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Post by Socc-It-To-Me on 28/08/19, 04:29 pm

So what's going on with the YSR Rankings? It's like the second half of the summer never happened...lake highlands qualifying, king tut, surf cup (which Angelone went out to CA and won)...

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Post by Eddyinmyyeti on 28/08/19, 09:18 pm

Not sure. None of the ntx teams have games recorded after Super Copa. Surf Cup isn’t showing for all teams, including CA teams. Weird.

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Post by Longview on 28/08/19, 10:41 pm

Traded messages about the same broad issue at boys U17 with the guy who runs YSR a few days ago - he is aware and working on it.

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Post by Eddyinmyyeti on 28/08/19, 11:08 pm

Same

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Post by 7WhiskeyPapa on 29/08/19, 12:59 pm

I think this same thing happened last year for a couple of weeks around this same time. Not sure what it is, but as I recall, it eventually went back to normal after missing several months of results for a couple of weeks.

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Post by Butfirstsoccer09 on 30/08/19, 07:32 am

The games have been added in now. The rankings still seem off for some teams though.

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Post by Guest on 30/08/19, 07:33 am

YSR has now with been updated with August games. Can't say I am pleased with the outcome seeing Angelone did not make any jump after it's fantastic showing at Surf Cup.

Voutier is #3 right behind Lehigh Valley who destroyed it's competition last weekend.

You can follow where I am more active on the SoCal Forums (becuase they are over rated!!!) here.

http://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/2019-2020-season-2009-girls-predictions.17785/

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Post by Butfirstsoccer09 on 30/08/19, 07:49 am

Voutier is pretty much exclusively playing boys now. I think they will continue to "drop" in the rankings even though they are clearly one of the top teams in the nation. Or will the boy games count for them?

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Post by bigballer07 on 30/08/19, 08:23 am

https://youthsoccerrankings.us/rankings/National/11/Girls/

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Post by ProphAC on 30/08/19, 03:31 pm

I am growing tired of this ranking system. I used to think it was unbiased but it’s clear bias to Region 4 teams is becoming dumbfounding and unexplainable. I used to think it was because Cali teams don’t record league play scores prior to Select so it was just tournament play and when they play up against competition... this would prop up Region 4 teams because they play each other, propping each other’s scores up. But after Surf Cup, I would have expected this to start to correct some... it didn’t at all. In fact, Slammers Aguirre has failed to win 3 tournaments in a row and they have 7 games since May that have hurt their score... doesn’t matter, still #1. I’m not calling for a conspiracy or biased manipulation... more so, just pointing out that this ranking is incredibly flawed. I’m convinced FBR is actually a better ranking system and if applied on a national level would be much more accurate. It would be fascinating to see this but because FBR is such a manual process to enter in all the data, it would be stupid to even try.
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Post by ProphAC on 30/08/19, 03:32 pm

Boys games won’t count for Voutier
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Post by bigballer07 on 30/08/19, 03:54 pm

I agree ProphAC...YSR is VERY biased....Sorry, but after Supercopa the last 2 years, Surf Cup this year all won by North Texas teams, they still have Socal teams still on top, it is a big time joke......North Texas easily has 3-4 teams that should be in top 10 in rankings...Most games matched up with North Texas vs Socal the last 2 years were won by NTX teams.

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Post by ProphAC on 30/08/19, 04:16 pm

Exactly bigballer07, no matter how much NTX shows our quality, it doesn’t seem to matter.
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Post by cenTex on 30/08/19, 04:29 pm

bigballer07 wrote:I agree ProphAC...YSR is VERY biased....Sorry, but after Supercopa the last 2 years, Surf Cup this year all won by North Texas teams, they still have Socal teams still on top, it is a big time joke......North Texas easily has 3-4 teams that should be in top 10 in rankings...Most games matched up with North Texas vs Socal the last 2 years were won by NTX teams.  

It isn't "biased" at all.  At least not how you might think it is.  The computer takes all the scores, throws them together and spits out results.  There isn't any manipulation of the data to help Region 4.  What helps that region is that it's so deep with so many good teams.  A 6-0 win there against the #150 team in the region is much more "respected" by the computer than a 6-0 win anywhere else because the quality of teams runs quite deep.

That, and the computer doesn't give any bonus points to a big tournament win.  A Supercopa or Surf Cup Final victory counts the same as any other game per YSR, even though that isn't quite true in real life.  So while that probably is wrong, there isn't a good way to account for it.  Thus, the rankings will always be flawed.  It spits out whatever is put in.  However flawed it might be, it's still a really good determination of who is good and who isn't and who generally should be grouped together.   But we all should put less emphasis on who the computer says is 12th or 5th and simply understand the system is telling you both teams are very good.

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Post by ProphAC on 30/08/19, 05:21 pm

cenTex,
I get what you are saying, but when you say the quality of the teams runs deeper in SoCal, it doesn’t ring true if our teams are competing well against their teams... at some point the system should recognize that maybe NTX runs deep too.

The way the system works, it gives more weight to the Region 4 teams because the Region 4 teams are beating other Region 4 teams. But when Region 3 teams beat Region 4 teams, that should give credibility to Region 3 teams and start to prop up Region 3 teams more. Not the case with YSR... I’ve seen Region 3 teams like South, Angelone, Bones, Samba and Colvin (even Voutier) struggle to sustain their ranking with strong or decent results while Region 4 teams FLY up the rankings without doing anything of significance. I’m not exaggerating... if a Region 4 team has a solid weekend, they might jump up 10-20 spots while a Region 3 team has a great weekend and will move up 2 or 3 spots if they are lucky. I was a YSR apologist but this recent movement has been an indictment on it’s accuracy.

Again, I’m not saying it’s being intentionally manipulated, I’m saying it’s exposing itself to be incredibly flawed.
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Post by cenTex on 30/08/19, 05:42 pm

ProphAC wrote:cenTex,
I get what you are saying, but when you say the quality of the teams runs deeper in SoCal, it doesn’t ring true if our teams are competing well against their teams... at some point the system should recognize that maybe NTX runs deep too.  

The way the system works, it gives more weight to the Region 4 teams because the Region 4 teams are beating other Region 4 teams.  But when Region 3 teams beat Region 4 teams, that should give credibility to Region 3 teams and start to prop up Region 3 teams more.  Not the case with YSR... I’ve seen Region 3 teams like South, Angelone, Bones, Samba and Colvin (even Voutier) struggle to sustain their ranking with strong or decent results while Region 4 teams FLY up the rankings without doing anything of significance.  I’m not exaggerating... if a Region 4 team has a solid weekend, they might jump up 10-20 spots while a Region 3 team has a great weekend and will move up 2 or 3 spots if they are lucky.  I was a YSR apologist but this recent movement has been an indictment on it’s accuracy.  

Again, I’m not saying it’s being intentionally manipulated, I’m saying it’s exposing itself to be incredibly flawed.

But the point is that NTX doesn't run deep when compared to SoCal.  There are 22 million people living in the seven SoCal counties.  There are 8 million in the Metroplex.

North Texas does great at the top end (less spread out with less traffic allows players to congregate onto top teams more often), but NTX is nowhere near as deep as SoCal.  The top 3 teams in NTX can absolutely hold their own with SoCal's top 3 teams.  In fact the top 3 in NTX might typically be better than the top 3 in SoCal.  However the 20th best team in NTX would get absolutely smoked by SoCal's 20th best team.  The 10th best team in NTX probably gets smoked by SoCal's 20th best team.  

I think that's an important thing to note in the rankings.  The depth means that almost any league or tournament win is a high quality win for a top SoCal team.  The top teams are playing a top bracket Surf Cup or SuperCopa level schedule in league play.   That isn't always the case in NTX where even Lake Highlands D1 or the random weekend tournament A Bracket has some very mediocre teams when compared to SoCal.

Some may see that as Region 4 bias, but the truth is the computer is probably doing the right thing.  NTX runs pretty deep compared to everywhere else in the country, and the same reasons above are why the rankings are dominated by NTX when compared to anywhere else in the country except SoCal.  One could make the same case for how the 20th best NTX team probably whips the 20th best team in any other state except SoCal.  The YSR rankings accurately reflect this reality with a "NTX bias," too.

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Post by ProphAC on 30/08/19, 06:02 pm

SoCal is definitely deeper but not that much deeper. For example, Slammers TD that Angelone beat easily 3-0 (not sure if TD had a shot on goal the entire game) is the #11 team in SoCal but 29th nationally whereas Spirit Khoury is #11 in NTX but #66 nationally. I watched that Slammers TD team play Angelone and Spirit is better than that Slammers team in my opinion yet YSR says Slammers TD and Angelone are practically equals. Maybe TD had a bad game or Angelone played amazing... who knows but I know what I saw in that one game.

There are 35 SoCal teams in the national top 100 but only 16 NTX teams in the top 100 and normally mid level NTX teams for other age groups would get killed by mid level SoCal teams but from what I saw at Surf Cup, that is not a safe conclusion for the ‘09 age group. That is what is great about soccer... the results speak for themselves.

Just my opinion, cenTex... I enjoyed our debate and I respect your POV. Happy Labor Day weekend, everyone!
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Post by BodhiDalton on 30/08/19, 06:23 pm

I agree Proph. While socal being deeper may be true, the example given centex doesn't come close to ringing true. Angelone is a great team and by your own words may be better than what SoCal has to offer. Angelone doesn't "smoke" the 10th best team in NTx so how would the 20th ranked SoCal team "smoke" them? Bottom line, NTX should have better representation at least 20 to 25 deep. I could see a drop off from there due to the metro population numbers but our 8 million is still putting out a good amount of damn good teams.
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Post by cenTex on 30/08/19, 06:28 pm

ProphAC wrote:SoCal is definitely deeper but not that much deeper.  For example, Slammers TD that Angelone beat easily 3-0 (not sure if TD had a shot on goal the entire game) is the #11 team in SoCal but 29th nationally whereas Spirit Khoury is #11 in NTX but #66 nationally.  I watched that Slammers TD team play Angelone and Spirit is better than that Slammers team in my opinion yet YSR says Slammers TD and Angelone are practically equals.  Maybe TD had a bad game or Angelone played amazing... who knows but I know what I saw in that one game.  

There are 35 SoCal teams in the national top 100 but only 16 NTX teams in the top 100 and normally mid level NTX teams for other age groups would get killed by mid level SoCal teams but from what I saw at Surf Cup, that is not a safe conclusion for the ‘09 age group.  That is what is great about soccer... the results speak for themselves.

Just my opinion, cenTex... I enjoyed our debate and I respect your POV.  Happy Labor Day weekend, everyone!  

Fair enough, but that Slammers team you speak of that Angelone beat by 3 has since also lost by the same 3 goals to two other Slammers teams (#9 and #42). That speaks to the depth of SoCal, and/or perhaps likely simply means they lost some players this summer and their high ranking is still awaiting inevitable adjustment.

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Post by ProphAC on 30/08/19, 07:59 pm

Oh man, that Slammers MF #9 team you referenced, cenTex, that beat Slammers TD #29 by the same margin Angelone did was ranked in the 20’s a few weeks ago... they are yet another SoCal team that has a “good” weekend and skyrockets up 15 spots while NTX teams struggle to just maintain status quo. Yet Slammers MF ranked #9 lost to Slammers Cruz #4 2-4 and Angelone #20 just beat Cruz. Doesn’t matter... Slammers MF beat 3 mediocre SoCal teams and stayed within 2 goals of Cruz so they must be top 10 in the nation. Sheesh. You made a good point, cenTex, I just got annoyed all over again when I saw how high that Slammers MF team has climbed after beating nobody.
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Post by Truthiness on 30/08/19, 08:41 pm

ProphAC wrote:Oh man, that Slammers MF #9 team you referenced, cenTex, that beat Slammers TD #29 by the same margin Angelone did was ranked in the 20’s a few weeks ago... they are yet another SoCal team that has a “good” weekend and skyrockets up 15 spots while NTX teams struggle to just maintain status quo.  Yet Slammers MF ranked #9 lost to Slammers Cruz #4 2-4 and Angelone #20 just beat Cruz.  Doesn’t matter... Slammers MF beat 3 mediocre SoCal teams and stayed within 2 goals of Cruz so they must be top 10 in the nation.  Sheesh.  You made a good point, cenTex, I just got annoyed all over again when I saw how high that Slammers MF team has climbed after beating nobody.

Slammers  MF have played 8 games in the past two weeks (almost 25% of their totalrecorded games) and absolutely destroyed teams by 6+ goals per game.  Of course they zoomed up. That's how math works. If 09 Angelone does the same thing, there are 50 other games in the average so it won't have the same impact. If 09 FCD Red does the same thing (with only 8 total recorded games) they would zoom up as well. Conversely, if 09 Angelone has 8 terrible games in a row, the impact won't be that much. If FCD did (or Slammers MF), the drop would be massive.

Math.
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Post by ProphAC on 30/08/19, 09:36 pm

Thanks for the teenage girl attitude. Now that I know “math” Is the reason YSR is so accurate, I guess the debate is over.

Good luck, everyone, this weekend.
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Post by Truthiness on 30/08/19, 09:50 pm

ProphAC wrote:Thanks for the teenage girl attitude.  Now that I know “math” Is the reason YSR is so accurate, I guess the debate is over.  

Good luck, everyone, this weekend.

Didn't mean for it to come off as snippy. Apologies. I simply think those who think the computer is biased quite simply don't fully understand how such things operate. Perhaps I misunderstood.
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Post by ProphAC on 31/08/19, 07:10 am

No worries. You are probably right, sample size was probably the reason for MF’s meteoric rise. I was just annoyed because I’ve seen it happen with many Region 4 teams whereas Region 3 teams climb slowly. It’s all good. I think we have beat this dead horse enough anyways. Time to move on.
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