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Post by SocDad on 29/08/14, 03:13 pm

soccersounder wrote:Brings up a thought... The Club Volleyball model is different and if translated over to NTX Club Soccer, it might look something like this:

Club Fee $1000 - Team to Play PPL and practice once per week and play 1 tournament with a D License or better coach

Club Fee $1600 - Team to play PPL and practice twice per week and play 2 or 3 Tournaments with a D License coach or better

Club Fee $2200 - Team to Try to qualify Lake Highlands, practice twice a week play 3 or 4 Tournaments (one out of town) and a C License Coach or better

Club Fee $3000 - Team will play Lake Highlands, Practice 3 times a week, play 4 to 5 tournaments (2 out of town) and a B License Coach or better

How many would prefer that type of set up?

Now that's a tiered program everyone can get behind...."Pay and Play" to your skill level.

I wonder how much the "Purple Cobra's" charge for their program?

Wish they had more teams:  https://www.txsoccer.net/t21297-purple-cobras-in-need-of-a-gk-cheap-and-no-practices?highlight=purple

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Post by SoccerRebel98 on 29/08/14, 03:37 pm

SocDad wrote:
soccersounder wrote:Brings up a thought... The Club Volleyball model is different and if translated over to NTX Club Soccer, it might look something like this:

Club Fee $1000 - Team to Play PPL and practice once per week and play 1 tournament with a D License or better coach

Club Fee $1600 - Team to play PPL and practice twice per week and play 2 or 3 Tournaments with a D License coach or better

Club Fee $2200 - Team to Try to qualify Lake Highlands, practice twice a week play 3 or 4 Tournaments (one out of town) and a C License Coach or better

Club Fee $3000 - Team will play Lake Highlands, Practice 3 times a week, play 4 to 5 tournaments (2 out of town) and a B License Coach or better

How many would prefer that type of set up?

Now that's a tiered program everyone can get behind...."Pay and Play" to your skill level.

I wonder how much the "Purple Cobra's" charge for their program?

Wish they had more teams:  https://www.txsoccer.net/t21297-purple-cobras-in-need-of-a-gk-cheap-and-no-practices?highlight=purple

SocDad, surely you jest. Respected soccer clubs across the nation use a tiered fee structure based on the competition level of the league and the coach's credentials. I'm not asking for cheap recreational soccer. I'm asking for reasonably priced competitive soccer. Paying $3000 for PPL Div II is not reasonable. I think the powers that be at FCD should be embarrassed at having 6 teams in PPL paying the same fees that 1 team in LH does. Then again, it's one heck of a business structure isn't it?
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Post by Coach&Ref on 29/08/14, 03:55 pm

soccersounder wrote:
Club Fee $2200 - Team to Try to qualify Lake Highlands, practice twice a week play 3 or 4 Tournaments (one out of town) and a C License Coach or better

Club Fee $3000 - Team will play Lake Highlands, Practice 3 times a week, play 4 to 5 tournaments (2 out of town) and a B License Coach or better

No disrespect sounder, but how many coaches for the LH teams have these credentials? What I normally see is a massive list of PLAYING accomplishments and not the COACHING credentials. Does not having the licenses make them bad coaches? Not necessarily. Conversely, does having the licenses and mediocre playing experience make them bad coaches? Again, not necessarily.

Here is one of the greatest coaches (managers)

Greatest Managers, No. 6: Arrigo Sacchi

The pressing game continues to be a winning approach among the sport's best teams. It was Sacchi who fashioned it into the strategy that brought success to his AC Milan, but also those that followed, like Pep Guardiola's Barcelona and Jupp Heynckes' Bayern Munich.

Professorial but abrasive, Sacchi was an alchemist who won the club game's greatest honours and was within a penalty kick of international football's greatest prize. His AC Milan team were the last to win two successive Europe Cups in 1989 and 1990. His Italy team at USA '94 lost the World Cup final when Roberto Baggio unthinkably missed a penalty in a shoot-out.

He was also a trendsetter for many of the current game's leading coaches. Like Jose Mourinho and Andre Villas-Boas, he never played the game professionally. "A jockey doesn't have to have been born a horse," he believed.

Sacchi had been a shoe salesman when becoming manager of local club Baracca Lugo because, at 26, he was not good enough to play for them. After various spells as a youth team coach, the big break came at Parma, then in Serie C1.

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Post by soccerjack on 29/08/14, 04:56 pm

I agree it should be based on the coaches performance not license level..but that's beside the point. The reality is there are a lot of "ok" coaches out there making a money grab that won't last, the clubs don't care because its revenue, but its very short sighted.
Fcd is a good example central will get into Lh next year, good coach with a strong history, worth the $3k. That team in d-2 will probably never get in a higher league and will most likely break up in the next year or 2. If they were smart they would charge $1200 a year and maybe those kids would play together 4 or 5 years and enjoy it. The coaches are part of the problem too because too many of the low level ones talk about getting into Lh in a few years. Guess what probably not gonna happen for 90% of those teams. That's the crime, lots of kids would probably play longer and enjoy the game. Who cares if your not in Lh if you're having fun, but its not worth $3k.
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Post by ElClassico on 29/08/14, 05:02 pm

A bit off topic but why would a coach holding a B license be coaching 10 year olds? The B license pretty much states the coach should be working with kids 16 years old or more. Why spend all that time and money if you're happy teaching younger kids.
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Post by SocDad on 29/08/14, 05:28 pm

SoccerRebel98 wrote:
SocDad wrote:
soccersounder wrote:Brings up a thought... The Club Volleyball model is different and if translated over to NTX Club Soccer, it might look something like this:

Club Fee $1000 - Team to Play PPL and practice once per week and play 1 tournament with a D License or better coach

Club Fee $1600 - Team to play PPL and practice twice per week and play 2 or 3 Tournaments with a D License coach or better

Club Fee $2200 - Team to Try to qualify Lake Highlands, practice twice a week play 3 or 4 Tournaments (one out of town) and a C License Coach or better

Club Fee $3000 - Team will play Lake Highlands, Practice 3 times a week, play 4 to 5 tournaments (2 out of town) and a B License Coach or better

How many would prefer that type of set up?

Now that's a tiered program everyone can get behind...."Pay and Play" to your skill level.

I wonder how much the "Purple Cobra's" charge for their program?

Wish they had more teams:  https://www.txsoccer.net/t21297-purple-cobras-in-need-of-a-gk-cheap-and-no-practices?highlight=purple

SocDad, surely you jest. Respected soccer clubs across the nation use a tiered fee structure based on the competition level of the league and the coach's credentials. I'm not asking for cheap recreational soccer. I'm asking for reasonably priced competitive soccer. Paying $3000 for PPL Div II is not reasonable. I think the powers that be at FCD should be embarrassed at having 6 teams in PPL paying the same fees that 1 team in LH does. Then again, it's one heck of a business structure isn't it?

 I was serious about the 1st part and the 'Pay and Play" for the level at which the team is at.  I only mentioned the "Purple Cobras" post because that team realized where their at and only charges for that....plus I think its funny Smile

 I do not recommend that pay should be based off of which license the coach holds...but as stated earlier...that is not the point.
 It should be based off of which league the team is participating in.  At a minimum, there would be at least 1 weekly practice and 2 tournaments a year.

So my variation would look something like this (BL=Base Level)(U=Uniforms):
BL+U:  $1,250 (everyone pays)
BL+U+PPL D3:  $1,500
BL+U+PPL D2:  $1,750
BL+U+PPL D1:  $2,000
BL+U+LHGCL D3:  $2,250
BL+U+LHGCL D2:  $2,500
BL+U+LHGCL D1:  $3,000
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Post by SoccerRebel98 on 29/08/14, 05:32 pm

ElClassico wrote:A bit off topic but why would a coach holding a B license be coaching 10 year olds? The B license pretty much states the coach should be working with kids 16 years old or more. Why spend all that time and money if you're happy teaching younger kids.

Really any number of reasons I imagine. I'm licensed to teach K-12, but you won't catch me in a high school Very Happy
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Post by Guest on 29/08/14, 05:50 pm

Some interesting numbers to throw at the discussion...

Here's a summary of the 8 NTX clubs that currently have at least 10 teams playing in LHGCL/ECNL for this soccer year (I think this is the full list, and if I have accidentally left a club off of this list that meets that criteria, please let me know and I will add them).  It breaks down by age group how many teams each club has in LHGCL/ECNL and PPL/APL.

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Last edited by bwgophers on 29/08/14, 05:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by ElClassico on 29/08/14, 05:52 pm

SoccerRebel98 wrote:
ElClassico wrote:A bit off topic but why would a coach holding a B license be coaching 10 year olds? The B license pretty much states the coach should be working with kids 16 years old or more. Why spend all that time and money if you're happy teaching younger kids.

Really any number of reasons I imagine. I'm licensed to teach K-12, but you won't catch me in a high school Very Happy

A little different. If you had to get a specific certificate to teach 10-12 and it cost you $$$ and required many months of your time then you probably intended to teach those years...Kind of like getting an Admin certificate without the intention of ever being a Principal.
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Post by ElClassico on 29/08/14, 06:08 pm

bwgophers wrote:Some interesting numbers to throw at the discussion...

Here's a summary of the 8 NTX clubs that currently have at least 10 teams playing in LHGCL/ECNL for this soccer year (I think this is the full list, and if I have accidentally left a club off of this list that meets that criteria, please let me know and I will add them).  It breaks down by age group how many teams each club has in LHGCL/ECNL and PPL/APL.

PPL Schedule Posted - Page 2 2014-111

Half your teams playing in PPL or APL screams of "money for nothing" from the clubs. I'd have to question the overall direction and commitment of the club and their goals. Are they just throwing coaches out there to keep teams together and collect the dollars?

What would be interesting is to add a column for each club listing players they've placed in college programs or to the national team. That would at least tell us if they're developing players even though they can't field a high number of "top" teams.
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Post by soccerjack on 29/08/14, 06:32 pm

bwgophers wrote:Some interesting numbers to throw at the discussion...

Here's a summary of the 8 NTX clubs that currently have at least 10 teams playing in LHGCL/ECNL for this soccer year (I think this is the full list, and if I have accidentally left a club off of this list that meets that criteria, please let me know and I will add them).  It breaks down by age group how many teams each club has in LHGCL/ECNL and PPL/APL.

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Well done bw. That is interesting. I guess ppl should change its name to the fcd challenge league.
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Post by Guest on 29/08/14, 06:35 pm

ElClassico wrote:
bwgophers wrote:Some interesting numbers to throw at the discussion...

Here's a summary of the 8 NTX clubs that currently have at least 10 teams playing in LHGCL/ECNL for this soccer year (I think this is the full list, and if I have accidentally left a club off of this list that meets that criteria, please let me know and I will add them).  It breaks down by age group how many teams each club has in LHGCL/ECNL and PPL/APL.

PPL Schedule Posted - Page 2 2014-111

Half your teams playing in PPL or APL screams of "money for nothing" from the clubs. I'd have to question the overall direction and commitment of the club and their goals. Are they just throwing coaches out there to keep teams together and collect the dollars?

What would be interesting is to add a column for each club listing players they've placed in college programs or to the national team. That would at least tell us if they're developing players even though they can't field a high number of "top" teams.

I think the other set of stats that would be extremely interesting would be a breakdown of what % of players from a clubs' U14 rosters end up playing JV and Varsity for their High Schools during their U15 (Freshmen) year. Break it down further by 6A/5A/4A/TAPPS, etc., and by ECNL, LHGCL D1, D2, D3, PPL/APL.

I believe that the minimum goal of the vast majority of girls playing select soccer from U11-U14 in NTX is to play for their High School, and their parents shell out the $$ to the clubs because they feel that is what is necessary to keep that dream alive for their little Suzies. It'd be interesting to see if any particular clubs stood out from the distributions (either better or worse) with respect to preparing the girls for HS soccer.


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Post by soccerjack on 29/08/14, 08:23 pm

ElClassico wrote:A bit off topic but why would a coach holding a B license be coaching 10 year olds? The B license pretty much states the coach should be working with kids 16 years old or more. Why spend all that time and money if you're happy teaching younger kids.

The easy answer is he may not be a good coach. A certificate does not make you good at something.
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Post by soccerchicken on 29/08/14, 08:35 pm

soccerjack wrote:
bwgophers wrote:Some interesting numbers to throw at the discussion...

Here's a summary of the 8 NTX clubs that currently have at least 10 teams playing in LHGCL/ECNL for this soccer year (I think this is the full list, and if I have accidentally left a club off of this list that meets that criteria, please let me know and I will add them).  It breaks down by age group how many teams each club has in LHGCL/ECNL and PPL/APL.

PPL Schedule Posted - Page 2 2014-112


Well done bw. That is interesting. I guess ppl should change its name to the fcd challenge league.


Wow!  Very eye opening!

Some clubs have their percentage distorted by a disproportionately high percentage of high school aged teams.  If you remove U16-U19, when most girls have entered high school, most clubs retain roughly the same percentage.  Others drop well below 50%, and even below 40%.
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Post by soccerjack on 29/08/14, 09:20 pm

soccer chuck wrote:
soccerjack wrote:
bwgophers wrote:Some interesting numbers to throw at the discussion...

Here's a summary of the 8 NTX clubs that currently have at least 10 teams playing in LHGCL/ECNL for this soccer year (I think this is the full list, and if I have accidentally left a club off of this list that meets that criteria, please let me know and I will add them).  It breaks down by age group how many teams each club has in LHGCL/ECNL and PPL/APL.

PPL Schedule Posted - Page 2 2014-112


Well done bw. That is interesting. I guess ppl should change its name to the fcd challenge league.


Wow!  Very eye opening!

Some clubs have their percentage distorted by a disproportionately high percentage of high school aged teams.  If you remove U16-U19, when most girls have entered high school, most clubs retain roughly the same percentage.  Others drop well below 50%, and even below 40%.

I would assume ecnl skews it again, which face it is a monopoly. What's bs is Liverpool should be ecnl because they actually do develop kids. Couple of clubs on here especially ecnl ones that should be called out.
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Post by soccerchicken on 29/08/14, 10:19 pm

Andromeda, Tx. Spirit and Liverpool are not ECNL clubs, but they appear to be doing just fine developing and promoting talent.

Only one major club appears to have a disproportionately large number of older top teams, without the lower teams to support it.  Use the ECNL name, shut out other clubs from joining, raid their talent, and pay for it with the masses of younger players.  Hell of a business model!
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Post by jumpstart on 05/09/14, 01:52 pm

In Fall 2003 there were 12 U11G teams playing in PPL. In Fall 2014 there are 40 U11G teams playing in PPL. I don't think PPL is going away any time soon. The demand is only increasing.

PYSA has now reached the limit of fields available in Plano. Next season PPL may limit the number of teams that participate because they will not have enough fields to have any more teams than they have this year.

In what League will the overflow teams play in?
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Post by Coach&Ref on 05/09/14, 02:55 pm

jumpstart wrote:In Fall 2003 there were 12 U11G teams playing in PPL. In Fall 2014 there are 40 U11G teams playing in PPL. I don't think PPL is going away any time soon. The demand is only increasing.

PYSA has now reached the limit of fields available in Plano. Next season PPL may limit the number of teams that participate because they will not have enough fields to have any more teams than they have this year.

In what League will the overflow teams play in?

Perhaps Arlington?

I'm just guessing.

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Post by Full Kit Wankers Beware on 05/09/14, 03:44 pm

Coach&Ref wrote:
jumpstart wrote:In Fall 2003 there were 12 U11G teams playing in PPL. In Fall 2014 there are 40 U11G teams playing in PPL. I don't think PPL is going away any time soon. The demand is only increasing.

PYSA has now reached the limit of fields available in Plano. Next season PPL may limit the number of teams that participate because they will not have enough fields to have any more teams than they have this year.

In what League will the overflow teams play in?

Perhaps Arlington?

I'm just guessing.

Or are you guesting?  scratch
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Post by Guest on 05/09/14, 04:05 pm

jumpstart wrote:In what League will the overflow teams play in?

At the risk of sounding callous... they should go back to their home association's rec leagues, where, frankly, they probably belong.

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Post by jumpstart on 05/09/14, 04:29 pm

A competitive team, once organized, cannot go back into a rec league. The problem will show up when a competitive team enters the PPL placement tournament, places in the 41st or lower position and PPL only accepts 40 teams.

Be as callous as you want, but would you not have any empathy for 14 or so 10 year old girls who do not have a league to play in? There really wouldn't be any significant difference between the quality of play of the 40th placing team and the 41st placing team. Just let them sit on home on the weekends and watch TV and munch on cheetos?
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Post by Guest on 05/09/14, 04:34 pm

jumpstart wrote:A competitive team, once organized, cannot go back into a rec league. The problem will show up when a competitive team enters the PPL placement tournament, places in the 41st or lower position and PPL only accepts 40 teams.

Be as callous as you want, but would you not have any empathy for 14 or so 10 year old girls who do not have a league to play in? There really wouldn't be any significant difference between the quality of play of the 40th placing team and the 41st placing team. Just let them sit on home on the weekends and watch TV and munch on cheetos?


It's called a rec release. Team doesn't qualify for PPL, everyone goes and gets a rec release and they can form a new rec team. If they can't use the same exact name, then they can use a slightly modified name.

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Post by jumpstart on 05/09/14, 05:47 pm

What about the contracts that have been signed with the club? There won't be an "escape clause" if the team doesn't join a league since the team can play as a "tournament" team. Would you pay $3K to play as a "tournement" team. Your continued suggestion to convert to a rec team is NOT going to happen if you have signed a contract for $3K to play as a competitive team.
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Post by soccerchicken on 05/09/14, 06:31 pm

Or maybe clubs shouldn't be charging $3000 for the 86th+ team in NTX?

Is the talent really so deep in NTX that 1400+ girls should be playing select soccer?

If all 86 teams in LHGCL, PPL, and APL carried 15 players (and some teams feel the "need" to carry 18), this is a $4M+ business just for the 04 girls.  IT'S A MONEY GRAB.

Doesn't matter if your little Suzie can't kick a ball at this age.  If you have the $, the clubs are happy to take it.

But let me tell you, if Suzie is on the 87th NTX team, your $2800 would likely be better spent somewhere else, with $200 towards rec soccer.
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Post by Guest on 05/09/14, 06:40 pm

jumpstart wrote:What about the contracts that have been signed with the club? There won't be an "escape clause" if the team doesn't join a league since the team can play as a "tournament" team. Would you pay $3K to play as a "tournement" team. Your continued suggestion to convert to a rec team is NOT going to happen if you have signed a contract for $3K to play as a competitive team.

You know what?  Caveat emptor to the max, if you paid $3000 to a club without making the effort, or having the intelligence, to figure out that there very well might be 70 or more other soccer teams in your DD's age group that are better than hers, and maybe you should've just stayed in rec with a really good volunteer parent coach.

By the same token, shame on the club that still takes your $3000 if they can't assemble a team with enough talent and/or a coach with enough skill to be better than the 70th or 80th (I'm assuming at least 10 teams in APL are better than a team that couldn't make the top 40 in PPL) best team in the age group.

Let's be a little more realistic here...  the teams in question are generally rec teams with a parent coach that said "let's try select", that are "pay as you go", or teams from a small club that are costing far less than $3000 to play for.  Plus, assuming you were also smart enough to spead your payments out with the club on a plan that spans the soccer year, you could always just walk away from the team, get that rec release for your kid, and let the club decide if they want to deal with the bad forum publicity from trying to take you to small claims court to recoup money from you when they couldn't even get your team into a 40 team PPL.

Empathy for the parents and coach that were too lazy or too stupid to figure out that there are possibly 70-80 teams in NTX better than theirs, and it would've been better if they just stayed in rec?  No No No No

Empathy for the kids affected by this situation?  Sure.  Not only did they possibly get screwed out a season of rec soccer (God forbid, a few months without rec games, how will the ever recover from that and become productive members of society affraid ), but they've also got idiots for parents (which actually could prevent them from becoming productive members of society). Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

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Post by jumpstart on 05/09/14, 08:15 pm

Next year, if the trend for the last 10 years holds, there will be more teams in all age groups, not just U11G, wanting to play in PPL than there will be fields for. PPL is planning to set limits on the number of teams in all age divisions, boys and girls. This will probably affect scores of teams. PPL now accepts all teams that register. This will probably not be the case next year.
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