North Texas Soccer Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Log in

I forgot my password

Be An Athletic Supporter!
Donate and get this nifty tag!

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Pixel
Statistics
We have 15368 registered users
The newest registered user is Jtkmd1

Our users have posted a total of 204650 messages in 31542 subjects

gotta love it....

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by Guest 13/04/16, 10:29 pm

It's a rough sport...hence why most cultures around the world frown on women playing it. The young ladies who play all the way through our youth system, survive high school, and are good enough to play college are TOUGH chicks. All of them. Even the skillful, small ones (especially). Our game is a crucible, and the finished product has no choice but to have a serious element of hardness.

I've noticed  parents complain about the physicality allowed until their kids get a certain age. At some point we have seen enough battles and enough injuries to our kids or their friends that we accept the sport has significant physical risks, and these are risks these warrior chicks take on because they love it. Focus shifts from parents blaming refs to  just hoping / praying for the safety of all participants. Refs can't reduce the physicality in the game. That has to come from our soccer culture...i.e coaches, admins, assignors, parents, players, etc. All refs can do is call fouls. The game is not rough because of refs.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by tmcc 13/04/16, 11:34 pm

I disagree 4-3-3. If a center sets the tone early in the game, using his/her whistle and then follows up with a booking when deserved, I think a ref can control the physicality of a game. I have always said red cards issued in a men's World Cup are rarely whistled as a foul in Lake Highlands. That is a sad truth.
tmcc
tmcc
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 405
Points : 4941
Join date : 2010-08-14
Location : Sometimes, when you mess with the bull, you get the horns!

Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by Rico_Passe 14/04/16, 09:10 am

Yes, it's a tough sport... http://coachingamericansoccer.com/soccer-rules/soccer-is-a-contact-sport/

and, there istruth is some of what has been mentioned, but there are plenty professionally-written articles that support the role of the ref(s) in the safety of players and setting the tone for the game--not impeding the pace of the game, but moderate control and setting the tone:

http://nisoa.com/instruction/news/2009/05/23/game-control/

http://soccerrefereeusa.com/Game%20Management%20Model-Flow%20Risk%20Taking%20Game%20Control.pdf

http://www.football-knowledge.com/football-referees-duties-and-responsibilities/

and from this LONG article
 http://www.watchandwhistle.org/ (especially the section about "Let Them Play vs Let Them Fight"


Last edited by Rico_Passe on 14/04/16, 10:16 am; edited 2 times in total
Rico_Passe
Rico_Passe
TxSoccer Poster
TxSoccer Poster

Posts : 84
Points : 4578
Join date : 2010-08-29

Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by Guest 14/04/16, 09:18 am

Agreed 100% the ref can use the whistle and match management skills to set the tone for what he/she will tolerate. If a ref is constantly littering cards all over the place and all their games are chaotic death matches, probably means the ref is doing games beyond his/her current experience or ability. A good ref does try to use a bit of art and skill to manage the ebb and flow of intensity in a game.

Disagree 100% that amounts to the ref having power to CONTROL THE PHYSICALITY of a game, anymore than chicago police can control the level of violence by putting more people in jail.

Good example was the u15 game I watched Saturday. Team A was clearly more finesse, smaller and skilled than their opponent team B. Big, fast, aggressive forward from team B was sprinting down the wing onto a through ball. Small, agile, and even faster defender from team A was behind the play, and despite a poor angle, used her superior acceleration and top end speed to cleanly beat the forward to the ball and play it out of bounds. Defender probably was at least half a foot and 40lbs smaller than the forward. Forward sees the defender play the ball away, and instead of checking her run, accelerates another couple steps and delivers a very violent forearm block into the defender sending her immediately off her feet, with her head snapping back as she hit the ground. Classic 80s era sam line backer stuff, and the sound of the pop definitely reminded me of pointy ball.

Ref immediately shows up and calls the foul. Definitely should've been a yellow, but looked like he chose to talk to forward instead.

None of that was particularly noteworthy, except I was sitting near Team B's parents and heard one dad yell out "REALLY!" to the ref for calling this foul. Only one dad from Team A replied, "yeah, Really", in a rather subdued tone. Had this been a U11 game, entire sideline would've been up in arms. A high level u15 game, mostly silence. Most the parents were probably thinking the same thing I was, hope she's ok.

The ref had called a tight game prior to that, and continued to call a tight game afterwards, which played into the hands of the more skillful team. Team B ramped up the physicality as they fell further behind. Ref did his job, but had the player I mentioned above landed awkwardly, she very well could've broken something given the violence of that impact. Had it been a different playing surface, she easily could've had a concussion. But the CULTURE of the game is what makes this player's hit within the boundaries of acceptability. It's why the one dad could even imagine such a hit should NOT have even been called a foul.

Refs are minnows in terms of influence on this culture. The kid who delivered that hit probably got a high five from a coach or parent or fellow player. A scout might've made a positive note of the player's willingness to get "stuck in."  Even if the ref had red-carded the player, he would not have controlled her from making the hit in the first place, and rather than serving as deterent, there's just as much chance issuing red would've ESCALATED physicality from Team B.

Refs don't have any magical powers to change the boundaries of acceptable behavior. League admins and governing bodies can influence it with rules changes and directives given to assignors. Coaches at all levels influence it most heavily. Parents have some influence in terms of what they allow their kids to be subjected to (whilst paying for it). Put refs at the bottom of the list.


Last edited by 4-3-3 on 14/04/16, 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by Rico_Passe 14/04/16, 09:38 am

valid point...the ref cannot stop all mismatches between physical build and athletic giftedness nor can they eliminate the physicality of the game, but they do play a role in at least attempting to control the game, etc,... and this DOES set an early tone and the players are very much aware of how the ref is going to call the game early on and plays the remainder of their game accordingly.  I have heard players talk about it before, during and after games.  "Well, if he's not going to call it, just do it.." type-talk--clearly the players know that they shouldn't be playing in that manner because they just verbalized that the ref isn't making calls he/she should be making and is allowing things to go.  This is what I'm referring to.  Soccer is rough. No doubt.  Reffing is even tougher--no unrealistic expectation of perfection here, but the referee team is the third team on the field and their interjection and presence in the game does matter.  Otherwise, why not just play the game without refs?  I have seen games where they just as well not even be out there. And even with a confident ref, there will still be injuries and an understood risk to this game--there's no changing that, for sure. I also agree with 4-3-3 and others who have commented, that the ref issue runs deeper than just blowing the whistle--this is a small part.
Rico_Passe
Rico_Passe
TxSoccer Poster
TxSoccer Poster

Posts : 84
Points : 4578
Join date : 2010-08-29

Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by CBTeamworks 14/04/16, 10:39 am

4-3-3, this culture of swallowing the whistle encourages more physical play. A ref calling fouls and issuing cards appropriately discourages overly physical play. If the physical forward on Team B had been carded in previous games they'd be afraid to get another card in the current game. Refs are not minnows. Their action or inaction impacts the physicality of everything that happens after a physical play occurs. This is bigger than the refs. This is the responsibility of the league and their director of officiating to get the proper balance of physical play. Right now they're just stealing money and not doing their jobs. The sad part is that there's no recourse because for the most part it's a system without competition.
CBTeamworks
CBTeamworks
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 361
Points : 3797
Join date : 2013-08-12

Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by Guest 14/04/16, 11:50 am

CBTeamworks wrote: This is bigger than the refs. This is the responsibility of the league and their director of officiating to get the proper balance of physical play.  

On this we can agree.

If a ref calls games with constant chirping and carding because he's enforcing his own standards, guess how many games that ref will get after the coaches complain about him too many times to assignors?

The NBA decided the game was too physical at some point in the last 15 years. They changed the culture of the game such that NBA players now can flop all over the place crying about touches that wouldn't have been considered fouls in the 90s.

The refs didn't just up and decide they were going to call games differently. NBA decided they wanted to change the product and gear it more towards offense and less towards defense. Same thing is happening in the NFL as we speak.

Unless US Soccer decides the entertainment value of the PRODUCT needs to be more about entertaining offense, and then creates policies to trickle those changes down through all levels of the game, the culture of our game will be what it is...rough and tumble with flashes of skill. And parents will continue to complain about refs not calling what they perceive to be fouls, until their kids get old enough that they realize what they are seeing is how our game is played.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by soccersounder 14/04/16, 01:09 pm

Father of the Wall wrote:Ok, I will bite.  10sDad, since "NTX refs are a joke" I guess you will be first in line at the next referee class that is available.  I am assuming you would like to use your expert insight that you gathered sitting in your folding chair on the sideline to help drastically improve the NTX Ref situation.  My daughter is a ref and a D1 select player.  She sees it from all sides.  When she plays, she does not always agree on the refs calls but she is respectful of their position.  When she refs, parents rarely agree with any call she makes and there is very little respect given.  It is really a no win situation for any ref that is involved in any game.  I am not saying that refs do not have bad games or miss calls.  Its going to happen. Unless you are in the same position on the field as the Ref you can't tell what they see.  Did the player flop?  Was the ref's view obstructed by several of the 22 bodies that are on the field between him and the alleged foul? Was the reason the player got knocked down just simply physics?  Two players collide and the one with the most mass won?  Normally, these guys ref because they love the game of soccer.  Believe me it is not because of the paycheck.  I suggest everyone take the ref class.  When I helped my daughter study to become a ref it really provided insight and actually taught me the real rules of the game.  Not the Soccer Mom or Soccer dad opinion of what the rules should be.  I cant tell you how many select games I sit and listen to parents yell "hand ball" at the ref just because they saw the ball hit the hand or "off sides" when a player is all the way across the field, not involved in the play?  How can a parent complain about a missed off side call from their chair clear on the opposite end of the field? If you feel so upset about the refs calls then don't cry about it on a message board. Man up and get involved. Become a ref.  Walk a mile in their shoes.  Make a difference.

My new favorite post ever...
soccersounder
soccersounder
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 411
Points : 4303
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by soccersounder 14/04/16, 01:13 pm

4-3-3 wrote:It's a rough sport...hence why most cultures around the world frown on women playing it. The young ladies who play all the way through our youth system, survive high school, and are good enough to play college are TOUGH chicks. All of them. Even the skillful, small ones (especially). Our game is a crucible, and the finished product has no choice but to have a serious element of hardness.

I've noticed  parents complain about the physicality allowed until their kids get a certain age. At some point we have seen enough battles and enough injuries to our kids or their friends that we accept the sport has significant physical risks, and these are risks these warrior chicks take on because they love it. Focus shifts from parents blaming refs to  just hoping / praying for the safety of all participants. Refs can't reduce the physicality in the game. That has to come from our soccer culture...i.e coaches, admins, assignors, parents, players, etc. All refs can do is call fouls. The game is not rough because of refs.

Another great post...
soccersounder
soccersounder
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 411
Points : 4303
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Here

Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by 10sDad 15/04/16, 08:55 am

Father of the Wall wrote:Ok, I will bite.  10sDad, since "NTX refs are a joke" I guess you will be first in line at the next referee class that is available.  I am assuming you would like to use your expert insight that you gathered sitting in your folding chair on the sideline to help drastically improve the NTX Ref situation.  My daughter is a ref and a D1 select player.  She sees it from all sides.  When she plays, she does not always agree on the refs calls but she is respectful of their position.  When she refs, parents rarely agree with any call she makes and there is very little respect given.  It is really a no win situation for any ref that is involved in any game.  I am not saying that refs do not have bad games or miss calls.  Its going to happen. Unless you are in the same position on the field as the Ref you can't tell what they see.  Did the player flop?  Was the ref's view obstructed by several of the 22 bodies that are on the field between him and the alleged foul? Was the reason the player got knocked down just simply physics?  Two players collide and the one with the most mass won?  Normally, these guys ref because they love the game of soccer.  Believe me it is not because of the paycheck.  I suggest everyone take the ref class.  When I helped my daughter study to become a ref it really provided insight and actually taught me the real rules of the game.  Not the Soccer Mom or Soccer dad opinion of what the rules should be.  I cant tell you how many select games I sit and listen to parents yell "hand ball" at the ref just because they saw the ball hit the hand or "off sides" when a player is all the way across the field, not involved in the play?  How can a parent complain about a missed off side call from their chair clear on the opposite end of the field? If you feel so upset about the refs calls then don't cry about it on a message board. Man up and get involved. Become a ref.  Walk a mile in their shoes.  Make a difference.
Ok...I will bite back. Twisted Evil
Look...you don't want an out of shape semi-centurian with bad knees out there trying to keep up with the game. That said, it doesn't mean I don't understand the laws of the game or that I am inexperienced or biased in my evaluation of the NTX referees. I actually take the time to explain to a parent here and there on "my" sideline why an offside call was made or not made, as I have researched the rule and there are so many complexities to it. I have had children in the NTX system and beyond since the early 90s, and I am on my last one until grandkids. I've seen my share of refs, not only here, but nationwide and international, from rec to FIFA. So when I say that many NTX refs are terrible at controlling the game, I have a basis for my assertion.

When I go to a restaurant, I know when I get bad service, but I'm not about to leave my current career to take up being a server. How do I know I received bad service? Because I have seen great service, and I have seen poor service...just like I have seen great referees and poor referees. And yes, I know about "offside" instead of "offsides" and I know about "handling" vs. "handball". I get it wrong on purpose, cuz for some reason, the refs most likely to have an ego problem get real irritated when you say "hand-ball" instead of "hand-ling"...if they were as technical and picky with their reffing, and spent less time listening to the parent sideline for somebody "offending them" and more time paying attention to the 22 players on the field.....well.....

Like most posts have eluded to, a referee may not be able to stop a hit from occurring, but they can "control" their game. When they set the tone properly, the players just know not to play overly physical because they will be called on it - and they dial it back a notch. If a referee does not set the tone properly, and lets this and that go, the players start seeking revenge. (sidelines too - aka "don't let him/her push you like that", "if they are going to push, you push back", etc.)

There is a distinct difference between a physical game and a chippy/violent game. Physical games are akin to the sport and not only allowed but encouraged. Chippy and violent behavior occurs most often when an initial cheap shot is not punished by the referee and the players feel the need for "justice". Just like when the jerk comes all the way up in the exit only lane during rush hour and expects to cut in front of YOU...you pretty much attach yourself to the bumper of the car in front of you, don't you? It's natural. Referees need to be the cop sitting at the end of that exit only lane so the jerk sees him and decides today is not the day to cross the solid white line, and merges when he is supposed to. All they have to do is set the expectation that you will be punished for overly physical or violent/chippy play, and they won't do it for fear of being caught and punished.
10sDad
10sDad
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 448
Points : 4248
Join date : 2012-07-30

Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by CatchyUserName 15/04/16, 09:36 am

10sDad wrote:
Father of the Wall wrote:Ok, I will bite.  10sDad, since "NTX refs are a joke" I guess you will be first in line at the next referee class that is available.  I am assuming you would like to use your expert insight that you gathered sitting in your folding chair on the sideline to help drastically improve the NTX Ref situation.  My daughter is a ref and a D1 select player.  She sees it from all sides.  When she plays, she does not always agree on the refs calls but she is respectful of their position.  When she refs, parents rarely agree with any call she makes and there is very little respect given.  It is really a no win situation for any ref that is involved in any game.  I am not saying that refs do not have bad games or miss calls.  Its going to happen. Unless you are in the same position on the field as the Ref you can't tell what they see.  Did the player flop?  Was the ref's view obstructed by several of the 22 bodies that are on the field between him and the alleged foul? Was the reason the player got knocked down just simply physics?  Two players collide and the one with the most mass won?  Normally, these guys ref because they love the game of soccer.  Believe me it is not because of the paycheck.  I suggest everyone take the ref class.  When I helped my daughter study to become a ref it really provided insight and actually taught me the real rules of the game.  Not the Soccer Mom or Soccer dad opinion of what the rules should be.  I cant tell you how many select games I sit and listen to parents yell "hand ball" at the ref just because they saw the ball hit the hand or "off sides" when a player is all the way across the field, not involved in the play?  How can a parent complain about a missed off side call from their chair clear on the opposite end of the field? If you feel so upset about the refs calls then don't cry about it on a message board. Man up and get involved. Become a ref.  Walk a mile in their shoes.  Make a difference.
Ok...I will bite back.  Twisted Evil
Look...you don't want an out of shape semi-centurian with bad knees out there trying to keep up with the game.  That said, it doesn't mean I don't understand the laws of the game or that I am inexperienced or biased in my evaluation of the NTX referees.  I actually take the time to explain to a parent here and there on "my" sideline why an offside call was made or not made, as I have researched the rule and there are so many complexities to it.  I have had children in the NTX system and beyond since the early 90s, and I am on my last one until grandkids.  I've seen my share of refs, not only here, but nationwide and international, from rec to FIFA.  So when I say that many NTX refs are terrible at controlling the game, I have a basis for my assertion.  

When I go to a restaurant, I know when I get bad service, but I'm not about to leave my current career to take up being a server.  How do I know I received bad service?  Because I have seen great service, and I have seen poor service...just like I have seen great referees and poor referees.  And yes, I know about "offside" instead of "offsides" and I know about "handling" vs. "handball".  I get it wrong on purpose, cuz for some reason, the refs most likely to have an ego problem get real irritated when you say "hand-ball" instead of "hand-ling"...if they were as technical and picky with their reffing, and spent less time listening to the parent sideline for somebody "offending them" and more time paying attention to the 22 players on the field.....well.....

Like most posts have eluded to, a referee may not be able to stop a hit from occurring, but they can "control" their game.  When they set the tone properly, the players just know not to play overly physical because they will be called on it - and they dial it back a notch.  If a referee does not set the tone properly, and lets this and that go, the players start seeking revenge.  (sidelines too - aka "don't let him/her push you like that", "if they are going to push, you push back", etc.)

There is a distinct difference between a physical game and a chippy/violent game.  Physical games are akin to the sport and not only allowed but encouraged.  Chippy and violent behavior occurs most often when an initial cheap shot is not punished by the referee and the players feel the need for "justice".  Just like when the jerk comes all the way up in the exit only lane during rush hour and expects to cut in front of YOU...you pretty much attach yourself to the bumper of the car in front of you, don't you?  It's natural.  Referees need to be the cop sitting at the end of that exit only lane so the jerk sees him and decides today is not the day to cross the solid white line, and merges when he is supposed to.  All they have to do is set the expectation that you will be punished for overly physical or violent/chippy play, and they won't do it for fear of being caught and punished.
10sDad, perfectly put and I could not agree more with what you said.

CatchyUserName
TxSoccer Poster
TxSoccer Poster

Posts : 25
Points : 2604
Join date : 2015-11-08

Back to top Go down

gotta love it.... - Page 2 Empty Re: gotta love it....

Post by twotone 17/04/16, 11:08 pm

Question: could the players make a conscious decision to respect the other players on the field and play the game fairly? I mean, that seems the most logical thing to do. Playing hard & fair doesn't really need to have a referee running around blowing a stinking whistle. Playing hard & foul does. But it seems to me that the players themselves have total control over that (barring physical limitations and just plain accidental off balance fouls).

IMO, that teeny little whistle doesn't do much when a player has decided he/she is going to injure an opponent. and that little piece of red plastic doesn't make a broken ankle get any less broken after a player has chosen to make an ankle-breaking (*sic "physical") tackle.

count me in the group that says ALL involved in the game have a responsibility to protect each other.

twotone
TxSoccer Postmaster
TxSoccer Postmaster

Posts : 153
Points : 5016
Join date : 2009-08-01

Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum