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Qualifying Tournament Format

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Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by goldy7 on Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:47 pm

Now that schedules are posted, does anyone know if LH has released the format for the qualifying tournament? With 52 teams I'm just interested what the process will be of selecting and eliminating teams.

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by OLJW on Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:04 pm

In the past it has been

13 brackets of 4. 13 bracket winners qualify for D1, they’re done.The 13 2nd & 3rd place teams plus the top 2 4th place teams move to week 2. Week 2, 7 brackets of 4. Bracket winners complete D1, Bracket 2nd place teams are D3 along with the top 3 3rd place teams.

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by goldy7 on Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:41 pm

That makes sense, thanks for the info!

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by OLJW on Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:33 pm

Almost forgot, the 2nd weekend MIGHT NOT be seeded based on the results of the 1st weekend. They can’t explain why, but it’s been done before. Leads to things like one bracket with three 2nd place teams from weekend #1 and other brackets with zero 2nd place teams from weekend #1.

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by Wannabe on Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:26 am


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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by SickofStupidity on Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:37 pm

They conveniently leave out how teams will be seeded for the second weekend, leaving it open to the "discretion" of LHGCL.

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by wittymgr on Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:54 pm

There's no "discretion" involved. For the last five years, the only adjustments between rounds has been to eliminate first round re-matches and 3+teams from the same club in the same bracket. Not sure who started the "reseed" notion.
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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by ForReal on Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:18 pm

wittymgr wrote:There's no "discretion" involved. For the last five years, the only adjustments between rounds has been to eliminate first round re-matches and 3+teams from the same club in the same bracket. Not sure who started the "reseed" notion.

This is simply incorrect.

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by wittymgr on Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:27 pm

ForReal wrote:
wittymgr wrote:There's no "discretion" involved. For the last five years, the only adjustments between rounds has been to eliminate first round re-matches and 3+teams from the same club in the same bracket. Not sure who started the "reseed" notion.

This is simply incorrect.
Let's wager on that...

Do some research and you'll find that I speak from experience.
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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by ForReal on Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:36 pm

wittymgr wrote:
ForReal wrote:
wittymgr wrote:There's no "discretion" involved. For the last five years, the only adjustments between rounds has been to eliminate first round re-matches and 3+teams from the same club in the same bracket. Not sure who started the "reseed" notion.

This is simply incorrect.
Let's wager on that...

Do some research and you'll find that I speak from experience.

You must have slept through 2015 for the 05s.  It's still listed as a top 10 most active thread: http://www.txsoccer.net/t27819-05-lhqt-bracket-analysis.

Still want to wager?  You might find that I speak from experience, too. Very Happy

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by wittymgr on Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:55 pm

ForReal wrote:
wittymgr wrote:
ForReal wrote:
wittymgr wrote:There's no "discretion" involved. For the last five years, the only adjustments between rounds has been to eliminate first round re-matches and 3+teams from the same club in the same bracket. Not sure who started the "reseed" notion.

This is simply incorrect.
Let's wager on that...

Do some research and you'll find that I speak from experience.

You must have slept through 2015 for the 05s.  It's still listed as a top 10 most active thread: http://www.txsoccer.net/t27819-05-lhqt-bracket-analysis.

Still want to wager?  You might find that I speak from experience, too. Very Happy
I stand corrected on 2015. I wasn't asleep, just tried to forget that one...
2014 - no reseed
2015 - reseeded
2016 - no reseed
2017 - no reseed
2018 - no reseed (sure of this)
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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by Disposessed on Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:29 pm

wittymgr wrote:
ForReal wrote:
wittymgr wrote:
ForReal wrote:
wittymgr wrote:There's no "discretion" involved. For the last five years, the only adjustments between rounds has been to eliminate first round re-matches and 3+teams from the same club in the same bracket. Not sure who started the "reseed" notion.

This is simply incorrect.
Let's wager on that...

Do some research and you'll find that I speak from experience.

You must have slept through 2015 for the 05s.  It's still listed as a top 10 most active thread: http://www.txsoccer.net/t27819-05-lhqt-bracket-analysis.

Still want to wager?  You might find that I speak from experience, too. Very Happy
I stand corrected on 2015. I wasn't asleep, just tried to forget that one...
2014 - no reseed
2015 - reseeded
2016 - no reseed
2017 - no reseed
2018 - no reseed (sure of this)
So by not reseeding, you are saying that if #1 thru #13 win week one, the #14 automatically has the perks of being the first team in bracket A of the second weekend, regardless of whether they could finish 1 point above relegation in the first weekend?  Man, D.C. has nothing on the LH swamp. Suspect

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by wittymgr on Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:30 pm

Disposessed wrote:
So by not reseeding, you are saying that if #1 thru #13 win week one, the #14 automatically has the perks of being the first team in bracket A of the second weekend, regardless of whether they could finish 1 point above relegation in the first weekend?  Man, D.C. has nothing on the LH swamp. Suspect
Wait just a second here... Isn't the prevailing thought that the seeding is done courtesy of the "great predictor" FBR? If FBR is super accurate, then tell me how the #14 seed would finish last? You can't have it both ways... Just sayin'.
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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by smugrr on Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:58 pm

I think what he is saying is that a team predicted to be close to making it in the first round, blows it and almost, no quite, gets eliminated and still retains that high seeding even though it did lousy in the first round?

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by NoSpinZone on Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:10 pm

smugrr wrote:I think what he is saying is that a team predicted to be close to making it in the first round, blows it and almost, no quite,  gets eliminated and still retains that high seeding even though it did lousy in the first round?

No person or ranking can foresee a total tanking, or a red card or SRSA players. Something happens every year or FBR or LH seeding would be 100% accurate.  I dont think there has been a year with all 30 teams making, that are seeded/ranked to make.

The team mentioned above will return to what got them their rank, or get eliminated.

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by Disposessed on Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:33 pm

NoSpinZone wrote:
smugrr wrote:I think what he is saying is that a team predicted to be close to making it in the first round, blows it and almost, no quite,  gets eliminated and still retains that high seeding even though it did lousy in the first round?

No person or ranking can foresee a total tanking, or a red card or SRSA players. Something happens every year or FBR or LH seeding would be 100% accurate.  I dont think there has been a year with all 30 teams making, that are seeded/ranked to make.

The team mentioned above will return to what got them their rank, or get eliminated.
The point is that they can kick back and cruise into the second weekend if they want with no downside. Where is the competition in that. All 2 and 3 seeds could agree on ties and let the 4 seeds duke it out to see which 3 go home. Just more big club bailouts by LH and FBR in a self-fulfilling prophecy. They should let points from the first week decide the second week placement and that would at least make up a little for the lameness of the marketing tool call FBR.

Glad we're not a bottom dweller, this weekend will be relaxing. lol!

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by ForReal on Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:56 am

Deleted.


Last edited by ForReal on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by RacerMartin99 on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:01 pm

Round 2 Brackets are posted.......and, as predicted on this forum, LHGCL did not re-seed using Round 1 results.  So, looking at the Round 2 brackets and focusing on the Round 1 results (points), it looks like the teams in Bracket C & D have the toughest road to Qualification.  Going off points accumulated from Round 1 ONLY, Brackets C & D feature the following teams:

Bracket C - #9, #10, #13 & #31
Bracket D - #2, #5, #17 & #28

On the flipside, two (2) brackets feature multiple teams ranked #30-#36 (again, off points accumulated in Round 1 ONLY):

Bracket E - #7, #11, #30 & #35
Bracket I - #6, #8, #32 & #36

Good luck to all 36 teams this weekend!

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by wittymgr on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:11 pm

ForReal wrote:I don't know what LH considers reseeding, but the new brackets are odd.  It looks like they generally started with the reverse snake, but then abandoned it when they got to the the new Bracket F.   Bracket F has no second place finishers.  Bracket C has 3 second place finishers. Almost like LH decided Americas FC's 3rd place finish with 10 points was given greater credit that Sting Asher's 2nd place finish with 18 points in the same bracket.  Was the result of the Americas-Sting Asher game entered incorrectly?  Something else?  Some brackets don't have 4th place finishers.  Three have 2 fourth place finishers. Doesn't seem like this one can be explained by avoiding rematches or too many clubs in one bracket.
I think this might explain the algorithm... Start with the week 1 snake to come up with the ranking order. Then remove the week one bracket winners and the three eliminated teams. Leave the remaining teams in the exact same order and snake through the 9 brackets. I think you will find that the brackets will flow from there. Don't try to use first round results to justify the second round seeds. It's fixed before the event starts.
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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by ForReal on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:20 pm

wittymgr wrote:
ForReal wrote:I don't know what LH considers reseeding, but the new brackets are odd.  It looks like they generally started with the reverse snake, but then abandoned it when they got to the the new Bracket F.   Bracket F has no second place finishers.  Bracket C has 3 second place finishers. Almost like LH decided Americas FC's 3rd place finish with 10 points was given greater credit that Sting Asher's 2nd place finish with 18 points in the same bracket.  Was the result of the Americas-Sting Asher game entered incorrectly?  Something else?  Some brackets don't have 4th place finishers.  Three have 2 fourth place finishers. Doesn't seem like this one can be explained by avoiding rematches or too many clubs in one bracket.
I think this might explain the algorithm... Start with the week 1 snake to come up with the ranking order. Then remove the week one bracket winners and the three eliminated teams. Leave the remaining teams in the exact same order and snake through the 9 brackets. I think you will find that the brackets will flow from there. Don't try to use first round results to justify the second round seeds. It's fixed before the event starts.

I deleted my comment before you responded as I see what LH did. True to the word of not reseeding whatsoever, but LH has used week 1 results in the past. Indeed, I think they did it last year. Am I wrong about that?

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by ForReal on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:20 pm

wittymgr wrote:
ForReal wrote:I don't know what LH considers reseeding, but the new brackets are odd.  It looks like they generally started with the reverse snake, but then abandoned it when they got to the the new Bracket F.   Bracket F has no second place finishers.  Bracket C has 3 second place finishers. Almost like LH decided Americas FC's 3rd place finish with 10 points was given greater credit that Sting Asher's 2nd place finish with 18 points in the same bracket.  Was the result of the Americas-Sting Asher game entered incorrectly?  Something else?  Some brackets don't have 4th place finishers.  Three have 2 fourth place finishers. Doesn't seem like this one can be explained by avoiding rematches or too many clubs in one bracket.
I think this might explain the algorithm... Start with the week 1 snake to come up with the ranking order. Then remove the week one bracket winners and the three eliminated teams. Leave the remaining teams in the exact same order and snake through the 9 brackets. I think you will find that the brackets will flow from there. Don't try to use first round results to justify the second round seeds. It's fixed before the event starts.

I deleted my comment before you responded as I see what LH did. True to the word of not reseeding whatsoever, but LH has used week 1 results in the past. Indeed, I think they did it last year. Am I wrong about that?

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by ForReal on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:20 pm

wittymgr wrote:
ForReal wrote:I don't know what LH considers reseeding, but the new brackets are odd.  It looks like they generally started with the reverse snake, but then abandoned it when they got to the the new Bracket F.   Bracket F has no second place finishers.  Bracket C has 3 second place finishers. Almost like LH decided Americas FC's 3rd place finish with 10 points was given greater credit that Sting Asher's 2nd place finish with 18 points in the same bracket.  Was the result of the Americas-Sting Asher game entered incorrectly?  Something else?  Some brackets don't have 4th place finishers.  Three have 2 fourth place finishers. Doesn't seem like this one can be explained by avoiding rematches or too many clubs in one bracket.
I think this might explain the algorithm... Start with the week 1 snake to come up with the ranking order. Then remove the week one bracket winners and the three eliminated teams. Leave the remaining teams in the exact same order and snake through the 9 brackets. I think you will find that the brackets will flow from there. Don't try to use first round results to justify the second round seeds. It's fixed before the event starts.

I deleted my comment before you responded as I see what LH did. True to the word of not reseeding whatsoever, but LH has used week 1 results in the past. Indeed, I think they did it last year. Am I wrong about that?

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by wittymgr on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:26 pm

ForReal wrote:I deleted my comment before you responded as I see what LH did.  True to the word of not reseeding whatsoever, but LH has used week 1 results in the past.  Indeed, I think they did it last year.  Am I wrong about that?  
You are wrong about last year. It was done the same way with the exception of perhaps removing match-ups from week 1 or cases where three or more teams from one club landed in a bracket.

There was one year in the recent past (2015) when week one was used to reseed (look up in this thread for that discussion).
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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by ForReal on Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:00 pm

wittymgr wrote:
ForReal wrote:I deleted my comment before you responded as I see what LH did.  True to the word of not reseeding whatsoever, but LH has used week 1 results in the past.  Indeed, I think they did it last year.  Am I wrong about that?  
You are wrong about last year. It was done the same way with the exception of perhaps removing match-ups from week 1 or cases where three or more teams from one club landed in a bracket.

There was one year in the recent past (2015) when week one was used to reseed (look up in this thread for that discussion).

Then I don't know what LH did last year.  I'm not going to pull out all the data and compare potential re-matches or multiple clubs in one bracket, but LH sure seemed to have used week 1 results last year for the 07s.  The order of the seeds for week 2 went (from week 1 brackets): F1, B2, G2, H1, E2, I2, A3, J2, D2, C2, B3, C3, A2, E4.  The respective points from those teams in week 1 were 24, 20, 20, 19, 19, 15, 19 (avoiding rematch), 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 10.

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Re: Qualifying Tournament Format

Post by shootalready on Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:22 pm

Can anyone explain the thought process on so many teams advancing to 2nd weekend? There are teams that finished last in their bracket, losing all their games and scored ONE or ZERO goals...how does this qualify to "advancing"? Thought the past structure of 7 brackets of 4 made sense, now it seems Round 1 just being repeated without the 1st place finishers.

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