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Girls DA in 2017

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Post by Guest 01/01/16, 09:13 am

twotone wrote:3. IMO, this only make soccer more exclusive than ever. The parents that can pay the most money to play in this new league will be the ones that can get onto teams in the Girls DA, further missing more talent that can't afford to pay the high dollars. Again, no different than what youth soccer has been trending towards for the past 20 years anyway.

I sure hope you are off on this one.

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Post by Guest 01/01/16, 09:43 am

Sho'Nuff wrote:
twotone wrote:3. IMO, this only make soccer more exclusive than ever. The parents that can pay the most money to play in this new league will be the ones that can get onto teams in the Girls DA, further missing more talent that can't afford to pay the high dollars. Again, no different than what youth soccer has been trending towards for the past 20 years anyway.

I sure hope you are off on this one.

I have no inside info, but reading the tea leaves, I suspect DA will be less expensive than prior national leagues. If USSF thought that model was working they wouldn't need to start a girls DA. Even if girls side is not fully funded, I expect the league will do more to integrate the most talented players, and not just the most talented players with well heeled parents. It should be more exclusive, yes, but the boundary should be more about commitment and talent than cost. The question will be how effective can they be at cutting down travel and subsidizing some of the girls' training.

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Post by RightWingDad 01/01/16, 12:18 pm

Well, I'm curious. What would this do for ODP? I still believe ODP sees themselves as a player development pool for the national teams as stated on their website. I know here in NTX once the players reach ECNL age ODP becomes 2nd tier. However for other areas of the country who don't have access to ECNL programs as easily I perceive ODP is of more importance.

USSF governs all these various leagues so it will be interesting to see how they dictate the developmental pyramid for their national teams.
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Post by Zizou 01/01/16, 12:18 pm

If the girls DA is set up like the boys it should be zero cost to the player. I believe this to be the ultimate goal. Now how long it takes for clubs to gain the sponsorship or to obtain the revenue needed to provide zero cost to these players remains to be seen.

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Post by Zizou 01/01/16, 12:20 pm

ODP will have run it course and be obsolete or a bust.

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Post by RightWingDad 01/01/16, 12:28 pm

So if it's a bust, where do the kids in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky and many other states go since those states have no ECNL clubs?

DA would likely target talent rich areas and clubs like DFW, So & No Cal, Northern Va/PA, Florida etc. My guess anyway.
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Post by Zizou 01/01/16, 12:40 pm

Unfortunately, it will be tuffer for those players in those states to be identified. USSF has always pulled from the target rich player pool states.

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Post by RightWingDad 01/01/16, 12:47 pm

Maybe so. But there are about 16 states with no ECNL programs available and another 8 that only have one club.

Yeah, I am sure if you live in Montana or N/S Dakota soccer is not high on your list of sports...but even ODP serves them.

Wonder how much talent would be overlooked by giving up on athletes from those areas. And to think that subsidizing travel for players from those areas further adds to the financial burden.

OK, Happy New Age Pure Year to everyone. Should be a very interesting Jan - June here in North Texas.
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Post by jogobonito06 01/01/16, 12:58 pm

Zizou wrote:If the girls DA is set up like the boys it should be zero cost to the player. I believe this to be the ultimate goal. Now how long it takes for clubs to gain the sponsorship or to obtain the revenue needed to provide zero cost to these players remains to be seen.

The revenue stream is already in place if the clubs are serious about implementing this. Just check how many teams most have in each age group. Just be a little less dropping to the bottom line.
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Post by Guest 01/01/16, 01:52 pm

RightWingDad wrote:Maybe so. But there are about 16 states with no ECNL programs available and another 8 that only have one club.

Yeah, I am sure if you live in Montana or N/S Dakota soccer is not high on your list of sports...but even ODP serves them.

Wonder how much talent would be overlooked by giving up on athletes from those areas. And to think that subsidizing travel for players from those areas further adds to the financial burden.

OK, Happy New Age Pure Year to everyone. Should be a very interesting Jan - June here in North Texas.

The states with strongest odp are areas that have ecnl. IMO, NTX odp drops off because many club coaches actively discourage odp participation. Then when people notice many top players arent doing odp, it becomes follow the leader. Odp at regional level is 2nd tier to YNT pools, and maybe market training, but I dont see it as second tier to id2 (many players do both). The u15 GNT just spent their November camp playing very competitive games against 99 odp. Doubtful odp will be phased out after DA shows up.

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Post by RightWingDad 01/01/16, 03:24 pm

I can see ECNL club coaches discouraging players from ODP, but what about the others, LP, Mustangs, Odyssey, Triumph, FWFC, Andro, Spirit? Do they have a history of that as well?

My dd's coach likes the extra touches...but we're not a top tier D1 team either.
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Post by SD69 01/01/16, 04:43 pm

jogobonito07 wrote:
Zizou wrote:If the girls DA is set up like the boys it should be zero cost to the player. I believe this to be the ultimate goal. Now how long it takes for clubs to gain the sponsorship or to obtain the revenue needed to provide zero cost to these players remains to be seen.

The revenue stream is already in place if the clubs are serious about implementing this.  Just check how many teams most have in each age group.  Just be a little less dropping to the bottom line.
Or a little more going to the bottom line for everyone else not associated with DA.
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Post by boilerjoe_96 01/01/16, 05:56 pm

SD69 wrote:
jogobonito07 wrote:
Zizou wrote:If the girls DA is set up like the boys it should be zero cost to the player. I believe this to be the ultimate goal. Now how long it takes for clubs to gain the sponsorship or to obtain the revenue needed to provide zero cost to these players remains to be seen.

The revenue stream is already in place if the clubs are serious about implementing this.  Just check how many teams most have in each age group.  Just be a little less dropping to the bottom line.
Or a little more going to the bottom line for everyone else not associated with DA.

Agree... assuming a club will have less to the bottom line(aint gonna happen)...is like the rich evil business owner earning less if a burger flipper gets $15/hr. The cost will go up for all, and as noted, those without DA, if they charge the same, will have more to bottom line. Otherwise, DA-less clubs can charge less, so maybe a slight competitive advantage for them.
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Post by rzrFC 01/01/16, 06:32 pm

Zizou wrote:Unfortunately, it will be tuffer for those players in those states to be identified. USSF has always pulled from the target rich player pool states.

I believe the boys DAs recruit hard to get talent from anywhere. This includes help with housing, schools and transportation. That's why I think this is an after-the-fact gratuitous attempt for USSF to capitalize on the success of ECNL and USWNT.

Here is another thought; if we're the best in the world in the women's game with our current system, and second tier in our men's system, why in the hell are we letting USSF lead our ladies in the direction of the men. Seems to me we should scrap the USSDA for the men and create a men's ECNL...

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Post by Zizou 01/01/16, 06:53 pm

Yeah, the ECNL model to this point is working out well, but the powers that be did not come up with the solution like US soccer and ECNL did. That makes them feel left out so they flex their muscle and eliminate the threat.

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Post by ballhead 01/01/16, 08:18 pm

Zizou wrote:Yeah, the ECNL model to this point is working out well, but the powers that be did not come up with the solution like US soccer and ECNL did. That makes them feel left out so they flex their muscle and eliminate the threat.

In this case, I guess the Federation is the "powers that be."  What is the threat that USSF is eliminating?  As was mentioned earlier, USYSA and US Club are both sanctioned by USSF.
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Post by rzrFC 01/01/16, 10:04 pm

ballhead wrote:
Zizou wrote:Yeah, the ECNL model to this point is working out well, but the powers that be did not come up with the solution like US soccer and ECNL did. That makes them feel left out so they flex their muscle and eliminate the threat.

In this case, I guess the Federation is the "powers that be."  What is the threat that USSF is eliminating?  As was mentioned earlier, USYSA and US Club are both sanctioned by USSF.

Yes, all bodies in the US roll up to USSF.  The assertion that US Club Soccer (ECNL) and USYS (region, state and local association) are equal in the eyes of the USSF is completely false.  Even ODP rolls up through USYS.  

I don't want to speak for Zizou, but I'm assuming the threat he is referring to is relevance by USSF.  It's hard to argue the success of US Club Soccer and their flagship product, ECNL.  In my view, USSF simply "allowed" US Club/ECNL to exist, whereas they fully supported USYS and their projects.  USSF and USYS have been a bureaucratic cluster for decades.  US Club Soccer did not have the same support as USYS and rose in spite of USSF/USYS.  Their leadership will tell you as much. I would love to hear someone's of view of how USSF has supported ECNL; financially or otherwise.

Fact:  US Women's soccer is the best in the world
Fact:  ECNL is the league with the best players in the USA (See D1 recruits/players)
Fact:  USSF/USYS had many years to create a top league before US Club Soccer created ECNL.  See Regional/National Premier league and ODP.

So, the way I see it...USSF AND USYS fail to produce a quality national program.  US Club Soccer is allowed to operate autonomously and creates a pretty good national program.  Now, USSF says "give me the keys, we'll show you the right way to do this".

BTW, I'm just a soccer parent and have no dog in this fight.  I've just been around the game long enough to know it is worse than dealing with a bunch of gypsy construction contractors.

Dear U.S. Club Soccer, you can make this go away by announcing ECNL will be limited to 30 teams with a "Champions League" of the top 10.  NPL should be 60 or so clubs with relegation and promotion with ECNL.  Feed USSF's ego by changing the name of ECNL to Elite Clubs Development Academy.  There...everyone is happy...play on.

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Post by twotone 01/01/16, 10:08 pm

USWNT has been the best by having the bigger, stronger, faster athlete in it's setup. and most of the time they've been more financially stable than others and they tend to all look like each other. The world has been catching up and now the USWNT is starting to have to play soccer against it's opponents. Well, that's difficult when you have athletes, not soccer players. Winning the WWC was excellent in 2015, but this move is towards 2025

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Post by rzrFC 01/01/16, 10:29 pm

twotone wrote:USWNT has been the best by having the bigger, stronger, faster athlete in it's setup. and most of the time they've been more financially stable than others and they tend to all look like each other. The world has been catching up and now the USWNT is starting to have to play soccer against it's opponents. Well, that's difficult when you have athletes, not soccer players. Winning the WWC was excellent in 2015, but this move is towards 2025

Because the mens USSDA and the USMNT is much closer to Tiki Taka???... Gimme a break! This is the SAME organization that has been in charge since the USWNT came into existance. NOW they have it figured out?!?. ECNL has only been around long enough to just now see it's product on the USWNT. Convince me ENCL product Morgan Brian is anything other than the epitome of soccer IQ, touch and skill. There is your 2025. Not disagreeing with you about the transition of the USWNT...just blown away that anyone thinks we're not already headed that way. Heath, Klingenberg, Press, Brian,...these girls can flat out ball and there is a whole generation behind them.

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Post by soccerjack 01/01/16, 10:46 pm

Do you guys think all this could effect my kid playing in lh's a few years and then maybe in hs? I feel like I should be reading an annual report or maybe an indictment sheet for collusion to keep up to date on little girl soccer.
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Post by Zizou 01/01/16, 11:00 pm

This could effect her high school playing status if she was to make an academy team. Other than that no worries.

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Post by ballhead 01/01/16, 11:11 pm

rzrFC wrote:
ballhead wrote:
Zizou wrote:Yeah, the ECNL model to this point is working out well, but the powers that be did not come up with the solution like US soccer and ECNL did. That makes them feel left out so they flex their muscle and eliminate the threat.

In this case, I guess the Federation is the "powers that be."  What is the threat that USSF is eliminating?  As was mentioned earlier, USYSA and US Club are both sanctioned by USSF.

Yes, all bodies in the US roll up to USSF.  The assertion that US Club Soccer (ECNL) and USYS (region, state and local association) are equal in the eyes of the USSF is completely false.  Even ODP rolls up through USYS.  

I don't want to speak for Zizou, but I'm assuming the threat he is referring to is relevance by USSF.  It's hard to argue the success of US Club Soccer and their flagship product, ECNL.  In my view, USSF simply "allowed" US Club/ECNL to exist, whereas they fully supported USYS and their projects.  USSF and USYS have been a bureaucratic cluster for decades.  US Club Soccer did not have the same support as USYS and rose in spite of USSF/USYS.  Their leadership will tell you as much. I would love to hear someone's of view of how USSF has supported ECNL; financially or otherwise.

Fact:  US Women's soccer is the best in the world
Fact:  ECNL is the league with the best players in the USA (See D1 recruits/players)
Fact:  USSF/USYS had many years to create a top league before US Club Soccer created ECNL.  See Regional/National Premier league and ODP.

So, the way I see it...USSF AND USYS fail to produce a quality national program.  US Club Soccer is allowed to operate autonomously and creates a pretty good national program.  Now, USSF says "give me the keys, we'll show you the right way to do this".

BTW, I'm just a soccer parent and have no dog in this fight.  I've just been around the game long enough to know it is worse than dealing with a bunch of gypsy construction contractors.

Dear U.S. Club Soccer, you can make this go away by announcing ECNL will be limited to 30 teams with a "Champions League" of the top 10.  NPL should be 60 or so clubs with relegation and promotion with ECNL.  Feed USSF's ego by changing the name of ECNL to Elite Clubs Development Academy.  There...everyone is happy...play on.

My dd is in college now, but she came up through USYSA, Premier League, and was in ECNL from when it first came to town and consisted of around 40 clubs.  At one time or another, each of those entities thought (or still think) they are at the top.  Heck, I've read numerous posts on this board that the ECNL is nothing but a money grab, is too expensive, and simply not worth it.  Now it's the best.

I think the ECNL has done a great job, and today, without a doubt, it's the most effective stage for an athlete to be seen and recruited by a college coach, but it's not the best of the best across the board.  Look at the standings locally and across the country, and it's easy to see that there are teams (and clubs) all over that struggle to win a game.  Maybe they're just developing players and they aren't trying to win games, or maybe clubs were added for their revenue potential.  There are close to 80 clubs in the ECNL now.  Do you really think they're going to willingly give up 2/3 of their revenue stream to NPL?  I don't really disagree with your thoughts, I just don't see it happening because these fiefdoms have already been built, and there's turf to protect now.

But I've always said it's just the latest best thing, and eventually, there was going to be another best thing to try to out do it.  If it's not a girls DA, it'll be something else.  I hope it works out, but if it doesn't, someone else come up with something else.
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Post by ballhead 01/01/16, 11:32 pm

I'm also not sure that the other 50 or so ECNL clubs would accept being relegated from the mother ship down to NPL.  Today, I think USYSA's National League would be considered a higher level than NPL.  I suspect you'd see another "top" league crop up from those teams.
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Post by rzrFC 02/01/16, 09:37 am

You speak the truth ballhead and I have no disagreement with any of your points. ECNL is a victim of there own success by expanding beyond their original intent. My argument is that U.S. Club Soccer's success rate with leagues (NPL and ENCL) is light years ahead of anything USSF or USYS has done for young ladies. As I said in my earlier posts, USSF should support and enhance what IS working...ECNL. If they are trying to fix something that's broken, maybe they should start with the men's side. Or, regional leagues.

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Post by Guest 02/01/16, 11:09 am

rzrFC wrote:You speak the truth ballhead and I have no disagreement with any of your points.  ECNL is a victim of there own success by expanding beyond their original intent.  My argument is that U.S. Club Soccer's success rate with leagues (NPL and ENCL) is light years ahead of anything USSF or USYS has done for young ladies.  As I said in my earlier posts, USSF should support and enhance what IS working...ECNL.  If they are trying to fix something that's broken, maybe they should start with the men's side.  Or, regional leagues.

Your argument that US Club Soccer's leagues are working because the WNT won the world cup is flawed. First off neither morgan brian nor press nor any of the other players named can be legitimately claimed as ecnl products. They all came up through the old system of usys and odp. Brian may have played a few games in ecnl u23 after she was already in college and a long time NT player. Go check where she actually played her club soccer.

Second off, where is the evidence ecnl is producing more talented YNTs than the old system? Several ecnl era YNT  have recently struggled in international competitions whereas the old gals basically dominated all minnows. After the u20s performance at last u20wc, it looked to me ussf started taking more ownership of their scouting and started expanding their call ups to include more non ecnl players. Ecnl still dominates rosters, but ussf realized they needed to also id fantastic players not in ecnl.

Thirdly, if you watched the wwc you saw the gap between us and the rest of the world rapidly closing. We needed an abby moment to get past nigeria and some good calls and a pk miss to put away germany. Yes the ladies destroyed japan in the final, but if you look at the entire picture of the early rounds plus the trends of our YNTs, ussf would be silly to sit on their hands and conclude no improvements are needed. The women don't have the same goals as the men. They're trying to retain their spot as the best in the world.

ECNL hooked up college coaches with aspiring players more efficiently than any prior league. The top ecnl talent is better than any other youth league. As more and more clubs that send kids to NTs get ecnl added, there is no longer any debate about those points. But the idea every ecnl team is strong top to bottom, or is on a different level than all non ecnl, is myth. Myth supported largely by the type of marketing that made you believe morgan brian was an ecnl product.

DA could be a huge win for womens soccer. Even moreso if ussf creates a sensible structure for the levels below to feed the DA with similarly trained players who have also been exposed to standards based, competitive environments. Hopefully that structure allows free movement between the levels as players or clubs progress or regress. The quality in the base and middle tiers will ultimately determine how good the top can become.

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Post by SEAOTTER 02/01/16, 06:40 pm

4-3-3 wrote:
rzrFC wrote:You speak the truth ballhead and I have no disagreement with any of your points.  ECNL is a victim of there own success by expanding beyond their original intent.  My argument is that U.S. Club Soccer's success rate with leagues (NPL and ENCL) is light years ahead of anything USSF or USYS has done for young ladies.  As I said in my earlier posts, USSF should support and enhance what IS working...ECNL.  If they are trying to fix something that's broken, maybe they should start with the men's side.  Or, regional leagues.

Your argument that US Club Soccer's leagues are working because the WNT won the world cup is flawed. First off neither morgan brian nor press nor any of the other players named can be legitimately claimed as ecnl products. They all came up through the old system of usys and odp. Brian may have played a few games in ecnl u23 after she was already in college and a long time NT player. Go check where she actually played her club soccer.

Second off, where is the evidence ecnl is producing more talented YNTs than the old system? Several ecnl era YNT  have recently struggled in international competitions whereas the old gals basically dominated all minnows. After the u20s performance at last u20wc, it looked to me ussf started taking more ownership of their scouting and started expanding their call ups to include more non ecnl players. Ecnl still dominates rosters, but ussf realized they needed to also id fantastic players not in ecnl.

Thirdly, if you watched the wwc you saw the gap between us and the rest of the world rapidly closing. We needed an abby moment to get past nigeria and some good calls and a pk miss to put away germany. Yes the ladies destroyed japan in the final, but if you look at the entire picture of the early rounds plus the trends of our YNTs, ussf would be silly to sit on their hands and conclude no improvements are needed. The women don't have the same goals as the men. They're trying to retain their spot as the best in the world.

ECNL hooked up college coaches with aspiring players more efficiently than any prior league. The top ecnl talent is better than any other youth league. As more and more clubs that send kids to NTs get ecnl added, there is no longer any debate about those points. But the idea every ecnl team is strong top to bottom, or is on a different level than all non ecnl, is myth. Myth supported largely by the type of marketing that made you believe morgan brian was an ecnl product.

DA could be a huge win for womens soccer. Even moreso if ussf creates a sensible structure for the levels below to feed the DA with similarly trained players who have also been exposed to standards based, competitive environments. Hopefully that structure allows free movement between the levels as players or clubs progress or regress. The quality in the base and middle tiers will ultimately determine how good the top can become.

very well said..

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