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ECNL swings back at DA
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
Zizou- TxSoccer Spammer
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
As for the mens national team being full of international or DA players their record speaks for itself, pretty pathetic, even tiny Costa Rica handed it to them. With the US resources, population, and the players salary's the mens team is not even good entertainment. Viewership is down why, because talent isn't there. So where did DA step it up?
TulsaFootballDad- TxSoccer Postmaster
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
TulsaFootballDad wrote:Go99, it's great to wish for things (Christmas, done and dusted) but OFC has never been offered an ECNL spot since ECNL inception 7-8 years ago so why would GDA offer them a spot now. OFC has some quality teams especially on the boys side in Oklahoma but obviously are lacking in areas of expertise that are required to be offered a place. I know it chaps the hide of many OFC parents and alum but it is what it is TSCH is the dominant club in Oklahoma. We will see how the GDA Frontier League league plays out and make a decision when necessary.
As for the mens national team being full of international or DA players their record speaks for itself, pretty pathetic, even tiny Costa Rica handed it to them. With the US resources, population, and the players salary's the mens team is not even good entertainment. Viewership is down why, because talent isn't there. So where did DA step it up?
I think you're missing the point. The DA has been around for what, 8 years? The players who have gone through the full cycle of DA are only 20 years old. Of course there isn't an impact on the USMNT yet. 20 Year olds, with rare Pulisic-ish exception, don't make the big squad.
That's false logic wondering along the same lines of why, if ECNL is so great, has more than 75% of the US Women's National Team never played ECNL? Well, because ECNL has only been around for less than a decade.
However, there has been a huge impact on the boys U20/U18/U16/etc. youth national teams. Almost every US-based youth national team player is DA-affiliated. Their results and successes can be debated, but there's no doubt that, internationals aside, the DA is producing 90+% of the best players our country has to offer for YNT candidacy. In 5 more years, you'll start to see the DA players blood into the full national team. In 10 years, it will be pretty much all ex-DA players plus the internationally produced US passport holders.
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
TulsaFootballDad- TxSoccer Postmaster
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
TulsaFootballDad wrote:I know we all want to Rah Rah Piss Boom Bah the mens national team but lets try to see without those night vision goggles. The team is piss. Pulasic is the only player worthy of playing on the team. Lets stop their only 20 years old and whatever DA has existed only this many years, other countries field teams in their 20's and do quite well. Hell some of the smaller nations teams are full of youth and play better style and quality. So lets not give excuses, the mens national team has been up and down for the last 50 years. Progress means moving continually upward and I find it ridiculous that people think they are seeing quality.
I guess then, by your logic, ECNL is an utter and complete failure as there was only a single ex-ECNL player (Morgan Brian) on the 2016 Olympic Women disappointments. So then that logic leads to your next conclusion that maybe TSC should drop ECNL, too?
Right?
That's silly. We're a half dozen years away from being able to truly gauge the success (or lack thereof) of the boys DA. Your justification of declining a girl's DA has some fair points (mostly that, with an Oklahoma monopoly, why indeed would the club choose the lesser profits and increased investment required by a DA affiliation when there isn't any immediate downside to sticking with ECNL for the club and it's board members), but your pointing to the boys DA as an utter failure due to the lack of success of a generation of players too old to have partaken in it isn't quite resonating and is fairly disingenuous as an excuse for the decision to decline the DA.
You have better angles of attack to pursue justification that your ECNL-instead-of-DA choice is "truly in the girl's best interest" and wasn't done to simply protect the club's best interest (not that there's anything wrong with that - soccer is a business). However, this angle is a dead end.
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
TulsaFootballDad- TxSoccer Postmaster
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
TulsaFootballDad wrote:...the Asians are coming up with better style, play and results and they have been playing with less resources, population, and started way after the US.
I totally agree with you. And that conclusion is based mostly upon the results of girl's youth national tournaments where we are clearly getting outplayed, not based upon the results of the full USWNT who are still the #1 team in the world.
US Soccer also agrees with both of us and has concluded that the more lassez-faire ECNL model isn't producing the type of talent required to keep pace with the rest of the world. Based on research and best practices, they concluded the DA model would be better than the ECNL one. Given the current limitations (pay-for-play) and landscape of the US, I tend to agree with them that this new DA-centric structure with oversight and mandates indeed will be better than the prior ECNL-centric structure. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. But it's hard to argue that it won't be better.
My girl will never play on the USWNT. She does want to play in a top college, though. If the truly elite girls are in the DA - and given the list of clubs putting their top players in the DA - it looks obvious that they will, then college coaches will follow (just like they do now with ECNL). Thus, if possible, so in all likelihood will my girl.
Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'm fairly convinced that more college coaches would be impressed by her holding her own against the best from Solar/Hawks/Surf/PDA/Slammers/Sting/etc. than they will be impressed by her performances against the best from Challenge/Albion/D'Feeters/Classics Elite/etc.
timmyh- TxSoccer Postmaster
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
That maybe true but when most players stay instate to play I don't think it will make a huge difference. There are almost 1000 scholarships or financial incentives offered a year for D1 D2 and D3. If your DD is good she'll get a ride.
TulsaFootballDad- TxSoccer Postmaster
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
Simple TSC was offered a spot. They declined said spot. Move on to your next best option (OFC or whatever other OK club)
Oh and no argument from me the mens national team sucks but the current crop of national team players are from before the DA. You are just starting to see DA raised players touching the full national team.
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
timmyh wrote:
I totally agree with you. And that conclusion is based mostly upon the results of girl's youth national tournaments where we are clearly getting outplayed, not based upon the results of the full USWNT who are still the #1 team in the world.
US Soccer also agrees with both of us and has concluded that the more lassez-faire ECNL model isn't producing the type of talent required to keep pace with the rest of the world. Based on research and best practices, they concluded the DA model would be better than the ECNL one. Given the current limitations (pay-for-play) and landscape of the US, I tend to agree with them that this new DA-centric structure with oversight and mandates indeed will be better than the prior ECNL-centric structure. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. But it's hard to argue that it won't be better.
My girl will never play on the USWNT. She does want to play in a top college, though. If the truly elite girls are in the DA - and given the list of clubs putting their top players in the DA - it looks obvious that they will, then college coaches will follow (just like they do now with ECNL). Thus, if possible, so in all likelihood will my girl.
Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'm fairly convinced that more college coaches would be impressed by her holding her own against the best from Solar/Hawks/Surf/PDA/Slammers/Sting/etc. than they will be impressed by her performances against the best from Challenge/Albion/D'Feeters/Classics Elite/etc.
I think the majority of parents believe their player will have a spot on a DA team for whatever reason. I guess we will find out in June how things shake out. In other forums they are discussing the DA II, "DA second team" league. There will have to be a plan B for the DA clubs if ECNL drops all the DA members or do they just let their former ECNL players that dont get a DA roster spot leave for ECNL clubs? No need for 5 ECNL clubs in DFW along with 4 DA members right?
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
TulsaFootballDad- TxSoccer Postmaster
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
TulsaFootballDad- TxSoccer Postmaster
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
This will help though. It's not about the club it's about talent and I don't think the DA should ignore the entire state ok OK because TSC declines. Just move on.
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
However thing will change quickly. Some of your top players will come down south to play for a DA clubs. Some will join OFC when OFC is offered the DA spot.
Nobody can kill you but yourself.
TulsaFootballDad wrote:Go99 i have no clue about GDA selection parameters but if they are more demanding than ECNL OFC stands no chance because if OFC could not get ECNL admission in all this time then i don't think GDA is just looking to hand another club admission just because their only selection from the state declined. As a club i think we would have welcomed the competition of another club into ECNL in the state gets kind of lonely when our main competition is 4 hrs away.
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
TulsaFootballDad wrote:...the Asians are coming up with better style, play and results and they have been playing with less resources, population, and started way after the US.
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
Zizou- TxSoccer Spammer
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
TulsaFootballDad- TxSoccer Postmaster
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
Guest- Guest
Re: ECNL swings back at DA
Soccer forums are also widely embracing girls DA.
That said, there are certainly some concerning aspects of girls DA that parents / players need to be ok with (going in and ongoing):
There's the obvious that have been talked about a lot -- 4x practices per week, no HS soccer, long distance travel for some league games (e.g. Dallas to Denver)
There's also the less obvious that hasn't been talked about much (yet) -- significantly reduced playing time due to the rigid structure, specifically:
23 players per team from two age groups, and no returning to game once subbed out. If it mirror boys DA, then 5 subs max (or 7 for u13/14) per game and each player must 'start' 25% of the games
Using the older age groups as an example, that means 7 players won't play at all in every game -- it might be seven different players each game, or might be the same seven 75% of the time, or somewhere in between.
But set that aside and focus on the averages...
Assuming 2 of the 23 are goalies, that leaves 21 field players for 10 positions. So, on average, if playing time is split equally, each of those 21 players will play 48% of games.
We all know that's highly unlikely, as some players will never/rarely be subbed out... let's say 5 of the 21 are in that category, that leaves 16 players for 5 positions, on average that's 31% of games.
How's that going to sit with parents and players, especially considering all 23 players are the top talent in each club and accustomed to playing most / all of games ?
It's certainly easy to see why large market clubs (leadership) are sticking with girls DA...
take NTX, if any one of the four clubs were to drop DA, then they run the risk of losing their top talent to the other three clubs and becoming a second tier club.
Markets dominated by one club don't have that concern (e.g. TSCH, Lonestar).
The large market clubs may all want to drop girls DA, or have major structural changes implemented, but the only way that happens is if they do so together (unlikely).
It's ironic that ECNL touts itself as a 'club led' org, which has appeal to clubs, yet DA comes along with a fairly heavy handed / tops down approach, and the clubs salute.
Is that why parents are saluting ? Are parents in charge of their kids soccer futures, or are parents simply at the mercy of the clubs? and are clubs simply at the mercy of the powers that be running US Soccer?
Other interesting tidbits:
There are only 5 youth national teams that girls DA will directly feed - u14, u15, u17, u18, u20.
Take the u14 and u15 teams, with 71 girls DA u14/15 teams at 23 players per team, that's 1,633 players vying to make two rosters with a combined 40 or so players (of which about 30 actually play)
Make no mistake, girls DA is in place to find the best of the best of the best (sir). Thus why it's likely that each team is going to have maybe 5 players get a lot of playing time, at the expense of the other 18 players.
Additionally, there are about 330 D1 womens soccer programs. at 28 players per team (avg), that's 9,200 players. They probably add 25% per year or about 2,300 per year (i.e. incoming freshman). Girls DA will graduate about 1,100 per year (15 players, 71 clubs)
Even if 100% of girls DA players go to a D1 program, that still leaves another 1,200 players to be sourced from elsewhere. How many of these are full vs partial vs no scholarship varies by school.
gametime7- TxSoccer Lurker
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
gametime7 wrote:Leadership in many top clubs in large markets across the country have accepted girls DA.
Soccer forums are also widely embracing girls DA.
That said, there are certainly some concerning aspects of girls DA that parents / players need to be ok with (going in and ongoing):
There's the obvious that have been talked about a lot -- 4x practices per week, no HS soccer, long distance travel for some league games (e.g. Dallas to Denver)
There's also the less obvious that hasn't been talked about much (yet) -- significantly reduced playing time due to the rigid structure, specifically:
23 players per team from two age groups, and no returning to game once subbed out. If it mirror boys DA, then 5 subs max (or 7 for u13/14) per game and each player must 'start' 25% of the games
Using the older age groups as an example, that means 7 players won't play at all in every game -- it might be seven different players each game, or might be the same seven 75% of the time, or somewhere in between.
But set that aside and focus on the averages...
Assuming 2 of the 23 are goalies, that leaves 21 field players for 10 positions. So, on average, if playing time is split equally, each of those 21 players will play 48% of games.
We all know that's highly unlikely, as some players will never/rarely be subbed out... let's say 5 of the 21 are in that category, that leaves 16 players for 5 positions, on average that's 31% of games.
How's that going to sit with parents and players, especially considering all 23 players are the top talent in each club and accustomed to playing most / all of games ?
It's certainly easy to see why large market clubs (leadership) are sticking with girls DA...
take NTX, if any one of the four clubs were to drop DA, then they run the risk of losing their top talent to the other three clubs and becoming a second tier club.
Markets dominated by one club don't have that concern (e.g. TSCH, Lonestar).
The large market clubs may all want to drop girls DA, or have major structural changes implemented, but the only way that happens is if they do so together (unlikely).
It's ironic that ECNL touts itself as a 'club led' org, which has appeal to clubs, yet DA comes along with a fairly heavy handed / tops down approach, and the clubs salute.
Is that why parents are saluting ? Are parents in charge of their kids soccer futures, or are parents simply at the mercy of the clubs? and are clubs simply at the mercy of the powers that be running US Soccer?
Other interesting tidbits:
There are only 5 youth national teams that girls DA will directly feed - u14, u15, u17, u18, u20.
Take the u14 and u15 teams, with 71 girls DA u14/15 teams at 23 players per team, that's 1,633 players vying to make two rosters with a combined 40 or so players (of which about 30 actually play)
Make no mistake, girls DA is in place to find the best of the best of the best (sir). Thus why it's likely that each team is going to have maybe 5 players get a lot of playing time, at the expense of the other 18 players.
Additionally, there are about 330 D1 womens soccer programs. at 28 players per team (avg), that's 9,200 players. They probably add 25% per year or about 2,300 per year (i.e. incoming freshman). Girls DA will graduate about 1,100 per year (15 players, 71 clubs)
Even if 100% of girls DA players go to a D1 program, that still leaves another 1,200 players to be sourced from elsewhere. How many of these are full vs partial vs no scholarship varies by school.
best post ive read in years! Need to buy this person a beer.
AtThePitch- TxSoccer Author
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
gametime7 wrote:Leadership in many top clubs in large markets across the country have accepted girls DA.
Soccer forums are also widely embracing girls DA.
That said, there are certainly some concerning aspects of girls DA that parents / players need to be ok with (going in and ongoing):
There's the obvious that have been talked about a lot -- 4x practices per week, no HS soccer, long distance travel for some league games (e.g. Dallas to Denver)
There's also the less obvious that hasn't been talked about much (yet) -- significantly reduced playing time due to the rigid structure, specifically:
23 players per team from two age groups, and no returning to game once subbed out. If it mirror boys DA, then 5 subs max (or 7 for u13/14) per game and each player must 'start' 25% of the games
Using the older age groups as an example, that means 7 players won't play at all in every game -- it might be seven different players each game, or might be the same seven 75% of the time, or somewhere in between.
But set that aside and focus on the averages...
Assuming 2 of the 23 are goalies, that leaves 21 field players for 10 positions. So, on average, if playing time is split equally, each of those 21 players will play 48% of games.
We all know that's highly unlikely, as some players will never/rarely be subbed out... let's say 5 of the 21 are in that category, that leaves 16 players for 5 positions, on average that's 31% of games.
How's that going to sit with parents and players, especially considering all 23 players are the top talent in each club and accustomed to playing most / all of games ?
It's certainly easy to see why large market clubs (leadership) are sticking with girls DA...
take NTX, if any one of the four clubs were to drop DA, then they run the risk of losing their top talent to the other three clubs and becoming a second tier club.
Markets dominated by one club don't have that concern (e.g. TSCH, Lonestar).
The large market clubs may all want to drop girls DA, or have major structural changes implemented, but the only way that happens is if they do so together (unlikely).
It's ironic that ECNL touts itself as a 'club led' org, which has appeal to clubs, yet DA comes along with a fairly heavy handed / tops down approach, and the clubs salute.
Is that why parents are saluting ? Are parents in charge of their kids soccer futures, or are parents simply at the mercy of the clubs? and are clubs simply at the mercy of the powers that be running US Soccer?
Other interesting tidbits:
There are only 5 youth national teams that girls DA will directly feed - u14, u15, u17, u18, u20.
Take the u14 and u15 teams, with 71 girls DA u14/15 teams at 23 players per team, that's 1,633 players vying to make two rosters with a combined 40 or so players (of which about 30 actually play)
Make no mistake, girls DA is in place to find the best of the best of the best (sir). Thus why it's likely that each team is going to have maybe 5 players get a lot of playing time, at the expense of the other 18 players.
Additionally, there are about 330 D1 womens soccer programs. at 28 players per team (avg), that's 9,200 players. They probably add 25% per year or about 2,300 per year (i.e. incoming freshman). Girls DA will graduate about 1,100 per year (15 players, 71 clubs)
Even if 100% of girls DA players go to a D1 program, that still leaves another 1,200 players to be sourced from elsewhere. How many of these are full vs partial vs no scholarship varies by school.
I certainly appreciate some digging beyond the surface on the realities of the new DA. The first year looks to be the most difficult with switching to combined age teams. There simply arent as many roster spots available in DA vs ECNL. When the music stops some will be left without a seat. At least currently, the DA clubs appear to be able to offer a spot on an ECNL team. How that is perceived by the player will be anyone's guess.
From researching how boys DA teams are formed, the bulk of the rostered players appear to be the older birth year on the combined age group teams. The younger age boys are rolling off to other teams in some cases. Unless there is a defined mandate to the clubs regarding the number of players per birth year, the clubs still get to load up teams with older birth year players, further changing the number of available roster spots.
Regarding D1 spots. While there are certainly that many programs available overall, in reality it doesnt matter since your player's list probably includes less than 10 schools. If she isnt a fit at those it really is of no consequence whats available in some other state or region. If the local area where the college recruits from offers DA and your player is not participating in DA, that will matter. If the college recruits in a non DA market then obviously it matters less, if at all.
SoccerTexas- TxSoccer Poster
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
AtThePitch wrote:gametime7 wrote:Leadership in many top clubs in large markets across the country have accepted girls DA.
Soccer forums are also widely embracing girls DA.
That said, there are certainly some concerning aspects of girls DA that parents / players need to be ok with (going in and ongoing):
There's the obvious that have been talked about a lot -- 4x practices per week, no HS soccer, long distance travel for some league games (e.g. Dallas to Denver)
There's also the less obvious that hasn't been talked about much (yet) -- significantly reduced playing time due to the rigid structure, specifically:
23 players per team from two age groups, and no returning to game once subbed out. If it mirror boys DA, then 5 subs max (or 7 for u13/14) per game and each player must 'start' 25% of the games
Using the older age groups as an example, that means 7 players won't play at all in every game -- it might be seven different players each game, or might be the same seven 75% of the time, or somewhere in between.
But set that aside and focus on the averages...
Assuming 2 of the 23 are goalies, that leaves 21 field players for 10 positions. So, on average, if playing time is split equally, each of those 21 players will play 48% of games.
We all know that's highly unlikely, as some players will never/rarely be subbed out... let's say 5 of the 21 are in that category, that leaves 16 players for 5 positions, on average that's 31% of games.
How's that going to sit with parents and players, especially considering all 23 players are the top talent in each club and accustomed to playing most / all of games ?
It's certainly easy to see why large market clubs (leadership) are sticking with girls DA...
take NTX, if any one of the four clubs were to drop DA, then they run the risk of losing their top talent to the other three clubs and becoming a second tier club.
Markets dominated by one club don't have that concern (e.g. TSCH, Lonestar).
The large market clubs may all want to drop girls DA, or have major structural changes implemented, but the only way that happens is if they do so together (unlikely).
It's ironic that ECNL touts itself as a 'club led' org, which has appeal to clubs, yet DA comes along with a fairly heavy handed / tops down approach, and the clubs salute.
Is that why parents are saluting ? Are parents in charge of their kids soccer futures, or are parents simply at the mercy of the clubs? and are clubs simply at the mercy of the powers that be running US Soccer?
Other interesting tidbits:
There are only 5 youth national teams that girls DA will directly feed - u14, u15, u17, u18, u20.
Take the u14 and u15 teams, with 71 girls DA u14/15 teams at 23 players per team, that's 1,633 players vying to make two rosters with a combined 40 or so players (of which about 30 actually play)
Make no mistake, girls DA is in place to find the best of the best of the best (sir). Thus why it's likely that each team is going to have maybe 5 players get a lot of playing time, at the expense of the other 18 players.
Additionally, there are about 330 D1 womens soccer programs. at 28 players per team (avg), that's 9,200 players. They probably add 25% per year or about 2,300 per year (i.e. incoming freshman). Girls DA will graduate about 1,100 per year (15 players, 71 clubs)
Even if 100% of girls DA players go to a D1 program, that still leaves another 1,200 players to be sourced from elsewhere. How many of these are full vs partial vs no scholarship varies by school.
best post ive read in years! Need to buy this person a beer.
GT7 just blew so many minds with his post. Good job bro.
TatonkaBurger- TxSoccer Addict
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
gametime7 wrote:Leadership in many top clubs in large markets across the country have accepted girls DA.
Soccer forums are also widely embracing girls DA.
That said, there are certainly some concerning aspects of girls DA that parents / players need to be ok with (going in and ongoing):
There's also the less obvious that hasn't been talked about much (yet) -- significantly reduced playing time due to the rigid structure, specifically:
23 players per team from two age groups, and no returning to game once subbed out. If it mirror boys DA, then 5 subs max (or 7 for u13/14) per game and each player must 'start' 25% of the games
Using the older age groups as an example, that means 7 players won't play at all in every game -- it might be seven different players each game, or might be the same seven 75% of the time, or somewhere in between.
But set that aside and focus on the averages...
Assuming 2 of the 23 are goalies, that leaves 21 field players for 10 positions. So, on average, if playing time is split equally, each of those 21 players will play 48% of games.
We all know that's highly unlikely, as some players will never/rarely be subbed out... let's say 5 of the 21 are in that category, that leaves 16 players for 5 positions, on average that's 31% of games.
How's that going to sit with parents and players, especially considering all 23 players are the top talent in each club and accustomed to playing most / all of games ?
My understanding is that most boys DA teams carry 18-20 in order to ensure players get enough playing time. I assumed your scenario above is why. I also assume very few current girls DA teams will carry 23 players, or do you guys think they will cram as many kids as possible onto the rosters to make a little extra cash?
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
Regarding younger players in a dual age group, they keep the majority of younger kids in a Pre-Academy league. For example, merged age groups of 15/16's, the 15's would play PA until the following year where they are 16's. Clubs aren't in the business of losing players that they will have to count on for next year.
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Re: ECNL swings back at DA
The difference with DA, is they mandate kids get a percentage of starting time. So if you are 17-20 you know you will get four days a week training opportunity to challenge for a spot, and a 1 in 4 start ratio. That is extremely more significant.
Last edited by tpitty on 05/01/17, 02:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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