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Post by Zizou 04/01/17, 11:13 am

How long did it take ECNL to impact things here locally? My estimate was two years and look at all the change during ECNL short existence.

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Post by TulsaFootballDad 04/01/17, 12:45 pm

Go99, it's great to wish for things (Christmas, done and dusted) but OFC has never been offered an ECNL spot since ECNL inception 7-8 years ago so why would GDA offer them a spot now. OFC has some quality teams especially on the boys side in Oklahoma but obviously are lacking in areas of expertise that are required to be offered a place. I know it chaps the hide of many OFC parents and alum but it is what it is TSCH is the dominant club in Oklahoma. We will see how the GDA Frontier League league plays out and make a decision when necessary.
As for the mens national team being full of international or DA players their record speaks for itself, pretty pathetic, even tiny Costa Rica handed it to them. With the US resources, population, and the players salary's the mens team is not even good entertainment. Viewership is down why, because talent isn't there. So where did DA step it up?
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Post by timmyh 04/01/17, 12:52 pm

TulsaFootballDad wrote:Go99, it's great to wish for things (Christmas, done and dusted) but OFC has never been offered an ECNL spot since ECNL inception 7-8 years ago so why would GDA offer them a spot now. OFC has some quality teams especially on the boys side in Oklahoma but obviously are lacking in areas of expertise that are required to be offered a place. I know it chaps the hide of many OFC parents and alum but it is what it is TSCH is the dominant club in Oklahoma. We will see how the GDA Frontier League league plays out and make a decision when necessary.
As for the mens national team being full of international or DA players their record speaks for itself, pretty pathetic, even tiny Costa Rica handed it to them. With the US resources, population, and the players salary's the mens team is not even good entertainment. Viewership is down why, because talent isn't there. So where did DA step it up?

I think you're missing the point. The DA has been around for what, 8 years? The players who have gone through the full cycle of DA are only 20 years old. Of course there isn't an impact on the USMNT yet. 20 Year olds, with rare Pulisic-ish exception, don't make the big squad.

That's false logic wondering along the same lines of why, if ECNL is so great, has more than 75% of the US Women's National Team never played ECNL? Well, because ECNL has only been around for less than a decade.

However, there has been a huge impact on the boys U20/U18/U16/etc. youth national teams. Almost every US-based youth national team player is DA-affiliated. Their results and successes can be debated, but there's no doubt that, internationals aside, the DA is producing 90+% of the best players our country has to offer for YNT candidacy. In 5 more years, you'll start to see the DA players blood into the full national team. In 10 years, it will be pretty much all ex-DA players plus the internationally produced US passport holders.

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Post by TulsaFootballDad 04/01/17, 01:04 pm

I know we all want to Rah Rah Piss Boom Bah the mens national team but lets try to see without those night vision goggles. The team is piss. Pulasic is the only player worthy of playing on the team. Lets stop their only 20 years old and whatever DA has existed only this many years, other countries field teams in their 20's and do quite well. Hell some of the smaller nations teams are full of youth and play better style and quality. So lets not give excuses, the mens national team has been up and down for the last 50 years. Progress means moving continually upward and I find it ridiculous that people think they are seeing quality.
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Post by timmyh 04/01/17, 01:13 pm

TulsaFootballDad wrote:I know we all want to Rah Rah Piss Boom Bah the mens national team but lets try to see without those night vision goggles. The team is piss. Pulasic is the only player worthy of playing on the team. Lets stop their only 20 years old and whatever DA has existed only this many years, other countries field teams in their 20's and do quite well. Hell some of the smaller nations teams are full of youth and play better style and quality. So lets not give excuses, the mens national team has been up and down for the last 50 years. Progress means moving continually upward and I find it ridiculous that people think they are seeing quality.

I guess then, by your logic, ECNL is an utter and complete failure as there was only a single ex-ECNL player (Morgan Brian) on the 2016 Olympic Women disappointments. So then that logic leads to your next conclusion that maybe TSC should drop ECNL, too?
Right?

That's silly. We're a half dozen years away from being able to truly gauge the success (or lack thereof) of the boys DA. Your justification of declining a girl's DA has some fair points (mostly that, with an Oklahoma monopoly, why indeed would the club choose the lesser profits and increased investment required by a DA affiliation when there isn't any immediate downside to sticking with ECNL for the club and it's board members), but your pointing to the boys DA as an utter failure due to the lack of success of a generation of players too old to have partaken in it isn't quite resonating and is fairly disingenuous as an excuse for the decision to decline the DA.

You have better angles of attack to pursue justification that your ECNL-instead-of-DA choice is "truly in the girl's best interest" and wasn't done to simply protect the club's best interest (not that there's anything wrong with that - soccer is a business). However, this angle is a dead end.

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Post by TulsaFootballDad 04/01/17, 01:35 pm

DA is unknown, most talent for the mens teams came from overseas families in the military. Play better quality get better. Development in the US is still stuck in a rut. I could care less about which league does what for the national team. I have stated a quality education is what we are looking for. But when you want to delay accepting responsability for the national team because DA did not exist until a decade ago then what was the development previously. We can all wait and see if DA produces a national team that can compete against the best in Europe, Afica and South america but last I looked ECNL swings back at DA - Page 10 Img_3710the Asians are coming up with better style, play and results and they have been playing with less resources, population, and started way after the US.
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Post by timmyh 04/01/17, 01:52 pm

TulsaFootballDad wrote:...the Asians are coming up with better style, play and results and they have been playing with less resources, population, and started way after the US.

I totally agree with you. And that conclusion is based mostly upon the results of girl's youth national tournaments where we are clearly getting outplayed, not based upon the results of the full USWNT who are still the #1 team in the world.

US Soccer also agrees with both of us and has concluded that the more lassez-faire ECNL model isn't producing the type of talent required to keep pace with the rest of the world. Based on research and best practices, they concluded the DA model would be better than the ECNL one. Given the current limitations (pay-for-play) and landscape of the US, I tend to agree with them that this new DA-centric structure with oversight and mandates indeed will be better than the prior ECNL-centric structure. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. But it's hard to argue that it won't be better.

My girl will never play on the USWNT. She does want to play in a top college, though. If the truly elite girls are in the DA - and given the list of clubs putting their top players in the DA - it looks obvious that they will, then college coaches will follow (just like they do now with ECNL). Thus, if possible, so in all likelihood will my girl.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'm fairly convinced that more college coaches would be impressed by her holding her own against the best from Solar/Hawks/Surf/PDA/Slammers/Sting/etc. than they will be impressed by her performances against the best from Challenge/Albion/D'Feeters/Classics Elite/etc.

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Post by TulsaFootballDad 04/01/17, 02:06 pm

B
That maybe true but when most players stay instate to play I don't think it will make a huge difference. There are almost 1000 scholarships or financial incentives offered a year for D1 D2 and D3. If your DD is good she'll get a ride.ECNL swings back at DA - Page 10 Img_3710
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Post by go99 04/01/17, 02:19 pm

okay you can't have it both ways. TSC will decline the DA but also TSC is the only club deserving of the DA spot. If TSC declines (yes they are the dominant club) then the DA should just move on to the next club and build from there. OFC is more than capable of building a solid DA program that would allow the DA to get talent from Oklahoma into its loop instead of leaving out the entire state of Oklahoma. What should have been made clear to TSC is the DA is offering you first choice on the OK spot.

Simple TSC was offered a spot. They declined said spot. Move on to your next best option (OFC or whatever other OK club)

Oh and no argument from me the mens national team sucks but the current crop of national team players are from before the DA. You are just starting to see DA raised players touching the full national team.
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Post by SoccerTexas 04/01/17, 02:21 pm

timmyh wrote:

I totally agree with you.  And that conclusion is based mostly upon the results of girl's youth national tournaments where we are clearly getting outplayed, not based upon the results of the full USWNT who are still the #1 team in the world.  

US Soccer also agrees with both of us and has concluded that the more lassez-faire ECNL model isn't producing the type of talent required to keep pace with the rest of the world.  Based on research and best practices, they concluded the DA model would be better than the ECNL one.  Given the current limitations (pay-for-play) and landscape of the US, I tend to agree with them that this new DA-centric structure with oversight and mandates indeed will be better than the prior ECNL-centric structure.  Is it perfect?  Not by a long shot.  But it's hard to argue that it won't be better.

My girl will never play on the USWNT.  She does want to play in a top college, though. If the truly elite girls are in the DA - and given the list of clubs putting their top players in the DA - it looks obvious that they will, then college coaches will follow (just like they do now with ECNL).  Thus, if possible, so in all likelihood will my girl.  

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'm fairly convinced that more college coaches would be impressed by her holding her own against the best from Solar/Hawks/Surf/PDA/Slammers/Sting/etc. than they will be impressed by her performances against the best from Challenge/Albion/D'Feeters/Classics Elite/etc.  

I think the majority of parents believe their player will have a spot on a DA team for whatever reason.  I guess we will find out in June how things shake out.  In other forums they are discussing the DA II, "DA second team" league.  There will have to be a plan B for the DA clubs if ECNL drops all the DA members or do they just let their former ECNL players that dont get a DA roster spot leave for ECNL clubs?  No need for 5 ECNL clubs in DFW along with 4 DA members right?

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Post by TulsaFootballDad 04/01/17, 02:34 pm

Soccer Texas couldn't agree more seems to water down the market but hey the clubs can make a boatload of $$.  If that starts to happen then TSCH will drop ECNL and play DA. The problem we come into as a club is charging our non DA players extra fees to pay for a fully funded GDA. Also now with the inclusion of Boys ECNL it throws a wrench into the works.
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Post by TulsaFootballDad 04/01/17, 02:39 pm

Go99 i have no clue about GDA selection parameters but if they are more demanding than ECNL OFC stands no chance because if OFC could not get ECNL admission in all this time then i don't think GDA is just looking to hand another club admission just because their only selection from the state declined. As a club i think we would have welcomed the competition of another club into ECNL in the state gets kind of lonely when our main competition is 4 hrs away.
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Post by go99 04/01/17, 02:53 pm

The ECNL parameters are not demanding. It is about exclusivity and reputation not about your ability to develop soccer. OFC has enough infrastructure and the rest can be brought in. Besides if TSC doesn't want the spot why should they care if someone else gets it.

This will help though. It's not about the club it's about talent and I don't think the DA should ignore the entire state ok OK because TSC declines. Just move on.
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Post by PowerKick 04/01/17, 02:54 pm

You guys are too complacent because you have a small dominated market right now.

However thing will change quickly. Some of your top players will come down south to play for a DA clubs. Some will join OFC when OFC is offered the DA spot.

Nobody can kill you but yourself.

TulsaFootballDad wrote:Go99 i have no clue about GDA selection parameters but if they are more demanding than ECNL OFC stands no chance because if OFC could not get ECNL admission in all this time then i don't think GDA is just looking to hand another club admission just because their only selection from the state declined. As a club i think we would have welcomed the competition of another club into ECNL in the state gets kind of lonely when our main competition is 4 hrs away.

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Post by PowerKick 04/01/17, 02:55 pm

This is so true that we have to change our style soon.

TulsaFootballDad wrote:...the Asians are coming up with better style, play and results and they have been playing with less resources, population, and started way after the US.

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Post by TulsaFootballDad 04/01/17, 05:22 pm

Go99 the DA has every right to make their decision on which teams they allow in just as ECNL does, i doubt they care what our feelings are on the matter. TSCH declined for the present but I doubt that means DA is under the impression of lets just take someone else because of it.  If DA have standards to meet and OFC had done so they would have recieved the bid offered instead of TSCH. What we say does not change the fact that TSCH in OK were the only ones offered currently a spot. As far as ECNL its a proven league and should it diminsh due to DA we shall find out over the next few years. There are advantages and disadvantages to both leagues.
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Post by Zizou 05/01/17, 08:41 am

I don't believe you will need time to determine changes in level of play that will occur in ECNL. My opinion, I thought your club was improving tremendously playing against the elites in the region and nationally. Yeah their are hurdles to overcome entering DA , but why would you take the opportunity of DA from your top players in your club? Please don't say Money!

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Post by TulsaFootballDad 05/01/17, 09:53 am

Zizou how could one not talk about costs asociated with GDA. TSCH was not founded by millionaires like some Dallas and Houston clubs who wanted a club for their DD's to play and do what they wished. We are an amalgam of clubs. We don't have the population or even the same finances of MLS Academies. They can self fund or charge the remaining girls an extra dime or two and fully fund their programs. TSC does not have the same numbers of players in our pool and adding those dimes each month to each of our girls may change their ability to play and that is what a Club should be about. Personally I have no problem with paying for my DD to play GDA and travel but I am lucky to be able to do so. I couldn't honestly say that about the rest of the parents and their situations as they are not mine. I think the costs and travel were an unknown when TSC declined. On the boys side of DA i know when I was out at Surf the first few years were very expensive and it took about 3-4 years for the costs to decline. I know there are plenty of parents that can pay for their DD's to play but are these the ones of the caliber that DA are looking for and is it the way that a team should be selected. If we could have fully funded our program at the present time and had recieved the boys DA as well I think TSCH would have joined right out of the bat. I think the next few years will be interesting and as my DD is still not at the age for full DA i can wait to see. At that point I will make a decision of what is in the best interest of my DD not the club but I can respect their decision and hope that with time the cost of GDA and the ability of the club will have advanced to add the GDA program. In the meantime we keep getting better and progressing which is all we can do. Some of our older girls that are at the age bracket to play full GDA will in all likelyhood come down to Dallas and join but that is a whole another discussion.
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Post by Guest 05/01/17, 09:55 am

Could it be genius move by powers that be? "Watering down", can be an upside. The way the system is now, elite teams, with very much exclusivity,, with performance based on results. I have witnessed ecnl games where girls as good as starters see half the playing time. Clubs are pretty much (debatable) forced to do this for results. Those bench players do not reach potential. It is asinine at the least to say you can pick who will be the "stud" in the end at 13-14 years old. In this new system, more will be exposed to a higher level. Hopefully the girls da will not be as judged on results as ecnl has been. Hopefully the powers that be will get to put eyes on more talent. Instead of the same ones getting chosen over and over, when there were others that improved more ,later. The biggest flaw in the national teams is they seem to be stuck with who they have chosen. Might be the most skilled, fastest, etc. They may be equivalent with someone they never saw. But the one they are stuck with cannot exist, thrive, on a team of 23 for whatever reason. By allowing ecnl to have high school sports, this keeps one league from drawing all of the talent. Allows more to be developed for multiple reasons. The biggest problem faced with this system is what it has always been in my opinion, lack of elite coaches. I did not agree with da in the beginning. I do not know now. Maybe

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Post by gametime7 05/01/17, 12:34 pm

Leadership in many top clubs in large markets across the country have accepted girls DA.  
Soccer forums are also widely embracing girls DA.
That said, there are certainly some concerning aspects of girls DA that parents / players need to be ok with (going in and ongoing):

There's the obvious that have been talked about a lot --  4x practices per week, no HS soccer, long distance travel for some league games (e.g. Dallas to Denver)

There's also the less obvious that hasn't been talked about much (yet) -- significantly reduced playing time due to the rigid structure, specifically:
23 players per team from two age groups, and no returning to game once subbed out.  If it mirror boys DA, then 5 subs max (or 7 for u13/14) per game and each player must 'start' 25% of the games

Using the older age groups as an example, that means 7 players won't play at all in every game -- it might be seven different players each game, or might be the same seven 75% of the time, or somewhere in between.

But set that aside and focus on the averages...  
Assuming 2 of the 23 are goalies, that leaves 21 field players for 10 positions. So, on average, if playing time is split equally, each of those 21 players will play 48% of games.
We all know that's highly unlikely, as some players will never/rarely be subbed out... let's say 5 of the 21 are in that category, that leaves 16 players for 5 positions, on average that's 31% of games.
How's that going to sit with parents and players, especially considering all 23 players are the top talent in each club and accustomed to playing most / all of games ?

It's certainly easy to see why large market clubs (leadership) are sticking with girls DA...
take NTX, if any one of the four clubs were to drop DA, then they run the risk of losing their top talent to the other three clubs and becoming a second tier club.
Markets dominated by one club don't have that concern (e.g. TSCH, Lonestar).
The large market clubs may all want to drop girls DA, or have major structural changes implemented, but the only way that happens is if they do so together (unlikely).  
It's ironic that ECNL touts itself as a 'club led' org, which has appeal to clubs, yet DA comes along with a fairly heavy handed / tops down approach, and the clubs salute.  
Is that why parents are saluting ?  Are parents in charge of their kids soccer futures, or are parents simply at the mercy of the clubs? and are clubs simply at the mercy of the powers that be running US Soccer?

Other interesting tidbits:
There are only 5 youth national teams that girls DA will directly feed - u14, u15, u17, u18, u20.
Take the u14 and u15 teams, with 71 girls DA u14/15 teams at 23 players per team, that's 1,633 players vying to make two rosters with a combined 40 or so players (of which about 30 actually play)
Make no mistake, girls DA is in place to find the best of the best of the best (sir).   Thus why it's likely that each team is going to have maybe 5 players get a lot of playing time, at the expense of the other 18 players.

Additionally, there are about 330 D1 womens soccer programs. at 28 players per team (avg), that's 9,200 players.  They probably add 25% per year or about 2,300 per year (i.e. incoming freshman).  Girls DA will graduate about 1,100 per year (15 players, 71 clubs)
Even if 100% of girls DA players go to a D1 program, that still leaves another 1,200 players to be sourced from elsewhere. How many of these are full vs partial vs no scholarship varies by school.

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Post by AtThePitch 05/01/17, 12:45 pm

gametime7 wrote:Leadership in many top clubs in large markets across the country have accepted girls DA.  
Soccer forums are also widely embracing girls DA.
That said, there are certainly some concerning aspects of girls DA that parents / players need to be ok with (going in and ongoing):

There's the obvious that have been talked about a lot --  4x practices per week, no HS soccer, long distance travel for some league games (e.g. Dallas to Denver)

There's also the less obvious that hasn't been talked about much (yet) -- significantly reduced playing time due to the rigid structure, specifically:
23 players per team from two age groups, and no returning to game once subbed out.  If it mirror boys DA, then 5 subs max (or 7 for u13/14) per game and each player must 'start' 25% of the games

Using the older age groups as an example, that means 7 players won't play at all in every game -- it might be seven different players each game, or might be the same seven 75% of the time, or somewhere in between.

But set that aside and focus on the averages...  
Assuming 2 of the 23 are goalies, that leaves 21 field players for 10 positions. So, on average, if playing time is split equally, each of those 21 players will play 48% of games.
We all know that's highly unlikely, as some players will never/rarely be subbed out... let's say 5 of the 21 are in that category, that leaves 16 players for 5 positions, on average that's 31% of games.
How's that going to sit with parents and players, especially considering all 23 players are the top talent in each club and accustomed to playing most / all of games ?

It's certainly easy to see why large market clubs (leadership) are sticking with girls DA...
take NTX, if any one of the four clubs were to drop DA, then they run the risk of losing their top talent to the other three clubs and becoming a second tier club.
Markets dominated by one club don't have that concern (e.g. TSCH, Lonestar).
The large market clubs may all want to drop girls DA, or have major structural changes implemented, but the only way that happens is if they do so together (unlikely).  
It's ironic that ECNL touts itself as a 'club led' org, which has appeal to clubs, yet DA comes along with a fairly heavy handed / tops down approach, and the clubs salute.  
Is that why parents are saluting ?  Are parents in charge of their kids soccer futures, or are parents simply at the mercy of the clubs? and are clubs simply at the mercy of the powers that be running US Soccer?

Other interesting tidbits:
There are only 5 youth national teams that girls DA will directly feed - u14, u15, u17, u18, u20.
Take the u14 and u15 teams, with 71 girls DA u14/15 teams at 23 players per team, that's 1,633 players vying to make two rosters with a combined 40 or so players (of which about 30 actually play)
Make no mistake, girls DA is in place to find the best of the best of the best (sir).   Thus why it's likely that each team is going to have maybe 5 players get a lot of playing time, at the expense of the other 18 players.

Additionally, there are about 330 D1 womens soccer programs. at 28 players per team (avg), that's 9,200 players.  They probably add 25% per year or about 2,300 per year (i.e. incoming freshman).  Girls DA will graduate about 1,100 per year (15 players, 71 clubs)
Even if 100% of girls DA players go to a D1 program, that still leaves another 1,200 players to be sourced from elsewhere. How many of these are full vs partial vs no scholarship varies by school.

best post ive read in years! Need to buy this person a beer.

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ECNL swings back at DA - Page 10 Empty Re: ECNL swings back at DA

Post by SoccerTexas 05/01/17, 01:16 pm

gametime7 wrote:Leadership in many top clubs in large markets across the country have accepted girls DA.  
Soccer forums are also widely embracing girls DA.
That said, there are certainly some concerning aspects of girls DA that parents / players need to be ok with (going in and ongoing):

There's the obvious that have been talked about a lot --  4x practices per week, no HS soccer, long distance travel for some league games (e.g. Dallas to Denver)

There's also the less obvious that hasn't been talked about much (yet) -- significantly reduced playing time due to the rigid structure, specifically:
23 players per team from two age groups, and no returning to game once subbed out.  If it mirror boys DA, then 5 subs max (or 7 for u13/14) per game and each player must 'start' 25% of the games

Using the older age groups as an example, that means 7 players won't play at all in every game -- it might be seven different players each game, or might be the same seven 75% of the time, or somewhere in between.

But set that aside and focus on the averages...  
Assuming 2 of the 23 are goalies, that leaves 21 field players for 10 positions. So, on average, if playing time is split equally, each of those 21 players will play 48% of games.
We all know that's highly unlikely, as some players will never/rarely be subbed out... let's say 5 of the 21 are in that category, that leaves 16 players for 5 positions, on average that's 31% of games.
How's that going to sit with parents and players, especially considering all 23 players are the top talent in each club and accustomed to playing most / all of games ?

It's certainly easy to see why large market clubs (leadership) are sticking with girls DA...
take NTX, if any one of the four clubs were to drop DA, then they run the risk of losing their top talent to the other three clubs and becoming a second tier club.
Markets dominated by one club don't have that concern (e.g. TSCH, Lonestar).
The large market clubs may all want to drop girls DA, or have major structural changes implemented, but the only way that happens is if they do so together (unlikely).  
It's ironic that ECNL touts itself as a 'club led' org, which has appeal to clubs, yet DA comes along with a fairly heavy handed / tops down approach, and the clubs salute.  
Is that why parents are saluting ?  Are parents in charge of their kids soccer futures, or are parents simply at the mercy of the clubs? and are clubs simply at the mercy of the powers that be running US Soccer?

Other interesting tidbits:
There are only 5 youth national teams that girls DA will directly feed - u14, u15, u17, u18, u20.
Take the u14 and u15 teams, with 71 girls DA u14/15 teams at 23 players per team, that's 1,633 players vying to make two rosters with a combined 40 or so players (of which about 30 actually play)
Make no mistake, girls DA is in place to find the best of the best of the best (sir).   Thus why it's likely that each team is going to have maybe 5 players get a lot of playing time, at the expense of the other 18 players.

Additionally, there are about 330 D1 womens soccer programs. at 28 players per team (avg), that's 9,200 players.  They probably add 25% per year or about 2,300 per year (i.e. incoming freshman).  Girls DA will graduate about 1,100 per year (15 players, 71 clubs)
Even if 100% of girls DA players go to a D1 program, that still leaves another 1,200 players to be sourced from elsewhere. How many of these are full vs partial vs no scholarship varies by school.

I certainly appreciate some digging beyond the surface on the realities of the new DA.  The first year looks to be the most difficult with switching to combined age teams.  There simply arent as many roster spots available in DA vs ECNL.  When the music stops some will be left without a seat.  At least currently, the DA clubs appear to be able to offer a spot on an ECNL team.  How that is perceived by the player will be anyone's guess.  

From researching how boys DA teams are formed, the bulk of the rostered players appear to be the older birth year on the combined age group teams.  The younger age boys are rolling off to other teams in some cases.  Unless there is a defined mandate to the clubs regarding the number of players per birth year, the clubs still get to load up teams with older birth year players, further changing the number of available roster spots.  

Regarding D1 spots.  While there are certainly that many programs available overall, in reality it doesnt matter since your player's list probably includes less than 10 schools.  If she isnt a fit at those it really is of no consequence whats available in some other state or region.  If the local area where the college recruits from offers DA and your player is not participating in DA, that will matter.  If the college recruits in a non DA market then obviously it matters less, if at all.

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Post by TatonkaBurger 05/01/17, 02:11 pm

AtThePitch wrote:
gametime7 wrote:Leadership in many top clubs in large markets across the country have accepted girls DA.  
Soccer forums are also widely embracing girls DA.
That said, there are certainly some concerning aspects of girls DA that parents / players need to be ok with (going in and ongoing):

There's the obvious that have been talked about a lot --  4x practices per week, no HS soccer, long distance travel for some league games (e.g. Dallas to Denver)

There's also the less obvious that hasn't been talked about much (yet) -- significantly reduced playing time due to the rigid structure, specifically:
23 players per team from two age groups, and no returning to game once subbed out.  If it mirror boys DA, then 5 subs max (or 7 for u13/14) per game and each player must 'start' 25% of the games

Using the older age groups as an example, that means 7 players won't play at all in every game -- it might be seven different players each game, or might be the same seven 75% of the time, or somewhere in between.

But set that aside and focus on the averages...  
Assuming 2 of the 23 are goalies, that leaves 21 field players for 10 positions. So, on average, if playing time is split equally, each of those 21 players will play 48% of games.
We all know that's highly unlikely, as some players will never/rarely be subbed out... let's say 5 of the 21 are in that category, that leaves 16 players for 5 positions, on average that's 31% of games.
How's that going to sit with parents and players, especially considering all 23 players are the top talent in each club and accustomed to playing most / all of games ?

It's certainly easy to see why large market clubs (leadership) are sticking with girls DA...
take NTX, if any one of the four clubs were to drop DA, then they run the risk of losing their top talent to the other three clubs and becoming a second tier club.
Markets dominated by one club don't have that concern (e.g. TSCH, Lonestar).
The large market clubs may all want to drop girls DA, or have major structural changes implemented, but the only way that happens is if they do so together (unlikely).  
It's ironic that ECNL touts itself as a 'club led' org, which has appeal to clubs, yet DA comes along with a fairly heavy handed / tops down approach, and the clubs salute.  
Is that why parents are saluting ?  Are parents in charge of their kids soccer futures, or are parents simply at the mercy of the clubs? and are clubs simply at the mercy of the powers that be running US Soccer?

Other interesting tidbits:
There are only 5 youth national teams that girls DA will directly feed - u14, u15, u17, u18, u20.
Take the u14 and u15 teams, with 71 girls DA u14/15 teams at 23 players per team, that's 1,633 players vying to make two rosters with a combined 40 or so players (of which about 30 actually play)
Make no mistake, girls DA is in place to find the best of the best of the best (sir).   Thus why it's likely that each team is going to have maybe 5 players get a lot of playing time, at the expense of the other 18 players.

Additionally, there are about 330 D1 womens soccer programs. at 28 players per team (avg), that's 9,200 players.  They probably add 25% per year or about 2,300 per year (i.e. incoming freshman).  Girls DA will graduate about 1,100 per year (15 players, 71 clubs)
Even if 100% of girls DA players go to a D1 program, that still leaves another 1,200 players to be sourced from elsewhere. How many of these are full vs partial vs no scholarship varies by school.

best post ive read in years! Need to buy this person a beer.


GT7 just blew so many minds with his post.  Good job bro. Twisted Evil

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ECNL swings back at DA - Page 10 Empty Re: ECNL swings back at DA

Post by timmyh 05/01/17, 02:22 pm

gametime7 wrote:Leadership in many top clubs in large markets across the country have accepted girls DA.  
Soccer forums are also widely embracing girls DA.
That said, there are certainly some concerning aspects of girls DA that parents / players need to be ok with (going in and ongoing):

There's also the less obvious that hasn't been talked about much (yet) -- significantly reduced playing time due to the rigid structure, specifically:
23 players per team from two age groups, and no returning to game once subbed out.  If it mirror boys DA, then 5 subs max (or 7 for u13/14) per game and each player must 'start' 25% of the games

Using the older age groups as an example, that means 7 players won't play at all in every game -- it might be seven different players each game, or might be the same seven 75% of the time, or somewhere in between.

But set that aside and focus on the averages...  
Assuming 2 of the 23 are goalies, that leaves 21 field players for 10 positions. So, on average, if playing time is split equally, each of those 21 players will play 48% of games.
We all know that's highly unlikely, as some players will never/rarely be subbed out... let's say 5 of the 21 are in that category, that leaves 16 players for 5 positions, on average that's 31% of games.
How's that going to sit with parents and players, especially considering all 23 players are the top talent in each club and accustomed to playing most / all of games ?


My understanding is that most boys DA teams carry 18-20 in order to ensure players get enough playing time. I assumed your scenario above is why. I also assume very few current girls DA teams will carry 23 players, or do you guys think they will cram as many kids as possible onto the rosters to make a little extra cash?

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Post by tpitty 05/01/17, 02:35 pm

I think 18-20 is about right. At least what I have seen. I'll start checking benches.

Regarding younger players in a dual age group, they keep the majority of younger kids in a Pre-Academy league. For example, merged age groups of 15/16's, the 15's would play PA until the following year where they are 16's. Clubs aren't in the business of losing players that they will have to count on for next year.

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Post by tpitty 05/01/17, 02:45 pm

To address GT7 playing time issues you need to compare. Every bench has kids that get limited to zero minutes in a match from ECNL to Lake Highlands to Plano/Arlington.

The difference with DA, is they mandate kids get a percentage of starting time. So if you are 17-20 you know you will get four days a week training opportunity to challenge for a spot, and a 1 in 4 start ratio. That is extremely more significant.


Last edited by tpitty on 05/01/17, 02:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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