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Shame on US soccer. The ugly face of discrimination.

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Post by Guest 01/04/16, 10:23 pm

go99 wrote:I hardly think the mens team are lions.  And no they are propping up the league here so they can keep those players here in the US.  They were already being paid decent salaries overseas.  They may not be making messi money but they weren't starving either.  I love it.  Look at the anger here of men completely upset by the idea of a woman being paid the same as a man.  Again a percentage deal solves the problem or hell just pay the worthless mens team less

Not saying usmnt are lions...saying the women's competitive landscape is not remotely comparable...neither is the revenue, nor the global interest.  And pretty sure I read somewhere our women already get a bigger % of their fifa revenue than our men. IMO it's a payday for the lawyers, and a slap in the face to the real cases of gender discrimination the EEOC should consider. They're willing to set the whole thing on fire using lawyers and public opinion to get a better CBA...I hope it ends up worth it.

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Post by TatonkaBurger 02/04/16, 09:40 pm

The EEOC has plenty of frivolous charges to deal with. All they can do is grant the USWNT members a right to sue based on their allegations. By the way, those RTS letters are not hard to get and they will no doubt get one for this issue. It is politicized enough to pass this male vs female argument to the next level.  This won't go away anytime soon without  a new CBA negotiation.

I've seen enough of it in the food service industry. As you were...
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Post by go99 03/04/16, 09:59 am

4-3-3 wrote:
go99 wrote:I hardly think the mens team are lions.  And no they are propping up the league here so they can keep those players here in the US.  They were already being paid decent salaries overseas.  They may not be making messi money but they weren't starving either.  I love it.  Look at the anger here of men completely upset by the idea of a woman being paid the same as a man.  Again a percentage deal solves the problem or hell just pay the worthless mens team less

Not saying usmnt are lions...saying the women's  competitive landscape is not  remotely comparable...neither is the revenue, nor the global interest.   And pretty sure I read somewhere our women already get a bigger % of their fifa revenue than our men. IMO it's  a payday for the lawyers, and a slap in the face to the real cases of gender discrimination the EEOC should consider.  They're willing to set the whole thing on fire using lawyers and public opinion to get a better CBA...I hope it ends up worth it.

Not sure if they get a bigger percentage of their FIFI revenue than the men or not but the "FIFA" revenue is just a small percentage of all revenue generated. Again it seems simple to eliminate the confusion pay the woman and men a EQUAL percentage of revenue generated. Right now the woman may then make more. If the men can stop being average they would make more. Either way there wouldn't be much to complain about because you would then be paid on what you earn.
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Post by Guest 11/04/16, 10:38 pm

And so it begins. If they actually strike, im losing all respect for some of these players. Not once have I read any of them advocate for other pros like the nwsl players making peanuts. They say nothing about other nations whose women are scraping nickels together just to get a chance to (occasionally) practice or travel to games. This is about making more guaranteed money for a handful of entitled players who think their media status makes them irreplaceable.

Bring on the scabs that will gladly play for the pride of representing their country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/04/11/u-s-womens-soccer-players-could-boycott-olympics-over-pay-dispute/

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Post by Deuce 23/04/16, 08:51 am

This does a good job laying out the various issues involved in the whole thing...

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/sports/soccer/usmnt-uswnt-soccer-equal-pay.html?smid=tw-nytsports&smtyp=cur&referer=https://t.co/VW5y7Ci0Nn

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Post by 1more_dd_dad 23/04/16, 11:02 am

I find myself agreeing with 4-3-3 way too much on this issue...
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Post by Guest 24/04/16, 10:29 am

1more_dd_dad wrote:I find myself agreeing with 4-3-3 way too much on this issue...

A broke clock is right twice a day ain't it? Lol.

In all seriousness, seeing the PR blitz and political opportunists like Clinton and Obama jumping on it pretty much sealed the deal for me that this was all very well orchestrated by the lawyers the women hired.

The women definitely should have the same playing conditions and per diems etc. But the idea what they do is "equal work" is laughable when they've been run off the field on multiple occasions by u17 boys teams. My mother is a physician, and she did equal work, with the same credentials, treating the same patients, and had to fight to be paid what she was worth. I work with women colleagues who do the same job and deserve every bit of what anyone else gets for the same performance.

American media is pretty ignorant about the sport, so they've given the 5 players a free pass with the idea they win more than our men against mostly subpar competition so therefore they not only do equal work, but are better than the men. The women taking shots at the mens team is just super classless to me...contrast that with other nations where the men are cheering on and sending bonus money to help their women.

The most balanced article ive read that does more than parrot the rah rah PR the 5 players are flooding the media with was published by the english:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/11/uswnt-womens-soccer-pay-gamble-gender-equality

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Post by Guest 24/04/16, 11:02 am

The more I read on this, the more and more this looks to me like the women just got far better legal representation this time around, then the last time they negotiated their CBA.

The legal team realized that the best thing for the women was to shine a big, bright light on the situation and f orce US Soccer to be more transparent about the revenue flow going into the next CBA negotiation.

There are some clear inequities that need to be addressed (appearance fees, per diem, travel accommodations, playing surface quality, etc.), but they have to figure out if a bonus/salary structure similar to the MNT really benefits the majority of the players, especially given the current status of the women's professional leagues.

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Post by CBTeamworks 24/04/16, 11:03 am

The fact that the USWNT has been beaten numerous times by U17 boys is a moot point. Soccer is entertainment. We don't reward the best musicians (entertainment) but rather those who sell tickets and generate revenue. Revenue generation is the work, not the outcome of games vs 17 year old boys.
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Post by Lefty 24/04/16, 04:45 pm

Bla Bla Bla.

Everyone wants to be a victim.

The new American way.

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Post by newbiefornow 24/04/16, 06:49 pm

Sometimes you get what you negotiate. No victims here unless we're all feeling sorry for US Soccer. I don't think US Soccer is feeling particularly sorry for themselves. I agree with Ggophers they got better representation. They needed to.

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Post by Guest 24/04/16, 07:32 pm

CBTeamworks wrote:The fact that the USWNT has been beaten numerous times by U17 boys is a moot point. Soccer is entertainment. We don't reward the best musicians (entertainment) but rather those who sell tickets and generate revenue. Revenue generation is the work, not the outcome of games vs 17 year old boys.

Not really..they are filing an EEOC discrimination claim. Equal pay act says, "the EPA provides that employers may not pay unequal wages to men and women who perform jobs that require substantially equal skill, effort and responsibility, and that are performed under similar working conditions within the same establishment.

So in effect these 5 women are claiming they have substantially equal skill performed under similar working condition as the men...which is absurd to anyone with even a base understanding of the differences in the mens and womens game. Im no lawyer, but the fact they arent in the same stratosphere of skill seems relevant to me for a discrimination claim.

And do the research on the revenue. The women overstate their contribution in a fairly deceptive manner...which could eventually backfire. They killed ussf in round 1 of the PR war...but if they strike and more media dig into facts I could see a different outcome for round 2.

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Post by CBTeamworks 24/04/16, 08:03 pm

4-3-3 wrote:
CBTeamworks wrote:The fact that the USWNT has been beaten numerous times by U17 boys is a moot point. Soccer is entertainment. We don't reward the best musicians (entertainment) but rather those who sell tickets and generate revenue. Revenue generation is the work, not the outcome of games vs 17 year old boys.

Not really..they are filing an EEOC discrimination claim.  Equal pay act says, "the EPA provides that employers may not pay unequal wages to men and women who perform jobs that require substantially equal skill, effort and responsibility, and that are performed under similar working conditions within the same establishment.

So in effect these 5 women are claiming they have substantially equal skill performed under similar working condition as the men...which is absurd to anyone with even a base understanding of the differences in the mens and womens game.  Im no lawyer, but the fact they arent in the same stratosphere of skill seems relevant to me for  a discrimination claim.

And do the research on the revenue. The women overstate their contribution in a fairly deceptive manner...which could eventually backfire. They killed ussf in round 1 of the PR war...but if they strike and more media dig into facts I could see a different outcome for round 2.

I wasn't aware that the men had won the World Cup.
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Post by Guest 24/04/16, 09:32 pm

CBTeamworks wrote:
I wasn't aware that the men had won the World Cup.

And here I thought this was about to get interesting. Lol. You win. I support the USWNT. When this is done, I hope the new generation can focus on being ambassadors for the game and growing the sport.

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Post by CBTeamworks 24/04/16, 10:04 pm

4-3-3 wrote:
CBTeamworks wrote:
I wasn't aware that the men had won the World Cup.

And here I thought this was about to get interesting. Lol. You win. I support the USWNT. When this is done,  I hope the new generation can focus on being ambassadors for the game and growing the sport.

Hopefully the next gen will be ever more encouraged to dare to dream about making good money as professional women's soccer players. Making money grows the sport.
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Post by Guest 24/04/16, 10:31 pm

CBTeamworks wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:
CBTeamworks wrote:
I wasn't aware that the men had won the World Cup.

And here I thought this was about to get interesting. Lol. You win. I support the USWNT. When this is done,  I hope the new generation can focus on being ambassadors for the game and growing the sport.

Hopefully the next gen will be ever more encouraged to dare to dream about making good money as professional women's soccer players. Making money grows the sport.

Exactly. So USSF should stop paying NWSL salaries for these entitled vets and distribute that money to the franchises for them to do as they please. The ballers should be getting their primary $$$ from clubs, not the national team. USSF supported MLS for years to help them get off the ground, now do the same for the NWSL.

Build the pro game, which isn't the same thing as fattening the wallets of a few entitled national team players. Stop seeking out pretty faces and giving them guaranteed WNT contracts so you can annoint them before they go get body painted in men's mags.

Make the NWSL what kids aspire to, so kids can make a decent living based on talent. The national team will then take care of itself, without USSF being held hostage by celebrities they created.

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Post by Guest 25/04/16, 06:53 am

4-3-3 wrote:
CBTeamworks wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:
CBTeamworks wrote:
I wasn't aware that the men had won the World Cup.

And here I thought this was about to get interesting. Lol. You win. I support the USWNT. When this is done,  I hope the new generation can focus on being ambassadors for the game and growing the sport.

Hopefully the next gen will be ever more encouraged to dare to dream about making good money as professional women's soccer players. Making money grows the sport.

Exactly. So USSF should stop paying NWSL salaries for these entitled vets and distribute that money to the franchises for them to do as they please. The ballers should be getting their primary $$$ from clubs, not the national team. USSF supported MLS for years to help them get off the ground, now do the same for the NWSL.

Build the pro game, which isn't the same thing as fattening the wallets of a few entitled national team players. Stop seeking out pretty faces and giving them guaranteed WNT contracts so you can annoint them before they go get body painted in men's mags.

Make the NWSL what kids aspire to, so kids can make a decent living based on talent. The national team will then take care of itself, without USSF being held hostage by celebrities they created.

Dude, why so cranky??? It's not like the Steelers lost yesterday... Oh wait... affraid

(Sorry, couldn't resist. Don't get to poke the big bear very often...)

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Post by Guest 25/04/16, 08:58 am

Things that tick me off the most:

1) A small group of people with so much privilege and advantage over there competitors are out here pissing on the game using their lawyer,

2) Instead of just making their own case, some of these same women are consistently taking shots at the MNT in the media,

3) The angle they sold to the media was based on half-truths and fuzzy math, meant to take advantage of the political environment,

4) This could end up hurting the NWSL and the women's pro game if USSF is forced to fork over a ton of its budget to lawyers and the pocketbooks of a small handful of WNT players,

5) USSF can't really come after them because to do so in earnest means they would be destroying their own brand.

I think any long haul fan of American soccer should be concerned. And those of us prone to hyperbole, well we can get cranky over something like this real quick! Smile

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Post by go99 25/04/16, 09:39 am

shocking!!!

Grown men (with daughters) actually angry that woman would have the audacity to ask for equal pay. Now you can see why woman are paid less in this country.

These woman aren't doing it for themselves. They are part of the small, select group who have the endorsements and other revenue streams so they don't need it. This is for the other WNT players who do need it. Those woman could not launch a lawsuit. They would just be cut and ignored. This is people at the top standing in front of the bullets for those below them.

Now to be clear both sides have fuzzy math but while the amount the WNT is paid less by may be in question the fact that they are paid less is not.

The NWSL isn't FOR womans soccer it is for US soccer. Woman are more than capable of going overseas to some very well established womans leagues around the world. They are supporting NWSL because having a domestic professional league helps to boost domestic play. If they did not support the larger salaries that the new league cannot afford then the top players would just play overseas.

Now you can agree or disagree that they should be paid the same. You can even disagree with how they went about it (although asking nicely usually doesn't work) But the anger displayed in this thread at them is shocking.

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Post by progressiveparent 25/04/16, 10:50 am

Well said Go99
Shame on some of you.

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Post by Guest 25/04/16, 10:52 am

I may choke on this as I type it, but I tend to agree more with GO99 than 4-3-3 on this. I don't get the sense that this is the top players trying to get theirs without giving a crap about the rank and file. I get the sense that this is their legal team advising them that the leverage comes from the top players filing the lawsuit at a time when their visibility and popularity is at an all-time high.

Again, I see this whole thing as the Women, through the advice of their legal team, creating maximum leverage for themselves heading into the next CBA. You can certainly argue whether the approach was the correct one, but the real leverage comes from the superstars committing to the process. Hopefully they will be able to create benefit that will be reaped by the rank-and-file.

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Post by Guest 25/04/16, 11:21 am

You guys need to look into the details of how the women setup pay structures for the stars vs the rank and file. They have a history of forming cliques to protect their status and keep the youngers shut out (i.e. they ran off sermanni when he tried to start calling up younger players).

They beat the stuffing out of Columbia, who has barely played at all since WWC summer 2015, and whose fed is actually not paying them AT ALL. If they were about social justice, seems you would've heard them make mention of it?  Maybe they did, dunno, I didn't see it.

Having been raised by and surrounded by strong women, I'm all for equality for women. I just don't see these coddled players as legit candidates to carry this flag.

And no, there are only a few overseas teams that are competitive and able to fund living wages for American players. They are the ones funded by major clubs. Even then the attendance and interest for most those international women's club games is non existent.  A few clubs blow the doors off everyone else. At any point, those men's clubs could decide to stop losing money bankrolling their women's teams - then what?

Stop acting like the NWSL is holding back American players just to benefit USSF. Vast majority of american kids won't have any pro options if the NWSL goes belly up. , which was the case before, and the reason WHY the women negotiated guaranteed salaries in their last CBA, instead of a deal more like the men.

Why should they have to go europe anyway if a good percentage of the best female players in the world are in the states?


Last edited by 4-3-3 on 25/04/16, 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by InaB 25/04/16, 11:31 am

4-3-3, having faced pay discrimination all of my working life, I can totally understand the women's team's point of view. As someone said in the string, the men's teams get paid just for rolling out of bed and making it to the field - and that pay is much, much higher than the women's teams that win consistently.

Granted, to date, the crowds are bigger for the men's events, but when you look at what our men's team and players made for losing, compared to what the women's team received for "Winning," it is totally out of balance. It is no wonder that the men's team doesn't do better, why should they when they get great pay days for showing up?

How else are the women to bring this to the attention of a still male dominated world? There is still a great deal of sexism at the top (middle and bottom).

It is time we finally get past the condescending tones, and snickers about females trying to have equal rights. When male basketball, baseball or football players sue for equal pay, is that OK? If golfers, race car drivers or jockeys sue, is that ok? I am quite sure that their lawyers get a great payday as well.

Unfortunately, Women haven't come far enough along yet on the stage of equality. It doesn't matter which arena we are speaking of here when it comes to discrimination. When it comes to correcting imbalances, a win in soccer pushes forward all women, just as it would if it was in any other area of discrimination. I am with BW on this, someone with enough clout has to push the issue forward. In the end, it will benefit all female players.
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Post by go99 25/04/16, 11:33 am

they don't have to go to Europe but without the USSF propping up the new league the money would be better overseas. What is happening in Columbia has absolutely NOTHING to do with them being paid less than men here. That's like suggesting that ALL woman here should stop complaining about making less than men because woman working in Columbia make less than they do. The NWSL isn't holding anyone back. It is a new league trying to establish itself with the help of the USSF. But stop acting like it's the job of woman to make the sacrifice to support the league.

So if the stars aren't the ones to carry the flag for the rest of the woman on the NT then who is?
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Post by newbiefornow 25/04/16, 12:08 pm

Women's Tennis is the example I'd like Soccer to follow. The Tennis is great, the audience is big and the compensation reflects that. The whole debate about whether the best men can beat the best women is over and irrelevant. Sports were considered "un-lady like" a generation ago. It's going to take a generation to get past that BUT our kids will laugh at this. Women are becoming Sports Fans and they will want to watch people and teams they can identify with. The WMSL is getting investment because some folks have seen the demand for the Product and are investing in the creation of it.

Serena Williams is not being criticized for having an agent or for expecting big Prize money and she's not being told to hand it out to her sisters.. The voices tend to be a little more shrill when female Athletes stand up for themselves but the same gripping goes on when there's a Sports strike by the men. We don't own our Sports stars male or female. They have a unique talent that they work hard to maintain and cultivate. That goes for Baseball, Basketball and Soccer. Not to be too obvious but we pay to be entertained by that talent, how much is generally a function of how many of us go or tune in.

I think the negotiation is good. I don't blame US Soccer for wanting to keep as much money under their control as possible and  I don't blame US Women for standing up to US Soccer and saying we've earned more than you're offering. In this case I happen to be more on the side of the players.

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Post by InaB 25/04/16, 12:34 pm

Amen Newbie
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