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LHGCL refs

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LHGCL refs

Post by Woodian on Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:37 pm

More than once this season the refs have completely lost control of games. It’s cost a couple of players injured. It’s so bad there have almost been fisticuffs in a couple of games. Girls are mouthy and simply ignore or walk all over the refs.

It’s been trending this way for a couple of years but this year is out of hand.

Is anyone else seeing this in their games?

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by Zizou on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:50 pm

Are you sure it has everything to do with poor referees? Level of play? Level of coaching?

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by Woodian on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:18 pm

Poor play/coaching is usually the initiating factor to the girls being slow or sloppy. However when girls are body slamming, two hand shoving, getting tackled by the goalie, and cussing at the ref with no call from him, that’s all on the ref. It’s happened to some degree in every one of our games this season.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by Zizou on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:28 pm

Players teams and coaches that have less talent tend to lean towards aggressive tactics.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by Woodian on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:42 pm

I mostly agree with you. However, crappy play doesn’t absolve the ref of being in control of the game. If anything, that means they have to call the game even closer so it doesn’t morph into a MMA match.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by RTD05 on Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:32 pm

Woodian wrote:More than once this season the refs have completely lost control of games. It’s cost a couple of players injured. It’s so bad there have almost been fisticuffs in a couple of games.  Girls are mouthy and simply ignore or walk all over the refs.

It’s been trending this way for a couple of years but this year is out of hand.

Is anyone else seeing this in their games?

Unfortunately, I think your observation is accurate. There seems to be more games with refs who do not do their job well enough to keep their games under control. Hopefully, that trend changes, but I’m not sure if anything proactive is being done to try to change that.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by Lefty on Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:41 am

Zizou wrote:Players teams and coaches that have less talent tend to lean towards aggressive tactics.

and since there are more less-talented skilled players than there are talented skilled players and teams, the lesser skilled players & teams try and compete (overcome skill gap) through aggressive and physical play.

Yes the refs and leagues could tighten up the calls, and encourage a skill based environment, but what impact would that have on participation levels ($)?

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by RTD05 on Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:08 am

Zizou wrote:Yes the refs and leagues could tighten up the calls, but what impact would that have on participation levels ($)?


Whether you call it “tightening up” the calls or just making the calls that should be made, that would tend to reduce injuries over time, which I think would increase participation levels.

If you are saying LH cannot hire good refs for all games without raising league fees, then I would love to see LH say that and tell us how much more LH believes it would cost. By the way, I think some of the refs out there are really good on a consistent basis, but then there is the other group ...

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by soccer1010 on Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:20 am

Poor play/coaching is usually the initiating factor to the girls being slow or sloppy. However when girls are body slamming, two hand shoving, getting tackled by the goalie, and cussing at the ref with no call from him, that’s all on the ref. It’s happened to some degree in every one of our games this season.

"Happened...in every game"???

Q: So what are the only constants "in every game" your team has played?
A: Your parents, your players, and your coaches.

Maybe you should start your analysis there.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by soccer1010 on Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:34 am

Woodian wrote:Poor play/coaching is usually the initiating factor to the girls being slow or sloppy. However when girls are body slamming, two hand shoving, getting tackled by the goalie, and cussing at the ref with no call from him, that’s all on the ref. It’s happened to some degree in every one of our games this season.


"Happened...in every game"???

Q: So what are the only constants "in every game" your team has played?
A: Your parents, your players, and your coaches.

Maybe you should start your analysis there.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by Lefty on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:19 pm

soccer1010 wrote:Poor play/coaching is usually the initiating factor to the girls being slow or sloppy. However when girls are body slamming, two hand shoving, getting tackled by the goalie, and cussing at the ref with no call from him, that’s all on the ref.

"Happened...in every game"???

Q: So what are the only constants "in every game" your team has played?
A: Your parents, your players, and your coaches.

Maybe you should start your analysis there.

I think it is the other way around.  

Players are slow or sloppy because of their level of athleticism, agility and speed.

Coaches and players then specifically try and compensate for that with the tactics highlighted above as aggression and physical play is a much quicker way to close the gap than skill.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by Bodhisattva on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:48 pm

Woodian wrote:More than once this season the refs have completely lost control of games. It’s cost a couple of players injured. It’s so bad there have almost been fisticuffs in a couple of games.  Girls are mouthy and simply ignore or walk all over the refs.

It’s been trending this way for a couple of years but this year is out of hand.

Is anyone else seeing this in their games?

Also, the grass is green.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by KeeperCommander on Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:41 am

Zizou wrote:Players teams and coaches that have less talent tend to lean towards aggressive tactics.
Very True.

Woodian wrote:I mostly agree with you. However, crappy play doesn’t absolve the ref of being in control of the game. If anything, that means they have to call the game even closer so it doesn’t morph into a MMA match.
Also very true.
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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by DallasMessi on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:17 am

Easy to blame the referees for the actions of the players.

Blame the parents
1. kids are a mirror of their parents.
2. Most parents would rather complain the go take the referee course and help out.

With that said, yes there are good and bad referees.

Still the responsibility is on the players, parents, coaches to teach fair play.



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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by rcjctcac on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm

Could not agree more, DallasMessi . I would have my kid off the field before the ref. had a chance to blow the whistle, so would her Coach.
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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by KeeperCommander on Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:53 pm

DallasMessi wrote:Easy to blame the referees for the actions of the players.

Blame the parents
1. kids are a mirror of their parents.
2. Most parents would rather complain the go take the referee course and help out.

With that said, yes there are good and bad referees.  

Still the responsibility is on the players, parents, coaches to teach fair play.  



Let me pile on here. You can blame the ref, parents, cartoons, friends whatever. Does not matter. The fact is there will always be those that take it to the next level with aggression. Those that take it to the next level and have the skill to back it up and even those that simply fall down in a light breeze. Let me be clear I am not talking about dirty play, just physical. Soccer is a physical sport it is not basketball where apparently you can not go near them anymore. You will run into folks and folks will fall down. Basic physics principles that you guys all failed in college. Way too much is blamed on the ref and parents when it is just soccer.
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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by DallasMessi on Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:01 pm

Also I have seen where many complaints are just the parent not understanding the rules.

Push in the back that ginuinely causes a player to go down (in opinion of a referee) in is a foul.

Shoulder to shoulder tackles to win the ball is not a foul unless recklass or dangerous.

Hand ball is a foul only if intentionally touched.

These are commo misunderstood rules.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by 7WhiskeyPapa on Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:40 pm

DallasMessi wrote:Also I have seen where many complaints are just the parent not understanding the rules.

Push in the back that ginuinely causes a player to go down (in opinion of a referee) in is a foul.

Shoulder to shoulder tackles to win the ball is not a foul unless recklass  or dangerous.

Hand ball is a foul only if intentionally touched.

These are commo misunderstood rules.

DM

Hand balls are misunderstood by parents and referees. You reference a foul only if intentionally touched. This is not true. Many refs have this "ball to hand" versus "hand to ball" distinction, relying on a common interpretation of intentional. But, the word in the rule is deliberate, not intentional. So, the issue really should come down to where the hand is when the ball hits it. If you have your hands straight up over your head, it doesn't matter if the 'ball hit the hands' because they were in a deliberately unnatural position. But, we often see referees allow a no-call when a shot is blocked by a defenders hands that are straight out, far from their sides. This should be a call because the hands are in an unnatural place, no matter if the player moved toward the ball or not. This has been discussed in referee clinics, but still there are some referees with significant experience who can't get this right.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by OLJW on Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:21 pm

FIFA definition

Intentional - a deliberate action (not an accident)

I didn't find a specific FIFA definition for deliberate, but it appears to be (not an accident).

I've seen handling called many times on player that had their back turned and never had a clue it was coming. Apparently they deliberately handled a ball they didn't know was there.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by 7WhiskeyPapa on Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:35 am

OLJW wrote:FIFA definition

Intentional - a deliberate action (not an accident)

I didn't find a specific FIFA definition for deliberate, but it appears to be (not an accident).

I've seen handling called many times on player that had their back turned and never had a clue it was coming. Apparently they deliberately handled a ball they didn't know was there.

That is exactly right. You don't have to intentionally touch the ball. You have to deliberately put your hands in an unnatural position (I believe that is the language used in the decisions). Turning your back is a perfect example. If I am in a one-man wall, and I turn away from the shooter but put my hands straight out, making me as big as possible, it doesn't matter that I didn't intentionally hit the ball, or swing at the ball, or take any additional action -- if the ball hits my outstretched hand, it is deliberate handling. Intention or ball to hand don't matter.

Intention likewise doesn't matter as to why my hand and arm may be in an unnatural position -- if they are outstretched, my intention is not a consideration. If the ball hits an outstretched arm, it is a foul. If the ball hits an arm in a natural running position, it is not a foul (unless I clearly put my arm in that position to touch the ball).

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by Medicine Man on Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:20 am

The refs have gotten as worthless as most coaches out there to pay their electric bill. It would be better to assign 2 parents from each team and pay them the fees.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by soccer1010 on Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:09 am

Medicine Man wrote:The refs have gotten as worthless as most coaches out there to pay their electric bill. It would be better to assign 2 parents from each team and pay them the fees.

Are you volunteering?  I'm sure we can find a ref class convenient for you to attend and would love to have your help.  Do it - I promise you'll be pleasantly surprised at how differently you watch a game.

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by SoccerPunch on Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:44 am

#SoccerLivesMatter

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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by KeeperCommander on Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:04 am

7WhiskeyPapa wrote:
OLJW wrote:FIFA definition

Intentional - a deliberate action (not an accident)

I didn't find a specific FIFA definition for deliberate, but it appears to be (not an accident).

I've seen handling called many times on player that had their back turned and never had a clue it was coming. Apparently they deliberately handled a ball they didn't know was there.

That is exactly right.  You don't have to intentionally touch the ball.  You have to deliberately put your hands in an unnatural position (I believe that is the language used in the decisions).  Turning your back is a perfect example.  If I am in a one-man wall, and I turn away from the shooter but put my hands straight out, making me as big as possible, it doesn't matter that I didn't intentionally hit the ball, or swing at the ball, or take any additional action -- if the ball hits my outstretched hand, it is deliberate handling.  Intention or ball to hand don't matter.  

Intention likewise doesn't matter as to why my hand and arm may be in an unnatural position -- if they are outstretched, my intention is not a consideration.  If the ball hits an outstretched arm, it is a foul.  If the ball hits an arm in a natural running position, it is not a foul (unless I clearly put my arm in that position to touch the ball).
Had a ref explain to me once that if you jumped in the air and your hands went up above your head that was considered a natural action and it could be conceived that it would not be a handling call if ball were to touch the players arm. Infuriating to say the least.
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Re: LHGCL refs

Post by DallasMessi on Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:37 am

putting your hands in an unnatural position (to make self bigger) is a deliberate/intentional act and is a hand ball foul, if that is the referee's opinion.

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