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League Challenge Cup discussion

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League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by teddykgb on 16/11/18, 09:17 pm

Early feedback, borderline kneejerk, but a few interesting results already it seems...

FCD over Allegiance : 4-0
never saw a shutout coming here...

Solar over Sao Paulo : 12-2
maybe expected for Solar win, but 12 goals?

Santos over FCD Blue : 7-1
another probably expected win - but much more lopsided than expected

Looks like several good games scheduled for tomorrow too

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Coterminous on 19/11/18, 07:57 am

No soccer for us as we went up north for a long Thanksgiving time with the wife's family so this morning was the first time I was able to check the scores and wow. Seems like some great games. Very Close. Seems like its a 4 way race now with (Allegiance, Solar, Santos, and FCD Red) for top 09 teams. No one else seems close. Saw on social media the final went to 2nd OT period and FCD scored with a minute left. That was probably a great game to watch.

I did talk to someone who confirmed that Tigres/Solar South best player is now with FCD and played this weekend with them.

Santos and Allegiance are going to have to step up recruiting & training as the FCD machine kicks in and recruits top talent and replaces the dross. Look for lots of player movement this winter as the best kids from mediocre teams jump ship to top teams in preparation for Classic League.

Now back to my mother-in-law's pumpkin pie.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by schmuck on 19/11/18, 09:31 am

teddykgb wrote:Early feedback, borderline kneejerk, but a few interesting results already it seems...

FCD over Allegiance : 4-0
never saw a shutout coming here...

Solar over Sao Paulo : 12-2
maybe expected for Solar win, but 12 goals?

Santos over FCD Blue : 7-1
another probably expected win - but much more lopsided than expected

Looks like several good games scheduled for tomorrow too

Did any of these scores have anything to do with playing with full sized goals? I didn't catch any games but heard that at least some of the 08 games used a full sized goal at Foros. Not sure if any of the 09 games used the same field with the same goal. Obviously 09s playing will a full sized goal will result in a lot more scoring.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Golaso09 on 19/11/18, 01:35 pm

What a weekend lots to say. Was this result considered a win in the books for santos as it looks like they over achieved or is this really a wake up call for fcd red because for having the hand chosen personally recruited top players it doesn’t translate to any sign of dominance, I can’t say that they are near being that PSG 08 team they are trying hard to mimic .
Allegiance has shown inconsistencies when facing top teams , are they on a downfall if so that roller coaster is coming down really fast for them I’m still waiting to see the Pedro video and the stats of touches and possession and shots on goal on these matches,
Sao Paulo I don’t know what they were thinking never stood a chance maybe they need to go back to city futsal
Solar unproven to this point , just shows you how easy they have it in JCL propably the reason they worked their way into that D group
Fcd blue needs to be Fcd white

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Balotelli45 on 19/11/18, 03:42 pm

Golaso09 wrote:What a weekend lots to say.  Was this  result considered  a win in the books for santos as it looks like they over achieved or is this really a wake up call for fcd red  because for having the hand chosen personally recruited top players it doesn’t translate to any sign of dominance,  I can’t say that they are near being that PSG 08 team they are trying hard to mimic .
Allegiance has shown inconsistencies when facing top teams , are they on a downfall if so that roller coaster is coming down really fast for them I’m still waiting to see the Pedro video and the stats of touches and possession and shots on goal  on these matches,
Sao Paulo  I don’t know what they were thinking never stood a chance maybe they need to go back to city futsal
Solar unproven to this point , just shows you how easy they have it in JCL propably the reason they  worked their way into that D group
Fcd blue needs to be Fcd white

I agree there is no dominant team in the age group

FCD Red is number 1 with the the addition of the Solar/Tigres players, but they can be beaten.... Maybe as this team gels, they will become more dominant. Their other pick up people forget to mention, but is as important, especially at this age, is the new defender. When they want to play long ball, he can send it a mile, and normally shuts down his side of the field.


Santos - I definitely don't think they overachieved. They have a really good team, and play well together. Not sure why they have so many doubters.

Allegiance - Had trouble keeping the ball against FCD Red pressure in first game, and had a few defensive breakdowns which led to the first loss. If you lose the ball FCD will make you pay, and they did. The Santos game was a really good game as the 0-0 score showed. In the first half both teams had chances, and neither could capitalize. In the 2nd half most of the chances were for Allegiance, and they kept the ball on Santos half, but missed on alot of shots in and around the box. The 2nd game against FCD Red was closer by score, but in the 2nd half the ball lived on Allegiance side, FCD had a lot of shots on goal, with Allegiance having difficulty crossing half field and the score definitely could have been different...Also, one of our top players was not at the game, and as Coterminous mentioned, FCD is really deep.

Pedro doesn't broadcast the 09's as much... The 07's are an awesome team to watch. Win or lose. With some amazing skilled kids, and play an entertaining brand of soccer. The 09's are still learning...It is not easy what he asks the boys to do...But the 07's were never mentioned as a top 3 or 5 team before they went select. It's all about the development. We like to win....But it's nowhere near to number 1 on the list(it took me almost 2 years to say that)

Just keep watching...No downfall here...and yes my kid is on the 09 team...He might not post the videos, but the boys will see it during film review...

I didn't mention Solar because, I don't think they are at that level yet.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Coterminous on 20/11/18, 12:25 pm

What I find most interesting is that 2 of the top 3 09 boys teams are independent (Santos) or small academy team (Allegiance). Only big academy is FCD. The 09 Girls FBR just released and the top 9 are all big academies, #10 is a medium sized, the first independent team is #13.

Boggles my mind how Solar and DT can't produce a top 09 team. If FCD gobbled up Santos and Allegiance in Keller - they would have a 1 or 2 killer 09 teams. But usually FCD acts like the fat master and expects the top kids will eventually float their way so no need to develop at this age.

But for now, the fight will be on from the top 3 to poach Allegiance and Santos players. Or FCD realizes they have a top 3 team in their own backyard, training with one of their top DA coaches , and decides to merge Santos, would be smart of FCD but would Santos want it?

Also just a thought but now that Oscar is out at FCD, is any coach in the academy safe once the new regime comes in - assuming its an outside candidate? Vera the FCD 09 Red coach is an Oscar hire as the head Scout... I'd be nervous there

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by teddykgb on 20/11/18, 02:48 pm

I think it's possibly a bit premature to insinuate Solar and DT can't put together a top 09 team.

I don't think Texans had a team in the League Challenge Cup - and certainly not a team that has been assembled to try and put the clubs best foot forward. Maybe that's coming, maybe not - but guessing the talent is still spread out.

In terms of Solar - I suppose we can only go based on JCL league play and this tournament. They have coasted through league play and appeared to be very competitive against the top teams in Challenge Cup. 3-1 vs FCD and 3-2 vs Santos. By your accounts - those are both top 3. Curious if you saw any of the games or just looking at scores and who was in the finals. And Allegiance lost to FCD and tied Santos - are they no longer top 3?

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Balotelli45 on 20/11/18, 09:21 pm

teddykgb wrote:I think it's possibly a bit premature to insinuate Solar and DT can't put together a top 09 team.

I don't think Texans had a team in the League Challenge Cup - and certainly not a team that has been assembled to try and put the clubs best foot forward.  Maybe that's coming, maybe not - but guessing the talent is still spread out.

In terms of Solar - I suppose we can only go based on JCL league play and this tournament.  They have coasted through league play and appeared to be very competitive against the top teams in Challenge Cup.  3-1 vs FCD and 3-2 vs Santos.  By your accounts - those are both top 3.  Curious if you saw any of the games or just looking at scores and who was in the finals.  And Allegiance lost to FCD and tied Santos - are they no longer top 3?

I saw them play FCD, and the Santos game. That is why I made my statement...You can not go off just scores for this age.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by schmuck on 21/11/18, 09:17 am

teddykgb wrote:I think it's possibly a bit premature to insinuate Solar and DT can't put together a top 09 team.

I don't think Texans had a team in the League Challenge Cup - and certainly not a team that has been assembled to try and put the clubs best foot forward.  Maybe that's coming, maybe not - but guessing the talent is still spread out.

In terms of Solar - I suppose we can only go based on JCL league play and this tournament.  They have coasted through league play and appeared to be very competitive against the top teams in Challenge Cup.  3-1 vs FCD and 3-2 vs Santos.  By your accounts - those are both top 3.  Curious if you saw any of the games or just looking at scores and who was in the finals.  And Allegiance lost to FCD and tied Santos - are they no longer top 3?

I would say this is a correct statement. I have spoken to a few parents who play for the 09 Texans and they said the talent was spread pretty evenly between the two 09 teams. They have not stacked one or the other. That will likely happen next year when they form the Select team. Of course, then the issue will be how many of them get pulled up to DA a year early. What's left will form the Classic league team.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Soccerkat on 21/11/18, 12:16 pm

I did hear that during the Solar vs Santos game a red card was given (which was a poor call, as the rules state no straight red card should be given unless a pure fight). The red card was given just minutes into the second half. The score was 3-0, until the red card. Santos played practically an entire half a man down and still won.

Just an interesting thing to note, since scores don't always tell the entire story.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by coachdom23 on 21/11/18, 02:48 pm

Soccerkat wrote:I did hear that during the Solar vs Santos game a red card was given (which was a poor call, as the rules state no straight red card should be given unless a pure fight).

Was that really a tournament rule or sarcasm?
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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by upper95 on 21/11/18, 08:49 pm

coachdom23 wrote:
Soccerkat wrote:I did hear that during the Solar vs Santos game a red card was given (which was a poor call, as the rules state no straight red card should be given unless a pure fight).

Was that really a tournament rule or sarcasm?


of course there was no such rule.   rules did specify punishments for certain types of send-offs, e.g.,  a send-off for fighting subjected the offender to expulsion from the tournament.  This US Club Soccer sanctioned tournament applies FIFA laws unless specifically overridden.

https://www.u90c.com/documents

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Soccerkat on 25/11/18, 01:33 pm

Here are the direct rules Upper95. Very specific and that kid did none of the below.

Law 12 of the Laws of the Game lists the categories of misconduct for which a player may be sent off. These are:
1.Serious foul play
2.Violent conduct
3.Spitting at an opponent or any other person
4.Denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within their own penalty area)
5.Deliberate fouls that deny an obvious goal scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player's goal (D.O.G.S.O.)[5]
6.Using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
7.Receiving a second caution in the same match[1]:39

I.e. pretty much a fight

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by upper95 on 25/11/18, 11:24 pm

Soccerkat wrote:Here are the direct rules Upper95. Very specific and that kid did none of the below.

Law 12 of the Laws of the Game lists the categories of misconduct for which a player may be sent off. These are:
1.Serious foul play
2.Violent conduct
3.Spitting at an opponent or any other person
4.Denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within their own penalty area)
5.Deliberate fouls that deny an obvious goal scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player's goal (D.O.G.S.O.)[5]
6.Using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
7.Receiving a second caution in the same match[1]:39

I.e. pretty much a fight Shocked

Neither the tournament rules nor the Laws of the Game specify that there can only be a send off for fighting. If you are trying to plead that the player was shown a red card for no reason, that he wasn't fighting ( #2 violent conduct), it was probably #1 or #6.

If you would care to describe the play where he was sent off we may be able to help you.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by coachdom23 on 26/11/18, 12:04 am

Soccerkat wrote:Here are the direct rules Upper95. Very specific and that kid did none of the below.

Law 12 of the Laws of the Game lists the categories of misconduct for which a player may be sent off. These are:
1.Serious foul play
2.Violent conduct
3.Spitting at an opponent or any other person
4.Denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within their own penalty area)
5.Deliberate fouls that deny an obvious goal scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player's goal (D.O.G.S.O.)[5]
6.Using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
7.Receiving a second caution in the same match[1]:39

I.e. pretty much a fight

1. Are you saying these 7 things constitute fighting? Are you aware that players can be guilty of one of these 7 things, especially #7, without there being a fight?

2. Your previous post said you “did hear that ... a red card was given.” So, you didn’t see the incident, but now say he did none of the 7 things listed. If he did not do any of these 7, why did he receive a red card? Please ask someone who saw the incident and then reply.
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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Soccerkat on 26/11/18, 09:01 am

I have spoken to several people who were at the game and none of the above occurred. The kid was given a direct red card and sent out of the remainder of the game, the team played short. The kid did none of the above 7 things.

Furthermore, the card was revoked and he was allowed to play in the finals game. Why would the red card have been revoked if it was a valid call?


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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by teddykgb on 26/11/18, 09:52 am

odd...i spoke w/ someone at the game and was told it was a trip from behind - with no defenders between him and the goal - which warranted red. i guess maybe it depends on who you talk to ...which is often the case...all about perspective.

in terms of why it was revoked...i can imagine lots of reasons...some valid, some not

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by upper95 on 26/11/18, 10:56 am

Soccerkat wrote:I have spoken to several people who were at the game and none of the above occurred. The kid was given a direct red card and sent out of the remainder of the game, the team played short. The kid did none of the above 7 things.

Furthermore, the card was revoked and he was allowed to play in the finals game. Why would the red card have been revoked if it was a valid call?


This is why hearsay evidence is not allowed in court.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by upper95 on 26/11/18, 11:00 am

teddykgb wrote:odd...i spoke w/ someone at the game and was told it was a trip from behind - with no defenders between him and the goal - which warranted red.  i guess maybe it depends on who you talk to ...which is often the case...all about perspective.

in terms of why it was revoked...i can imagine lots of reasons...some valid, some not

if this is what happened, the player was sent off for "denial of obvious goal scoring opportunity" by fouling the opponent, which is #5.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by coachdom23 on 26/11/18, 12:07 pm

Soccerkat wrote:I have spoken to several people who were at the game and none of the above occurred. The kid was given a direct red card and sent out of the remainder of the game, the team played short. The kid did none of the above 7 things.

Furthermore, the card was revoked and he was allowed to play in the finals game. Why would the red card have been revoked if it was a valid call?


What exactly did your witnesses say happened? (Besides "He didn't do anything. He was standing there minding his own business, and the referee gave him a red card out of nowhere for no reason.")

Do you understand that a player can be guilty of one of the 7 things listed above, especially #6 & #7, and no fight occurred?


Unfortunately, IF true, red cards can be turned into yellow, removed entirely, or not have the additional game sit-out enforced for a variety of reasons. Again, if the player was not required to sit-out the next match, it could be one of several reasons. Sometimes (and I am NOT saying it happened in this case), a weak tournament official will get an earful from the team coach or club director who bullies the tournament official with threats like "I will pull all of my teams out of this tournament", "I/we will never play in your tournament(s) and/or league(s) ever again", "You will never get to use our fields again". Again, I am NOT saying it happened in this case, but I have seen tournaments and leagues not want to upset their customers by following protocol.

Sometimes a referee will have a change of heart on their own or when a referee supervisor witnesses the incident and convinces the referee or tournament director to change it.
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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Ehlodog on 26/11/18, 12:26 pm

Hey It was my son who got the straight red card - hes never even gotten a yellow before that. It was a simple shoulder to shoulder the ref thought was a egregious foul - differences of opinion on that. Our manager protested after the semi final match on the basis it was first offense, with no prior warnings and none of the first 6 red card reasons applied. The tournament agreed and the red card was rescinded to a double yellow after the match allowing my BB to play in the final. All in all the system worked but it did stink to play the last 20 minutes with 8 kids for what i thought was yellow at worst. - but then again I'm biased.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by upper95 on 26/11/18, 02:35 pm

interesting.  if that is the case the tournament violated its own rules:

"All referee game decisions are final."
"The only protests allowed are for an ineligible player."

considering the stated reasons for the protest to the tournament:

"first offense" has no relevance.

"no prior warnings" has no relevance.

"none of first 6 red card reasons applied" isn't necessarily accurate. the foul can fall under "Serious foul play", which is a foul using excessive f o r c e  that risks serious injury of the opponent.

a fair shoulder-to-shoulder charge involves being side-by-side and using the shoulder to push someone off the ball and  the ball is within playing distance.

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by coachdom23 on 26/11/18, 10:11 pm

Ehlodog wrote:Hey It was my son who got the straight red card - hes never even gotten a yellow before that. It was a simple shoulder to shoulder the ref thought was a egregious foul - differences of opinion on that. Our manager protested after the semi final match on the basis it was first offense, with no prior warnings and none of the first 6 red card reasons applied. The tournament agreed and the red card was rescinded to a double yellow after the match allowing my BB to play in the final. All in all the system worked but it did stink to play the last 20 minutes with 8 kids for what i thought was yellow at worst. - but then again I'm biased.

Thank you for the explanation.
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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Golaso09 on 27/11/18, 11:37 am

Texans had a top 09 team in the copa Rayados Internacional tournament and they took second place looks like Texans May have a top team after all, this team also won the Texans tournament the week before not bad

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Re: League Challenge Cup discussion

Post by Coterminous on 27/11/18, 12:36 pm

From the picture i saw on FB they had the same Ftw Tigres/Solar South/FCD Red best player with them... coincidence? Maybe the player hasn't committed anywhere and just trying out? Plus I know several 09 kids playing for other DT teams that would be on the top DT team if they made one. I just don't think Hasan cares at this age to have 1 top team, better to do that at DA and make himself look great. lol!

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