North Texas Soccer Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Log in

I forgot my password

Be An Athletic Supporter!
Donate and get this nifty tag!

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Pixel
Statistics
We have 15040 registered users
The newest registered user is Zoonwen

Our users have posted a total of 203400 messages in 30815 subjects

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by garageoffice 21/10/14, 09:26 pm

I've had an opportunity to see several of the teams in the top 20 or so in the past few months and I'm curious about one thing that really stands out.  Some of the teams do a very good job of working the ball around the field.  They control the ball very well, making smart passes, receiving the ball well, and creating scoring opportunities in a very strategic manner.  Other teams rely on much less finesse, using defenders with big kicks to largely bypass the middle of the field altogether, creating scoring opportunities on big bounces that their forwards hope get past the opposing defenders.

From what I've seen, the finesse teams sometimes struggle against teams with less apparent skill when they run into an athletic team that flies to the ball quickly.  However, the big boot teams tend to struggle if the opposing defenders handle the long kicks well and quickly get the ball into transition.

I'm curious whether this typically represents a true difference in philosophy or is it a concession to a disparity in ball-handling skills in favor of raw athleticism?  I'd like to hear your anecdotes and/or opinions.

garageoffice
TxSoccer Poster
TxSoccer Poster

Posts : 25
Points : 2837
Join date : 2014-02-14

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by SD69 22/10/14, 08:28 am

10sDad started a pretty lively discussion on this halfway down the page

https://www.txsoccer.net/t22048p150-04-lh-qt-predictions
SD69
SD69
TxSoccer Addict
TxSoccer Addict

Posts : 1365
Points : 4724
Join date : 2012-11-05
Location : On the SW side, in soccer purgatory.

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by FriscoSoccer2004 22/10/14, 09:36 am

to save some searching time, here is 10sDad's post:

10sDad wrote:Wow...so many things to comment on!!! Which one to pick? Ummm..I think I will go with "score goals" topic and move into ECNL.

Yes...LHGCL got exactly what they wanted for D1. Teams that could win. Nowhere does it say that LH is about development. So, if your team has a couple really fast physical forwards, and you can pack the back and boot it up everytime you can take a swing at it, you will do fine - probably make D1!.
I did see a couple teams that are learning possession style soccer, and at U-11 that's a huge undertaking mentally and physically. These teams would get control in the back, transition into and through the midfield with nice passing, ball control, switch/transition the field, etc. But then, they would either make a minor mistake on a pass, or take too long to make a decision, and would get muscled off the ball/lose a 50/50...which was promptly sent 30+ yards back downfield with no direction or purpose to the cheers of parents saying "nice kick!". Maybe a fast, physical forward got onto it, maybe not....but the process would start all over again. It takes a long time to learn possession soccer, and the advantage at this age goes to the boot-it stlye team...for the next couple years anyway.

Now...that leads into the ECNL discussion. The midfielders and the defenders on the "boot it forward" team that is gaining all this early success, making D1, winning lots of games, etc....won't make ECNL (the forward might). The team's results do not help on individual tryouts. The ECNL player has to be able to play smart, and be possession oriented. Spending the last couple years, and the next few years playing long ball clearances ends up with a player not getting developed in game situations, and creates a non-ECNL player because they don't think.

It's not necessarily the coaches fault. They want to teach proper soccer. But...they also have a reputation that is built on winning. Winning trumps development in NTX soccer...if you don't believe that...well...then you are one of the parents on these teams rosters...
Many times you will see coaches try to teach possession in practice, but when the W-L record is on the line...its pack the back and boot it. They have this vision in their heads that they can teach it only in practice, the girls will get it, and then they can all of a sudden start doing it in games. What happens more often, is they recruit players from the possession style teams to be their center-mids and the like. (entice them with a D1 spot), and send their original players packing. So....the possession style team really doesn't advance up to the top echelons...but the players do one by one...
So where are most of your ECNL players of the future? That remains to be seen...but its more determined by development than by win/loss record at this age.
FriscoSoccer2004
FriscoSoccer2004
TxSoccer Sponsor
TxSoccer Sponsor

Posts : 1785
Points : 6283
Join date : 2010-09-07
Location : planning my next grilling masterpiece

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by FriscoSoccer2004 22/10/14, 09:43 am

Another good quote from the FIFA website: http://www.fifa.com/newscentre/features/news/newsid=2458257/

"I loathe all that passing for the sake of it, all that tiki-taka. It's so much rubbish and has no purpose. You have to pass the ball with a clear intention, with the aim of making it into the opposition's goal. You need to dig into your own DNA. I hate tiki-taka. Barça didn't do tiki-taka. In all team sports, the secret is to overload one side of the pitch so that the opponent must tilt its own defence to cope. You overload on one side and draw them in so that they leave the other side weak. And then you attack and score from the other side. That's why you have to pass the ball, but only if you're doing it with a clear intention. It's only to overload the opponent, to draw them in and then to hit them with the sucker-punch. That's what our game needs to be about. Nothing to do with tiki-taka."
Pep Guardiola
FriscoSoccer2004
FriscoSoccer2004
TxSoccer Sponsor
TxSoccer Sponsor

Posts : 1785
Points : 6283
Join date : 2010-09-07
Location : planning my next grilling masterpiece

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by FriscoSoccer2004 22/10/14, 09:49 am

Last one...

Implementing a possession playing style by Georgia Soccer DOC - Jacob Daniel

Couple of interesting slides: Click link above for full PDF:

DIRECT SOCCER DEFINED
•Players almost always pass forward
•Many passes are long and vertical
•Many passes played into areas – kick vs pass
•Many passes are played into space behind opponents’ back line – foot races
•Lots of fights for ‘second balls’
•All goal kicks are punted long
•All throw-ins are thrown long ‘down the line’
•All free kicks in defensive and middle third are kicked long with everyone moving up for the kick

POSSESSION SOCCER DEFINED
•Passes made in all directions, 360 degrees
•Ball switched from side to side multiple times in each possession. Rhythm of possession.
•Probing passes into feet & back again. Angled passes
•Back line, def mid play pivotal role in possession
•Balls played wide to create space on opposite side, followed by switch
•Keeper throws ball to build up from back. Few punts
•Free kicks played to feet to keep possession
•Throw-ins played to possess, often to backs or mids

OBSTACLES
•COACHES NOT BUYING INTO PHILOSOPHY
•RESISTANCE TO CHANGE, EGO
•WORRIES ABOUT SACRIFICING RESULTS
•ACCEPTANCE BUT INABILITY TO EXECUTE
•WASTING TIME ON ONE-OFF SITUATIONS
•MONITORING AND TRAINING COACHES
•STAFF MEETINGS NOT EFFECTIVE WITHOUT FOLLOW UP
•NEED COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY TO ENHANCE MESSAGE
•NEED A CENTRAL TRAINING SITE
•NEED WELL ARTICULATED PARENT EDUCATION
FriscoSoccer2004
FriscoSoccer2004
TxSoccer Sponsor
TxSoccer Sponsor

Posts : 1785
Points : 6283
Join date : 2010-09-07
Location : planning my next grilling masterpiece

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by SD69 22/10/14, 09:51 am

For someone who said they hate tiki-taka, it sure looked like he took BM, who was untouchable the year before in CL, in that direction when he took over.
SD69
SD69
TxSoccer Addict
TxSoccer Addict

Posts : 1365
Points : 4724
Join date : 2012-11-05
Location : On the SW side, in soccer purgatory.

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by FriscoSoccer2004 22/10/14, 10:04 am

Ok one more... this is from the boys forum from 2012, but does a good job of explaining:

http://www.txsoccer.info/t4713-kickball-vs-possession-soccer

soccergrinder wrote:Below are my observations after my kids playing soccer in North Texas for the last 10 years.

You are getting your terminology mixed up.

Kickball is what kids do in rec. Kickball just means kicking the ball without ANY specific destination for the ball. Not normally seen in select soccer.

In select you have two distinct styles of play. You have possession soccer and you have longball, also referred to as direct soccer by college coaches.

Choosing between these two usually involves one or two things. It could be the coach, i.e. Texans Hassan & Hudgell play longball. A telltale sign is when the midfielders pass the ball backwards to the defenders and then the defenders launch the ball to the forwards. Where as coaches like Solar's KS play a possession style of play. The team works the ball through their midfielders and try to set up specific opportunities to specific players by working the ball around. Similar to what a basketball team might do. Not that possession doesn't have it's fair share of threw balls as well.

Another reason has to do with player personnel. For example the typical Texan player will either be really big or really fast. They go for the athletic type. This is great for longball. Muscle the other players or beat them up top with speed. These teams are where North Texas gets it's reputation of "North Texas" ball. Or rough play, bang the crap out of the other team type of soccer. Typical Solar teams go for more skilled players. Players that may not be as big or fast but beat you with their technical skills and their creative play and brains. Not to say that Texans don't have some skilled payers and that Solar doesn't have some athletic players because they both do.

If your focus is to win games when they are young then definitively you want to play longball. Young players inevitably will cough up the ball and make a mistake under constant bombardment of longball. However, as the players get older longball is less effective. If you want to develop the players to have a "soccer brain" then possession soccer is the way to go.

However, this is carried over even in college soccer. For example the "Big Ten" is looked at as direct(longball) style of play where as the "Big East" is known as more possession style of teams (in general). You could even see it in the recent college playoffs that came through town. Akron, a possession style team, came to Dallas to play SMU, a direct play team. Akron pretty much sliced and diced SMU up for the first 2/3 of the game and had a 3-0 lead with their possession ball. In the last third of the game SMU's direct style finally paid off and they scored two goals before finally losing 3-2.

Another interesting note is the USSF Development Academy has even started ranking teams by style of play. They rank possession style very high (Solar, FC Dallas got high rankings) and they rank longball very low (Texans garnered a 2 on a 5 scale).

These comments are not meant to be pro or anti any specific club, they are just my observations which I am sure are not biased in any way. affraid  
FriscoSoccer2004
FriscoSoccer2004
TxSoccer Sponsor
TxSoccer Sponsor

Posts : 1785
Points : 6283
Join date : 2010-09-07
Location : planning my next grilling masterpiece

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Guest 22/10/14, 10:08 am

"What happens more often, is they recruit players from the possession style teams to be their center-mids and the like. (entice them with a D1 spot), and send their original players packing."

I can see a chicken/egg situation here. Do 'boot it up' teams play that way because of weak mids, or does their 'boot it up' style create weak mids?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Guest 22/10/14, 10:18 am

.


Last edited by Cobra_Kai on 22/10/14, 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by garageoffice 22/10/14, 10:46 am

Thanks for the link SD69.  That was an interesting read.

garageoffice
TxSoccer Poster
TxSoccer Poster

Posts : 25
Points : 2837
Join date : 2014-02-14

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Guest 22/10/14, 11:01 am

Pep loathed that it was called Tiki-taka.  The name came from the media, describing what the media thought was barca simply pinging the ball around their opponents with ease.. derived from the way it sounded on the pitch as they passed it around.

His point is that they do not aimlesly pass it around... he summarized the tactic perfectly in the quote.  the point is to create an overload.  Its like a game of chess/checkers... move the pieces around the pitch and then stike.

For those looking for the big kick to the fast kid it will be lost on them.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by rockindaddy 22/10/14, 11:19 am

Good teams and players can and will play both styles.
Direct soccer that results easy goals should not be looked at as bad soccer any more than possession soccer that never results in goals should be conceived as good soccer.
rockindaddy
rockindaddy
TxSoccer Poster
TxSoccer Poster

Posts : 90
Points : 4569
Join date : 2009-08-04

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Guest 22/10/14, 11:22 am

The problem is most do not understand the difference between the two. That takes patience and an investment in understanding the game... most wont bother with it.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by SD69 22/10/14, 11:28 am

There should be a balance of possession vs direct, somewhat determined by players. When Pep took over (speaking from what I've seen in CL play the last few years), he shifted from the more direct style, which destroyed Barca the year before with their athleticism, to more possession. With mostly the same key players, they lost to RM, who IMO looked very much like the BM of the year before. Long ball to 50/50s are bad (which is why it is so frustrating watching EPL), but a little more direct style if it suits the athleticism of the team can be a good thing.
SD69
SD69
TxSoccer Addict
TxSoccer Addict

Posts : 1365
Points : 4724
Join date : 2012-11-05
Location : On the SW side, in soccer purgatory.

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Hooligan 22/10/14, 11:42 am

so to summarize... Very Happy
---A nice through ball with pace to a forward that nicely times their run, is direct soccer.
---Working the ball from the defense, through the midfield, sometimes passing backward to achieve switches, ultimately resulting in a pass to a forward or attacking mid in the box is possession soccer.
---Kicking the ball upfield as high and as hard as you can, and hoping your big, fast forward can chase it down before the defender can, or arrive before the defender has controlled it to muscle the ball away is bootball.
Did I get this right?
Hooligan
Hooligan
TxSoccer Poster
TxSoccer Poster

Posts : 25
Points : 2630
Join date : 2014-09-10

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Guest 22/10/14, 11:46 am

Now for you to print up some t-shirts and get em sold.

The front of the shirt would show the parents preference:

"Direct" , "Tiki-Taka", "My DDs big toe is always bloody after games"

The back:

TXSoccer.net

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by SD69 22/10/14, 11:51 am

Bloody Big Toes. I like it cheers
SD69
SD69
TxSoccer Addict
TxSoccer Addict

Posts : 1365
Points : 4724
Join date : 2012-11-05
Location : On the SW side, in soccer purgatory.

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Hooligan 22/10/14, 11:54 am

Borussia wrote:Now for you to print up some t-shirts and get em sold.

The front of the shirt would show the parents preference:

"Direct" , "Tiki-Taka", "My DDs big toe is always bloody after games"

The back:

TXSoccer.net

I suggest "Direct", "Possession" and "Poke and Pray" Twisted Evil
Hooligan
Hooligan
TxSoccer Poster
TxSoccer Poster

Posts : 25
Points : 2630
Join date : 2014-09-10

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Lefty 22/10/14, 12:08 pm

A major influencing factor in the proliferation of long ball relative to possession are the substitution rules.  With more than 3 subs allowed, the viability of long ball increases.  

If you allowed only 3 subs then soccer IQ, skill, possession and control would be at a premium when everyone on the field is playing the majority of the game and has to conserve energy and recover from over exertion within the context of the game.

Lefty
TxSoccer Addict
TxSoccer Addict

Posts : 1113
Points : 5686
Join date : 2009-05-18

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Lefty 22/10/14, 12:11 pm

Hooligan wrote:so to summarize... Very Happy
---A nice through ball with pace to a forward that nicely times their run, is direct soccer.
---Working the ball from the defense, through the midfield, sometimes passing backward to achieve switches, ultimately resulting in a pass to a forward or attacking mid in the box is possession soccer.
---Kicking the ball upfield as high and as hard as you can, and hoping your big, fast forward can chase it down before the defender can, or arrive before the defender has controlled it to muscle the ball away is bootball NTX girls soccer.
Did I get this right?

With 1 minor adjustment

Lefty
TxSoccer Addict
TxSoccer Addict

Posts : 1113
Points : 5686
Join date : 2009-05-18

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by haterinho 22/10/14, 12:25 pm

rockindaddy wrote:Good teams and players can and will play both styles.
Direct soccer that results easy goals should not be looked at as bad soccer any more than possession soccer that never results in goals should be conceived as good soccer.

Agree with this 100pct. There are really good possession teams, and really good direct teams, but the most dangerous teams have the personnel and skill to do both and can switch on demand as needed.

I'm with pep, I grew to hate tiki-taka too, and towards the end of their reign when xavi got old and they had no ctr fwd, they played tiki taka and it was crap to watch. I for one am overjoyed the world has moved on from thinking that style is what everyone should be playing.

Love the beautiful game, but tiki taka is not it IMO.

__________________________________________________
"We don't fix blame; we fix problems." Dick LeBeau

haterinho
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 124
Points : 2776
Join date : 2014-07-31

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by garageoffice 22/10/14, 12:46 pm

haterinho wrote:Agree with this 100pct. There are really good possession teams, and really good direct teams, but the most dangerous teams have the personnel and skill to do both and can switch on demand as needed.

This is exactly what I would expect.  A truly good team should develop the skill and soccer IQ to possess the ball consistently combined with the athleticism to compete 50/50 and take advantage of direct opportunities.  Also, I would expect there are plenty of times that one style or the other would be more effective against a given team.

garageoffice
TxSoccer Poster
TxSoccer Poster

Posts : 25
Points : 2837
Join date : 2014-02-14

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Guest 22/10/14, 12:48 pm

haterinho wrote:
rockindaddy wrote:Good teams and players can and will play both styles.
Direct soccer that results easy goals should not be looked at as bad soccer any more than possession soccer that never results in goals should be conceived as good soccer.

Agree with this 100pct. There are really good possession teams, and really good direct teams, but the most dangerous teams have the personnel and skill to do both and can switch on demand as needed.

I'm with pep, I grew to hate tiki-taka too, and towards the end of their reign when xavi got old and they had no ctr fwd, they played tiki taka and it was crap to watch. I for one am overjoyed the world has moved on from thinking that style is what everyone should be playing.

Love the beautiful game, but tiki taka is not it IMO.

To be clear, what you are trashing is the aimless passing of a ball around for no specific reason other than to possess. Not possession soccer.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by haterinho 22/10/14, 12:57 pm

Borussia wrote:
haterinho wrote:
rockindaddy wrote:Good teams and players can and will play both styles.
Direct soccer that results easy goals should not be looked at as bad soccer any more than possession soccer that never results in goals should be conceived as good soccer.

Agree with this 100pct. There are really good possession teams, and really good direct teams, but the most dangerous teams have the personnel and skill to do both and can switch on demand as needed.

I'm with pep, I grew to hate tiki-taka too, and towards the end of their reign when xavi got old and they had no ctr fwd, they played tiki taka and it was crap to watch. I for one am overjoyed the world has moved on from thinking that style is what everyone should be playing.

Love the beautiful game, but tiki taka is not it IMO.

Yes but Pep can't get me not to believe what my own eyes can see. That's exactly what barca did towards end of his term. Xavi must have passed back and forth to busquets 100 times a game. Their reign lasted longer than it should've because the world was memerized and too afraid to press them.  Once people figured out barca backline was soft as a baby's behind and they're so small they have no presence in the air...the mystique was gone and teams stopped sitting deep watching barca play tkiki taka and killing the game with boredom. LoL. And for me pep is the best one of top 3 coaches in the world.

__________________________________________________
"We don't fix blame; we fix problems." Dick LeBeau

haterinho
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 124
Points : 2776
Join date : 2014-07-31

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by banana kick 22/10/14, 02:31 pm

garageoffice wrote:
haterinho wrote:Agree with this 100pct. There are really good possession teams, and really good direct teams, but the most dangerous teams have the personnel and skill to do both and can switch on demand as needed.

This is exactly what I would expect.  A truly good team should develop the skill and soccer IQ to possess the ball consistently combined with the athleticism to compete 50/50 and take advantage of direct opportunities.  Also, I would expect there are plenty of times that one style or the other would be more effective against a given team.

And you would be correct.  The best teams can and do adapt.  As simple as it sounds, the teams with the better players most often win.  We can discuss tactics all day, and I would, but it really comes down to the quality on the field.  How you define quality is another matter.

Passing, like anything in soccer, should be done purposefully, and the purpose will necessarily change with the context.
banana kick
banana kick
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 178
Points : 3185
Join date : 2013-08-06

Back to top Go down

Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot Empty Re: Working the ball vs. giving it the big boot

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum