sound even more enticing to most) club dues going forward vs the ECNL being full priced, and the clubs would more than likely follow suit when the DA2 comes to fruition.

All of the DOCs and high end coaches at FCD and Solar I've spoken to anticipate and agree that the ECNL doesn't have much of a future remaining at their clubs.
With it being a business will funding it cause an uproar enough that it disrupts the money coming from academy and other select teams.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Guest on 07/05/17, 03:58 pm

BigErn wrote:DA will offer discounted ('partially funded' may sound even more enticing to most) club dues going forward vs the ECNL being full priced, and the clubs would more than likely follow suit when the DA2 comes to fruition.

Serious question here BigE...

How are the clubs (especially Solar and Texans) proposing that they will fund discounted dues for DA and DA2? Sponsorship? Funding from USSF? Raising dues to the rest of the players in the club?

By my rough back of the envelope calculations, when you factor in travel costs, the DA dues will need to be reduced a minimum of $1500 in order to make DA/DA2 "cost advantageous" over ECNL.

That's ~$150k per year in revenue loss vs. full paying players for DA, ~$300k per year in revenue loss vs. full paying players for DA + DA2. Now, I'm sure some will make the argument that DA + DA2 will result in those clubs pulling in net additional players, but I think history and reality have shown that's a pretty sketchy argument. I published an analysis ~1 year ago that showed that the market share of top tier teams in NTX for the 5 ECNL clubs has essentially remained flat from before ECNL was in existence. The size of the overall talent pool in NTX doesn't change, and as much as people on this forum want to make you believe it, the data just does not support players/families flocking to these clubs to play on lower level teams when there are many other options out there in NTX.

Take FCD out of the equation, as they are different beast due to the revenue stream generated by the MLS club. To what extent do Solar and Texans offer 'partially funded' DA on the boys' side? Does everyone in DA at those clubs pay reduced fees compared to Classic League players, and is it of the order of $1500/year or more?

Seriously, I am not trying to be snarky here. I know very little about full blown finances of any of these clubs, and am I sure the folks running Texans and Solar are smart people and competent businessmen/women (insert snarky comments here about Solar for their past financial woes). So it is all together possible that I am missing something here, but on the surface, the numbers just don't seem to back up the claims that the clubs are making regarding reduced dues for DA, let alone DA + DA2, to make it truly cost advantageous to ECNL, like these folks are claiming.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Ern on 07/05/17, 05:07 pm

Great question Bdub --

I don't think you're missing anything, and the only information I have to this point is that club dues for both FCD and Solar will be reduced for Girl's DA kids this year.  We've heard numbers (and your math looks to be accurate) but have been asked to not discuss those at this point as they haven't been finalized ... I'm sure that they will be discussed thoroughly once made public.  

I have recently made a proposal to a club which, in my opinion, could substantially benefit the girl's DA cash wise but at this point, it is still sitting in 'proposal' status.  

FCD has the MLS side + Hunt fortune to back them and I hear Texans take in a ton of cash from their tourneys ... But for a club like Solar, outside of bringing in raw numbers + having a huge Youth Academy system, I'm not sure how they'll potentially compensate for the ~$150k (based on your calculations) hit.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Boy Bentley on 07/05/17, 05:19 pm

BigEm I knew who your Daddy was...you been cheating on your Girl ECNL. I think DA2 will be a lite version pool that will be fluid the goal.is DA1. Others will play 2nd Tier on down. Whether or not other follow or stay the course w their cash cow I just don't see more than 3 depending on the risk and cash Flow...it's am like everyone else on the financial liabiliry. It seems the clubs in ECNL had the or way and corner on that market but that was cash in and lobbyist...this is put of their contol now...



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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Boy Bentley on 07/05/17, 05:22 pm

BigEm I knew who your Daddy was...you been cheating on your Girl ECNL. I think DA2 will be a lite version pool that will be fluid the goal.is DA1. Others will play 2nd Tier on down. Whether or not other follow or stay the course w their cash cow the ECNL clubs now and future whatever it might stay or become.

I just don't see more than 3 going DA exclusively depending on the risk and cash flow...I am like everyone else on the financial liability not knowing the business side internally. It seems the clubs in ECNL had their way and corner on that market but that was cash in and lobbyist...thw DA is the Big Daddy now with their rules.


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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Ern on 07/05/17, 05:45 pm

Dammit BBB ...

I pay you a compliment then you have to ruin it with this vomit ^

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Boy Bentley on 07/05/17, 05:52 pm

De Plan De Plane...

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Boy Bentley on 07/05/17, 05:54 pm

I'm just giving you a hard time that's how I seenit playing out...we just need straight talk and not fake news...

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Guest on 07/05/17, 08:45 pm

BigErn wrote:Great question Bdub --

I don't think you're missing anything, and the only information I have to this point is that club dues for both FCD and Solar will be reduced for Girl's DA kids this year.  We've heard numbers (and your math looks to be accurate) but have been asked to not discuss those at this point as they haven't been finalized ... I'm sure that they will be discussed thoroughly once made public.  

I have recently made a proposal to a club which, in my opinion, could substantially benefit the girl's DA cash wise but at this point, it is still sitting in 'proposal' status.  

FCD has the MLS side + Hunt fortune to back them and I hear Texans take in a ton of cash from their tourneys ... But for a club like Solar, outside of bringing in raw numbers + having a huge Youth Academy system, I'm not sure how they'll potentially compensate for the ~$150k (based on your calculations) hit.

...and my point really goes towards the DA clubs using reduced fees to sell DA2 as an advantage over ECNL.  It's one thing to make up $150k in revenue to support reduced fees for DA, but double the size of the pool to include DA2 and have to make up $300k is a different story.  Then, what do you think happens to those DA2 discounts if they are successful in running ECNL out of business Question  Question  Question

BTW... pulled this from the Dash/Dynamo website under their DA information section.  $1800 dues + Unis + Player Travel.  So looks like my $1500 number was definitely ballpark.  Wouldn't be surprised to see similar numbers here in NTX.


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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by tpitty on 07/05/17, 10:28 pm

bwgophers wrote:
BigErn wrote:DA will offer discounted ('partially funded' may sound even more enticing to most) club dues going forward vs the ECNL being full priced, and the clubs would more than likely follow suit when the DA2 comes to fruition.


Take FCD out of the equation, as they are different beast due to the revenue stream generated by the MLS club.  To what extent do Solar and Texans offer 'partially funded' DA on the boys' side?  Does everyone in DA at those clubs pay reduced fees compared to Classic League players, and is it of the order of $1500/year or more?

Texans boys DA is funded minus travel expenses. No coaching fees, uniform fees, tourney fees, etc. Just get your kiddo to the match on your own dime.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by tpitty on 07/05/17, 10:41 pm

Guess Who wrote:FCDallas Pilot 02, is just like Pre Academy on the boys side. If some of the 02 aren't ready for the 01/02 DA they will train and play with the Pilot team. Don't really know who they will play or if they make any of  the traveling trips like  the 01/02 DA team will do. A lot of questions are still up in the air

The thought is the combo age group of 01/02 will be 01 strong. So rather than lose an entire team of girls in an age group (02), they play them against the same DA clubs in a league called PA. Every club is usually in the same situation so it makes for a good holding spot league. They play in the same showcases, and train on the same schedules.

Difference is, boys didn't have ECNL to fall back into, they either went PA or reshuffled back to classic.

DA model funnels kids down to only the most committed and elite at the combo ages, but clubs aren't exactly stoked to release them to the wild. Makes for the following combo age year to be a bit barren on the older kids.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Boy Bentley on 08/05/17, 07:08 am

How I see it it's going to be hard for these revenue inclusive clubs on the parents dime to do both. I agree TPITTY the sales pitch is to string along the sheep until it's official. Some people will take the bait others will wait and see when DA and DA2 is in full swing and who offers it won't hurt to have on the resume when shopping for teams later when the restrictions are mandated. To think it will be lite at U14 is naive then we can say ECNL and below will be affected. We know 3 are in the mix...BigEm knows that FCD has some big bucks supporting it. I realistically only see FCD doing both unless they decide otherwise fron the outside.The other clubs will either do DA or ECNL. It may be that way anyways...then it's another Tier.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by tpitty on 08/05/17, 09:17 am

BigboyBentley wrote:How I see it it's going to be hard for these revenue inclusive clubs on the parents dime to do both. I agree TPITTY the sales pitch is to string along the sheep until it's official. Some people will take the bait others will wait and see when DA and DA2 is in full swing and who offers it won't hurt to have on the resume when shopping for teams later when the restrictions are mandated. To think it will be lite at U14 is naive then we can say ECNL and below will be affected. We know 3 are in the mix...BigEm knows that FCD has some big bucks supporting it. I realistically only see FCD doing both unless they decide otherwise fron the outside.The other clubs will either do DA or ECNL. It may be that way anyways...then it's another Tier.

I am not agreeing with that statement. I was simply explaining what has/does happen on the boys side regarding the 02 Pilot Program, or what is commonly known on the boys side is known as PA. This is not at all concerning DA2.

If a kid wants to remain in the DA program, and continue DA type training while they wait their turn for next year, this is the clubs way of providing that atmosphere while still keeping a whole age group of kids in their club. This would be a one off year since DA stretches all the way down to U13 now as individual age group teams. Prior to the last couple of years, PA was common in more combo age groups.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Guess Who on 08/05/17, 09:32 am

bwgophers wrote:
BigErn wrote:Great question Bdub --

I don't think you're missing anything, and the only information I have to this point is that club dues for both FCD and Solar will be reduced for Girl's DA kids this year.  We've heard numbers (and your math looks to be accurate) but have been asked to not discuss those at this point as they haven't been finalized ... I'm sure that they will be discussed thoroughly once made public.  

I have recently made a proposal to a club which, in my opinion, could substantially benefit the girl's DA cash wise but at this point, it is still sitting in 'proposal' status.  

FCD has the MLS side + Hunt fortune to back them and I hear Texans take in a ton of cash from their tourneys ... But for a club like Solar, outside of bringing in raw numbers + having a huge Youth Academy system, I'm not sure how they'll potentially compensate for the ~$150k (based on your calculations) hit.

...and my point really goes towards the DA clubs using reduced fees to sell DA2 as an advantage over ECNL.  It's one thing to make up $150k in revenue to support reduced fees for DA, but double the size of the pool to include DA2 and have to make up $300k is a different story.  Then, what do you think happens to those DA2 discounts if they are successful in running ECNL out of business Question  Question  Question

BTW... pulled this from the Dash/Dynamo website under their DA information section.  $1800 dues + Unis + Player Travel.  So looks like my $1500 number was definitely ballpark.  Wouldn't be surprised to see similar numbers here in NTX.


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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Guest on 08/05/17, 10:52 am

tpitty wrote:
BigboyBentley wrote:How I see it it's going to be hard for these revenue inclusive clubs on the parents dime to do both. I agree TPITTY the sales pitch is to string along the sheep until it's official. Some people will take the bait others will wait and see when DA and DA2 is in full swing and who offers it won't hurt to have on the resume when shopping for teams later when the restrictions are mandated. To think it will be lite at U14 is naive then we can say ECNL and below will be affected. We know 3 are in the mix...BigEm knows that FCD has some big bucks supporting it. I realistically only see FCD doing both unless they decide otherwise fron the outside.The other clubs will either do DA or ECNL. It may be that way anyways...then it's another Tier.

I am not agreeing with that statement. I was simply explaining what has/does happen on the boys side regarding the 02 Pilot Program, or what is commonly known on the boys side is known as PA. This is not at all concerning DA2.

If a kid wants to remain in the DA program, and continue DA type training while they wait their turn for next year, this is the clubs way of providing that atmosphere while still keeping a whole age group of kids in their club. This would be a one off year since DA stretches all the way down to U13 now as individual age group teams. Prior to the last couple of years, PA was common in more combo age groups.

I understand the concept and have heard about it from the Boys side.  My only point in highlighting it, was that FCD is the only one of the 3 clubs that is openly advertising such a team.  Solar and Texans make no such mention of an '02 "Pilot", "PA", "DA2", etc. team.  Therefore, if I was a parent of an '02 that was trying out for FCD DA, and FCD was talking about this "Pilot" team, I'd be asking some very direct questions about the plans for this team.  Will they play in a league, and what league would that be, etc.

Otherwise, the published tryout and team offerings from all 3 NTX DA clubs are very consistent.  DA - U19, U17, U15, U14, U13.  ECNL - U19, U19 Composite, U17, U16, U15, U14, U13.  JDL - U12 & U11 for certain.  

The FCD DA '02 "Pilot" and U13 JDL is where the details seem a bit fuzzy and I'd be asking questions if I had a kid in those age groups.  TCL is another place I'd be asking questions, as details regarding that for next year appear a bit fuzzy as well.  

It's always possible that other discussions are going on behind the scenes regarding "Pilot" teams or DA2, etc., but nothing public or published that I have been able to find.  I'm not saying any of these will or won't happen, just giving my input on where things seem to be clear cut with detail vs. where details are a bit fuzzy and I'd recommend asking clear questions.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Guest on 08/05/17, 11:01 am

Guess Who wrote:
bwgophers wrote:
BigErn wrote:Great question Bdub --

I don't think you're missing anything, and the only information I have to this point is that club dues for both FCD and Solar will be reduced for Girl's DA kids this year.  We've heard numbers (and your math looks to be accurate) but have been asked to not discuss those at this point as they haven't been finalized ... I'm sure that they will be discussed thoroughly once made public.  

I have recently made a proposal to a club which, in my opinion, could substantially benefit the girl's DA cash wise but at this point, it is still sitting in 'proposal' status.  

FCD has the MLS side + Hunt fortune to back them and I hear Texans take in a ton of cash from their tourneys ... But for a club like Solar, outside of bringing in raw numbers + having a huge Youth Academy system, I'm not sure how they'll potentially compensate for the ~$150k (based on your calculations) hit.

...and my point really goes towards the DA clubs using reduced fees to sell DA2 as an advantage over ECNL.  It's one thing to make up $150k in revenue to support reduced fees for DA, but double the size of the pool to include DA2 and have to make up $300k is a different story.  Then, what do you think happens to those DA2 discounts if they are successful in running ECNL out of business Question  Question  Question

BTW... pulled this from the Dash/Dynamo website under their DA information section.  $1800 dues + Unis + Player Travel.  So looks like my $1500 number was definitely ballpark.  Wouldn't be surprised to see similar numbers here in NTX.


FCDallas Cost for DA is 1600; kit is paid for

So based on that, expected travel schedules, and pending the location for the National Showcases, my estimate is that DA will be somewhere between cost neutral and $1k cheaper than ECNL for a typical NTX player in 2017-2018.  In the neighborhood of $7-8k for U14 and above, assuming player + 1 parent travel to most out of town events.  Anybody disagree strongly with that?

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Boy Bentley on 08/05/17, 11:27 am

If BigEm.timelines are accurate we will have DA2 by the time it really counts and we won't even be talking about ECNL..the list will look alot different by then where clubs are aligned and who is still standing tall

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by TxFutbal on 08/05/17, 11:48 am

And the highschool memories of playing with your friends, playing in front of your friends cheering you on, the hopes of winning a state highschool championship, getting a letterman jacket, and having a social peer group in highschool is gone just so a bunch of money mongers want to control your girl's future for their own personal benefit. $5k per year, $10k per year, $2k per year.. who cares as long as we screw up our kids opportunity to have a normal childhood because the parents are drinking the kool-aide that his/her DD is going to play for the USWNT.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by ElClassico on 08/05/17, 11:48 am

All these questions...Funding discounted DA is simple, charge the non DA and non ECNL parents more. FCD already sticks the girls with funding all the scholarships on the boys side why not just raise the fees again? Once DA gets rolling do you actually expect these clubs to spend more than 2 minutes on their LH teams? And God help you if your DD is on one in PPL.

This will be the draw the smaller independent clubs will have, funds will help their DD not someone else's.
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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Boy Bentley on 08/05/17, 12:00 pm

This is where we are at some kids will draw to play everyday and other will play LH and maybe high school. My daughter is already talking that if the talent isn't there to play its not worth her time she would rather play for her club team and coach and focus her time outside of soccer somewhere else. DA isn't going away and if kids want to play everyday that for them. Most of the top kids play that much anyway how will it really be different? I'm not buying that it will change for them except how it's designed and where the eyes will be watching. The Happy Days w the Fonz is over. There's a league for everyone it's where your daughter wants to take it.

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by CBTeamworks on 08/05/17, 12:02 pm

What if DA2 becomes a thing:
-Are there enough top kids that want to play HS soccer?
-Do FCD, Solar and Texans drop ECNL?
-Do Sting and D'Feeters continue with ECNL?
-Is ECNL weakened to the point that there aren't enough college coaches scouting/recruiting it which makes it a poor value for parents?
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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by SickofStupidity on 08/05/17, 12:06 pm

ElClassico wrote:All these questions...Funding discounted DA is simple, charge the non DA and non ECNL parents more. FCD already sticks the girls with funding all the scholarships on the boys side why not just raise the fees again? Once DA gets rolling do you actually expect these clubs to spend more than 2 minutes on their LH teams? And God help you if your DD is on one in PPL.

This will be the draw the smaller independent clubs will have, funds will help their DD not someone else's.


Maybe, in the end, that is where it is headed.

At $1600 per player, DA includes coaching (multiple), coaches' travel, facilities, and tournament fees.  I can't see how this is break-even, so they will have to recoup money from somewhere else.

One way - carry 22 players instead of 18 - generates $6400 revenue

Another - push the costs to LH and PPL teams.


So maybe, in the end, we see a growth in independents?  Kids who want to play soccer, but don't see it as a career.  (and those wanting to play in college realize that they aren't at D1 level). Kids who want to play in HS.  Independent clubs will be able to support a fee structure below the DA clubs, as they don't have to carry the additional expense.

Now, if DA clubs are going to partially fund DA through LH and PPL teams, then how do they keep their enrollment up (to maintain the revenue stream) and compete against independents?  Probably not through "superior coaching".

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by RightWingDad on 08/05/17, 12:10 pm

ElClassico wrote:

This will be the draw the smaller independent clubs will have, funds will help their DD not someone else's.

How much longer do you think these Indy's will be around? I'd give most maybe another 2-4 years at best. I see a number of academy level teams/coaches are dwindling at these small Indy clubs. Without this feeder system can they possibly survive? At the older ages the challenge becomes a shrinking talent pool to replace for injuries and limited CPP when needed. Recruiting at these clubs can be a significant challenge.

Last year we saw some very credible Indy's go by the wayside, Andro, Mustangs and FWFC lost many teams (down to 3 boys and 2 girls teams now).

Will NTX look like Colorado or what's going on in STX? A few massive clubs with huge pools of players...and payers ;-)
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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Boy Bentley on 08/05/17, 12:21 pm

Business is built on what value the customer see in their product. We will drive the market in NTX. It will be what we make it...

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Re: DA1/DA2

Post by Big Ern on 08/05/17, 12:33 pm

TxFutbal wrote:And the highschool memories of playing with your friends, playing in front of your friends cheering you on, the hopes of winning a state highschool championship, getting a letterman jacket, and having a social peer group in highschool is gone just so a bunch of money mongers want to control your girl's future for their own personal benefit.  $5k per year, $10k per year, $2k per year.. who cares as long as we screw up our kids opportunity to have a normal childhood because the parents are drinking the kool-aide that his/her DD is going to play for the USWNT.

Ouch!  The Girl's DA has done gone and gotten TXFutbal a little riled --

I figured by now this was common knowledge, but to clarify, the Girl's DA is going to take only the top 3-4% of the kids in each age group (likely even more exclusive in the coming years) ... Plenty of kids will still be getting letterman jackets.  These kids are choosing this route over ECNL having knowledge of exactly what the commitment to DA soccer will entail ... In essence, they are trading the high school soccer experience for one that will all but guarantee that they get to play soccer in college.

As has been mentioned a couple of other times on this forum, most of the parents of kids that will be playing in the DA are pretty savvy folks ... We don't have unrealistic visions of our kid wearing the red, white and blue ... C'mon now.  And the DA clubs aren't money mongering when it comes to this program.  Quite conversely, they're discounting dues for those kids that have demonstrated that they are capable of, and willing to make this level of commitment, as well as offering a fantastic platform which can be used for the kids to achieve their goals.

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