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Talent Pool

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by Zizou on 10/07/17, 03:53 pm

Right!

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by CrazySoccerParent on 10/07/17, 05:33 pm

KeeperCommander wrote:
Zizou wrote:
KeeperCommander wrote:Ziz the insanity police have been called. You sir have reached a new level.

KC, been playing this game now for 10 years. My DD and I have been through all the changes. I speak from experience. What's your excuse?
You are speaking out of your ass.

Oh man that scene with Jim Carrey in Ace Ventura just popped into my head. Greatness.
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Re: Talent Pool

Post by KeeperCommander on 10/07/17, 06:04 pm

04GRankings wrote:
KeeperCommander wrote:
Zizou wrote:
KeeperCommander wrote:Ziz the insanity police have been called. You sir have reached a new level.

KC, been playing this game now for 10 years. My DD and I have been through all the changes. I speak from experience. What's your excuse?
You are speaking out of your ass.

Oh man that scene with Jim Carrey in Ace Ventura just popped into my head.  Greatness.  
Good movie

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by Zizou on 10/07/17, 06:38 pm

Great movie from the past. Just like ECNL in the pass three years. Some just came late to the ECNL party.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by HomeStretch on 10/07/17, 07:03 pm

Who cares if some ECNL players could've been DA. ECNL didnt consolidate all the talent in year 1.  DA wont either.

Key differences between DA vs ECNL taking over USYS scenario: 1) the playing format is not the same,  and 2) expectations from all involved are not the same (clubs,coaches,players).

ECNL and USYS were essentially the same product with one entity vastly superior at PR and marketing. DA and ECNL's differing formats will require DA players adopt different styles of play.

Year 1 or 2 won't tell the story nor will existence of a handful of great non-DA teams. 4 or 5 years down the road, even casual observers should be able to watch a DA game and distinguish the play from that of players who train less and dont play often within international rules.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by kick_tha_ball on 10/07/17, 07:38 pm

Zizou wrote:
KeeperCommander wrote:Ziz the insanity police have been called. You sir have reached a new level.

KC, been playing this game now for 10 years. My DD and I have been through all the changes. I speak from experience. What's your excuse?

So your "10 years of experience" has obviously afforded you the opportunities to watch every team and every "elite talent" from the 09s to the 99s and determine that all these elite players have gone soley to the top teams from D1 to DA. Lot of time you got on your hands. The gap won't be that great because not every top player will begin a DA team. Not every top player will want to give up bring a 12, 13, 14 year old kid yo get a full time job, which is what DA is. Plus, after a couple of years, some, not all, will realize they don't want that commitment and will migrate back. And some others will decide they do and it will all even out.

It also seems to be a consensus here that top colleges are only going to look at kids from DA clubs. No coach in their right mind is going to cut their player pool in half just because some choose not to give up volleyball or basketball. That jump shooting, center-mid just might be THE TOP PLAYER IN HER AGE GROUP. Jill Ellis won't pass up that player because she thought she made the wrong choice as a 13yr old.
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Re: Talent Pool

Post by ElClassico on 10/07/17, 07:44 pm

One thing everyone is glossing over in all of this...

The old system has proven itself with players at top colleges, national team players, international players and most importantly international trophies.

USSF has managed nothing with the men...for decades.

So before we start celebrating DA as the best thing since sliced bread while at the same time declaring ECNL dead, why not let it play out for a few years?
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Re: Talent Pool

Post by Guest on 10/07/17, 08:08 pm

HomeStretch wrote:Who cares if some ECNL players could've been DA. ECNL didnt consolidate all the talent in year 1.  DA wont either.

Key differences between DA vs ECNL taking over USYS scenario: 1) the playing format is not the same,  and 2) expectations from all involved are not the same (clubs,coaches,players).

ECNL and USYS were essentially the same product with one entity vastly superior at PR and marketing. DA and ECNL's differing formats will require DA players adopt different styles of play.

Year 1 or 2 won't tell the story nor will existence of a handful of great non-DA teams. 4 or 5 years down the road, even casual observers should be able to watch a DA game and distinguish the play from that of players who train less and dont play often within international rules.

Given that ECNL substitution rules are more in line with NCAA substitution rules than FIFA substitution rules, does that actually play to the advantage of ECNL players who will be more conditioned to go full-throttle for shorter periods of time?

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by Zizou on 10/07/17, 08:12 pm

kick_tha_ball wrote:
Zizou wrote:
KeeperCommander wrote:Ziz the insanity police have been called. You sir have reached a new level.

KC, been playing this game now for 10 years. My DD and I have been through all the changes. I speak from experience. What's your excuse?

So your "10 years of experience" has obviously afforded you the opportunities to watch every team and every "elite talent" from the 09s to the 99s and determine that all these elite players have gone soley to the top teams from D1 to DA. Lot of time you got on your hands. The gap won't be that great because not every top player will begin a DA team. Not every top player will want to give up bring a 12, 13, 14 year old kid yo get a full time job, which is what DA is. Plus, after a couple of years, some, not all, will realize they don't want that commitment and will migrate back. And some others will decide they do and it will all even out.

It also seems to be a consensus here that top colleges are only going to look at kids from DA clubs. No coach in their right mind is going to cut their player pool in half just because some choose not to give up volleyball or basketball. That jump shooting, center-mid just might be THE TOP PLAYER IN HER AGE GROUP. Jill Ellis won't pass up that player because she thought she made the wrong choice as a 13yr old.


No, but have a pretty good grasp of the 03-99 climate. All or none are strong words but a lot have just moved up with their ECNL teams. Also talking to the college coaches that have been recruiting my DD and all have said to move and stay with the players and the higher level of competition. This was the first question that was asked by my DD to these coaches and what they thought she should do.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by HomeStretch on 10/07/17, 08:13 pm

ElClassico wrote:One thing everyone is glossing over in all of this...

The old system has proven itself with players at top colleges, national team players, international players and most importantly international trophies.

USSF has managed nothing with the men...for decades.

So before we start celebrating DA as the best thing since sliced bread while at the same time declaring ECNL dead, why not let it play out for a few years?

You are not paying attention. The old system allowed the rest of the world to catch and in some cases pass the u.s. women despite us spending huge sums more money than most other nations and despite our player pool being 10 x larger. The youth national teams have struggled more than ever in the ecnl era
..that is when they've stepped outside of beating concacaf rec teams to a pulp (cough....grenada 22-0). Some of that is more the world deciding to care about women's soccer...some of that is weakness in the old system. US is now looking around the world trying to copy some of what Japan and the euro nations are doing. The olympics and the trajectory of the youth national teams should be enough for anyone paying attention to realize changes need to be made in our systems if we want to remain at the top of the womens game.

And I do wish parents would stop comparing the U.S. men to the women. Maybe 5 nations on the planet invest anything more than peanuts in women's soccer. The mens game is clearly a totally different animal in terms of competition. The men may not be winning world cups, but they are now sending more players to international clubs, and they're going at younger and younger ages. The demographics of the men's player pool are also changing rapidly...attribute a good chunk of that to DA.

Most importantly, top DA games resemble international level soccer far more than anything produced in the old system. DA has not been a silver bullet for the men, but it definitely has been an improvement over the old system by just about any measure. DA won't and shouldn't be for everyone. For the top tier though, it's just a matter of time before these type threads no longer exist.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by 5050Ball on 10/07/17, 08:13 pm

Considering 95% of D1 programs just kick and run, it should.
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Re: Talent Pool

Post by Zizou on 10/07/17, 08:15 pm

Hey, I'm with the majority here that a player at 11,12,13  years of age will not have to committ to DA and be able to participate is junior high sports and maybe even sports as a freshman.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by Zizou on 10/07/17, 08:17 pm

HomeStretch wrote:
ElClassico wrote:One thing everyone is glossing over in all of this...

The old system has proven itself with players at top colleges, national team players, international players and most importantly international trophies.

USSF has managed nothing with the men...for decades.

So before we start celebrating DA as the best thing since sliced bread while at the same time declaring ECNL dead, why not let it play out for a few years?

You are not paying attention. The old system allowed the rest of the world to catch and in some cases pass the u.s. women despite us spending huge sums more money than most other nations and despite our player pool being 10 x larger. The youth national teams have struggled more than ever in the ecnl era
..that is when they've stepped outside of beating concacaf rec teams to a pulp (cough....grenada 22-0). Some of that is more the world deciding to care about women's soccer...some of that is weakness in the old system. US is now looking around the world trying to copy some of what Japan and the euro nations are doing. The olympics and the trajectory of the youth national teams should be enough for anyone paying attention to realize changes need to be made in our systems if we want to remain at the top of the womens game.

And I do wish parents would stop comparing the U.S. men to the women. Maybe 5 nations on the planet invest anything more than peanuts in women's soccer. The mens game is clearly a totally different animal in terms of competition. The men may not be winning world cups, but they are now sending more players to international clubs, and they're going at younger and younger ages. The demographics of the men's player pool are also changing rapidly...attribute a good chunk of that to DA.

Most importantly,  top  DA games resemble international level soccer far more than anything produced in the old system. DA has not been a silver bullet for the men, but it definitely has been an improvement over the old system by just about any measure. DA won't and shouldn't be for everyone. For the top tier though, it's just a matter of time before these type threads no longer exist.


Agree,

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by kick_tha_ball on 10/07/17, 08:47 pm

Zizou wrote:
kick_tha_ball wrote:
Zizou wrote:
KeeperCommander wrote:Ziz the insanity police have been called. You sir have reached a new level.

KC, been playing this game now for 10 years. My DD and I have been through all the changes. I speak from experience. What's your excuse?

So your "10 years of experience" has obviously afforded you the opportunities to watch every team and every "elite talent" from the 09s to the 99s and determine that all these elite players have gone soley to the top teams from D1 to DA. Lot of time you got on your hands. The gap won't be that great because not every top player will begin a DA team. Not every top player will want to give up bring a 12, 13, 14 year old kid yo get a full time job, which is what DA is. Plus, after a couple of years, some, not all, will realize they don't want that commitment and will migrate back. And some others will decide they do and it will all even out.

It also seems to be a consensus here that top colleges are only going to look at kids from DA clubs. No coach in their right mind is going to cut their player pool in half just because some choose not to give up volleyball or basketball. That jump shooting, center-mid just might be THE TOP PLAYER IN HER AGE GROUP. Jill Ellis won't pass up that player because she thought she made the wrong choice as a 13yr old.


No, but have a pretty good grasp of the 03-99 climate. All or none are strong words but a lot have just moved up with their ECNL teams. Also talking to the college coaches that have been recruiting my DD and all have said to move and stay with the players and the higher level of competition. This was the first question that was asked by my DD to these coaches and what they thought she should do.

Well it's pretty obvious that you would want to play with the higher level of competition. But there is still no coach in America that is not going to scout/recruit a player just because she choose to continue playing basketball while still being a too soccer player. And yes it can be done. You don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
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Re: Talent Pool

Post by Zizou on 10/07/17, 09:10 pm

DA allows a player to be pulled from a roster to play another sport and then be placed back on the roster when done. Hey that special player has options they can explore.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by KeeperCommander on 10/07/17, 09:27 pm

HomeStretch wrote:
ElClassico wrote:One thing everyone is glossing over in all of this...

The old system has proven itself with players at top colleges, national team players, international players and most importantly international trophies.

USSF has managed nothing with the men...for decades.

So before we start celebrating DA as the best thing since sliced bread while at the same time declaring ECNL dead, why not let it play out for a few years?

You are not paying attention. The old system allowed the rest of the world to catch and in some cases pass the u.s. women despite us spending huge sums more money than most other nations and despite our player pool being 10 x larger. The youth national teams have struggled more than ever in the ecnl era
..that is when they've stepped outside of beating concacaf rec teams to a pulp (cough....grenada 22-0). Some of that is more the world deciding to care about women's soccer...some of that is weakness in the old system. US is now looking around the world trying to copy some of what Japan and the euro nations are doing. The olympics and the trajectory of the youth national teams should be enough for anyone paying attention to realize changes need to be made in our systems if we want to remain at the top of the womens game.

And I do wish parents would stop comparing the U.S. men to the women. Maybe 5 nations on the planet invest anything more than peanuts in women's soccer. The mens game is clearly a totally different animal in terms of competition. The men may not be winning world cups, but they are now sending more players to international clubs, and they're going at younger and younger ages. The demographics of the men's player pool are also changing rapidly...attribute a good chunk of that to DA.

Most importantly,  top  DA games resemble international level soccer far more than anything produced in the old system. DA has not been a silver bullet for the men, but it definitely has been an improvement over the old system by just about any measure. DA won't and shouldn't be for everyone. For the top tier though, it's just a matter of time before these type threads no longer exist.
The whole thing cannot be summed up as a system that failed. They bet on a group of players that did not pan out. Simple as that. NFL, MLB, NHL and yes Soccer do it every year.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by KeeperCommander on 10/07/17, 09:31 pm

Zizou wrote:DA allows a player to be pulled from a roster to play another sport and then be placed back on the roster when done. Hey that special player has options they can explore.
there are a crap ton of schools that salivate over multi sport players.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by db10 on 10/07/17, 09:39 pm

HomeStretch wrote:
ElClassico wrote:One thing everyone is glossing over in all of this...

The old system has proven itself with players at top colleges, national team players, international players and most importantly international trophies.

USSF has managed nothing with the men...for decades.

So before we start celebrating DA as the best thing since sliced bread while at the same time declaring ECNL dead, why not let it play out for a few years?

You are not paying attention. The old system allowed the rest of the world to catch and in some cases pass the u.s. women despite us spending huge sums more money than most other nations and despite our player pool being 10 x larger. The youth national teams have struggled more than ever in the ecnl era
..that is when they've stepped outside of beating concacaf rec teams to a pulp (cough....grenada 22-0). Some of that is more the world deciding to care about women's soccer...some of that is weakness in the old system. US is now looking around the world trying to copy some of what Japan and the euro nations are doing. The olympics and the trajectory of the youth national teams should be enough for anyone paying attention to realize changes need to be made in our systems if we want to remain at the top of the womens game.

And I do wish parents would stop comparing the U.S. men to the women. Maybe 5 nations on the planet invest anything more than peanuts in women's soccer. The mens game is clearly a totally different animal in terms of competition. The men may not be winning world cups, but they are now sending more players to international clubs, and they're going at younger and younger ages. The demographics of the men's player pool are also changing rapidly...attribute a good chunk of that to DA.

Most importantly,  top  DA games resemble international level soccer far more than anything produced in the old system. DA has not been a silver bullet for the men, but it definitely has been an improvement over the old system by just about any measure. DA won't and shouldn't be for everyone. For the top tier though, it's just a matter of time before these type threads no longer exist.

If you think the US Men's team is catching up to the world your are kidding yourself. Placing a player here and there in Europe isn't anything given the size of the country. How big is Costa Rica, Belgium, etc. It simply was bound to happen some time given the population of the US.

On the women's side the world is catching up because they are playing the sport, that's it. Not because our system is failing nor because it was special...it was simply Title IX forcing colleges to have women's soccer in the first place. 

DA is just another funnel to try and identify top players...ODP 2.0 except this time they managed to get the buy in of a few clubs. My guess is they realized they needed the financial backing to make it work.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by KeeperCommander on 10/07/17, 09:43 pm

db10 wrote:
HomeStretch wrote:
ElClassico wrote:One thing everyone is glossing over in all of this...

The old system has proven itself with players at top colleges, national team players, international players and most importantly international trophies.

USSF has managed nothing with the men...for decades.

So before we start celebrating DA as the best thing since sliced bread while at the same time declaring ECNL dead, why not let it play out for a few years?

You are not paying attention. The old system allowed the rest of the world to catch and in some cases pass the u.s. women despite us spending huge sums more money than most other nations and despite our player pool being 10 x larger. The youth national teams have struggled more than ever in the ecnl era
..that is when they've stepped outside of beating concacaf rec teams to a pulp (cough....grenada 22-0). Some of that is more the world deciding to care about women's soccer...some of that is weakness in the old system. US is now looking around the world trying to copy some of what Japan and the euro nations are doing. The olympics and the trajectory of the youth national teams should be enough for anyone paying attention to realize changes need to be made in our systems if we want to remain at the top of the womens game.

And I do wish parents would stop comparing the U.S. men to the women. Maybe 5 nations on the planet invest anything more than peanuts in women's soccer. The mens game is clearly a totally different animal in terms of competition. The men may not be winning world cups, but they are now sending more players to international clubs, and they're going at younger and younger ages. The demographics of the men's player pool are also changing rapidly...attribute a good chunk of that to DA.

Most importantly,  top  DA games resemble international level soccer far more than anything produced in the old system. DA has not been a silver bullet for the men, but it definitely has been an improvement over the old system by just about any measure. DA won't and shouldn't be for everyone. For the top tier though, it's just a matter of time before these type threads no longer exist.

If you think the US Men's team is catching up to the world your are kidding yourself. Placing a player here and there in Europe isn't anything given the size of the country. How big is Costa Rica, Belgium, etc. It simply was bound to happen some time given the population of the US.

On the women's side the world is catching up because they are playing the sport, that's it. Not because our system is failing nor because it was special...it was simply Title IX forcing colleges to have women's soccer in the first place. 

DA is just another funnel to try and identify top players...ODP 2.0 except this time they managed to get the buy in of a few clubs. My guess is they realized they needed the financial backing to make it work.
REVEREND!!

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by kick_tha_ball on 10/07/17, 09:52 pm

Zizou wrote:DA allows a player to be pulled from a roster to play another sport and then be placed back on the roster when done. Hey that special player has options they can explore.

There's no guarantee that player can get her spot back. Not every "elite" player that was on a clubs JDL or D1 is going DA. I just find it mind blowing that you have all this time to study every player at every club and gather all this information to make that claim. Abby Wambach played high school basketball while playing high level soccer. So your saying that if the next Abby or whoever is on a basketball or volleyball court, Jill Ellis or G Geurrieri or any other D1 coach is going to pass on her. U think not. A coaches job is to find talent not ignore it.
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Re: Talent Pool

Post by Zizou on 10/07/17, 09:59 pm

kick_tha_ball wrote:
Zizou wrote:DA allows a player to be pulled from a roster to play another sport and then be placed back on the roster when done. Hey that special player has options they can explore.

There's no guarantee that player can get her spot back. Not every "elite" player that was on a clubs JDL or D1 is going DA. I just find it mind blowing that you have all this time to study every player at every club and gather all this information to make that claim. Abby Wambach played high school basketball while playing high level soccer. So your saying that if the next Abby or whoever is on a basketball or volleyball court, Jill Ellis or G Geurrieri or any other D1 coach is going to pass on her. U think not. A coaches job is to find talent not ignore it.

Their are always exceptions buddy. But Jill Ellis is one that is pushing the DA model. If it wasn't a point of interest for them to focus on just soccer then why are they? Genius! I'm not the one making the rules. My DD is like everyone else trying to navigate all the changes.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by HomeStretch on 10/07/17, 10:03 pm

I didnt say the US Men are catching up to the world. I said the demographics of the men have changed, more players are going to Europe and at younger ages, and the top DA games look more like intemational soccer than usys of yesteryear. I implied based on those three observations that DA was an improvement.

We disagree on whether failures in US womens systems are part of the reason the world caught up. Once you acknowledge the trend in recent results, it doesnt much matter anyway. The point is whatever we had been doing has to be tweaked once you accept that countries with a fraction of the WNT budget and total #s in the talent pool have indeed caught and some surpassed our wnt in their ability to play attractive international soccer.

The vast majority of DA players will still be college bound, and I would expect to see fewer coaches using the anson platoon style of play as these DA bred players begin to come through....give it 5 years and let's see if the style of play begins to change in the latter rounds of the college cup.

As for your last point...DA and ODP have little to nothing in common...lost me with that.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by kick_tha_ball on 10/07/17, 10:13 pm

Zizou wrote:
kick_tha_ball wrote:
Zizou wrote:DA allows a player to be pulled from a roster to play another sport and then be placed back on the roster when done. Hey that special player has options they can explore.

There's no guarantee that player can get her spot back. Not every "elite" player that was on a clubs JDL or D1 is going DA. I just find it mind blowing that you have all this time to study every player at every club and gather all this information to make that claim. Abby Wambach played high school basketball while playing high level soccer. So your saying that if the next Abby or whoever is on a basketball or volleyball court, Jill Ellis or G Geurrieri or any other D1 coach is going to pass on her. U think not. A coaches job is to find talent not ignore it.

Their are always exceptions buddy. But Jill Ellis is one that is pushing the DA model. If it wasn't a point of interest for them to focus on just soccer then why are they? Genius! I'm not the one making the rules. My DD is like everyone else trying to navigate all the changes.

No. You're just the one claiming to know the talent level of every kid at every club. Maybe you should be running US Soccer.
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Re: Talent Pool

Post by Zizou on 10/07/17, 10:14 pm

Sure, Sleep

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by HomeStretch on 10/07/17, 10:22 pm

kick_tha_ball wrote:
Zizou wrote:DA allows a player to be pulled from a roster to play another sport and then be placed back on the roster when done. Hey that special player has options they can explore.

There's no guarantee that player can get her spot back. Not every "elite" player that was on a clubs JDL or D1 is going DA. I just find it mind blowing that you have all this time to study every player at every club and gather all this information to make that claim. Abby Wambach played high school basketball while playing high level soccer. So your saying that if the next Abby or whoever is on a basketball or volleyball court, Jill Ellis or G Geurrieri or any other D1 coach is going to pass on her. U think not. A coaches job is to find talent not ignore it.

The game has changed. If Abby were coming through now, she'd have a much harder time dominating using physical attributes. The type of players Jill or the top D1 coaches will salivate over may indeed have been multi sport athletes in their youth...but somewhere in early teen years they would've had to have chosen soccer as their top sport. The quality internationally in the younger generations is just not something the alex morgan / abby crowd had to deal with. A D1 coach may fill out his roster with these great, multisport athlete, low skill types today, but in 10 years we should hope the womens game has progressed to where those players cant even get starter spots on the back line of the top college programs...let alone leading the uswnt.

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Re: Talent Pool

Post by KeeperCommander on 10/07/17, 10:27 pm

HomeStretch wrote:
kick_tha_ball wrote:
Zizou wrote:DA allows a player to be pulled from a roster to play another sport and then be placed back on the roster when done. Hey that special player has options they can explore.

There's no guarantee that player can get her spot back. Not every "elite" player that was on a clubs JDL or D1 is going DA. I just find it mind blowing that you have all this time to study every player at every club and gather all this information to make that claim. Abby Wambach played high school basketball while playing high level soccer. So your saying that if the next Abby or whoever is on a basketball or volleyball court, Jill Ellis or G Geurrieri or any other D1 coach is going to pass on her. U think not. A coaches job is to find talent not ignore it.

The game has changed.  If Abby were coming through now, she'd have a much harder time dominating using physical attributes. The type of players Jill or the top D1 coaches will salivate over may indeed have been multi sport athletes in their youth...but somewhere in early teen years they would've had to have chosen soccer as their top sport. The quality internationally  in the younger generations is just not something the alex morgan / abby crowd had to deal with. A D1 coach may fill out his roster with these great, multisport athlete, low skill types today, but in 10 years we should hope the womens game has progressed to where those players cant even get starter spots on the back line of the top college programs...let alone leading the uswnt.
So you are saying the back line is where they put the ones that shouldn't start.

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