Re: DA, ECNL, LH Solution

by db10 18/05/17, 11:31 am

Big Ern,

So you spent 16 days in May at both FCD and Solar simultaneously? Impressive. May I ask from where are you getting your FCD numbers? As far as I have seen, and heard first hand, the girls currently in LH are being placed in a pool to tryout for those same LH teams. I also have not heard of anyone from the D1 or the D2 club getting an ECNL spot (I may be wrong but I think only a few actually tried out more than a day or so) Hopefully I'm wrong and they did get the call up as it would be great for those girls after such a tough season.

by HomeStretch 18/05/17, 11:31 am

BW...dont know how to quantify impact players from outside looking so wont touch that one...but D1 multi year commits from NTX [not starters....just commits] should be closer to 80 per year. I haven't looked or counted in years, but when I last did this analysis the trends were declining both in total # of commits and quality of commits (avg RPI) compared to my benchmark classes from pre ecnl. Couldve just been those benchmark classes were high water marks...dunno...but 91s for instance had well over 100 commits from NTX.

by db10 18/05/17, 11:33 am

boilerjoe_96 wrote:
db10 wrote:Quick look / observation YNT players from NTX
U15 - 2
U16 - 2
U17 - 2
U18 - 1
U19 - 1
Total = 8 (all Solar and FCD I believe)

Kicks has 1, she was just in Italy w U17s.

Cool, I just went off of the YNT website. Those rosters are basically just the current rosters and don't reflect the pool as far as I know.

by wazup 18/05/17, 11:35 am

BigErn wrote:
wazup wrote:BigErn - "Regardless of where they came from, the girls were given 8 days of opportunity to show the coaches what they can do ... "

abc000 wrote:2 of the 3 DA Clubs had players pre-register including current team and then grouped kids based solely on previous team. At one of the clubs tryouts coaches literallly never observed an entire group of 20+ girls. At least 2 of those 20 should of been grabbed up IF any coach ever bothered to look. Don't know if that happened or not.

One club watched all players and then pulled 1 kid at the first practice and 4-5 at the next practice.... only then were they asked what team currently on. I'm guessing this was NOT FCD.

Why am I not surprised that BigE didn't respond to this post?

"I know of at least 6 from FCD and another 2 from Solar non ECNL teams that were offered an FCD 03 ECNL spot."

You KNOW at least 6 from FCD that were offered an FCD 03 spot? Seriously? Given the fact that FCD didn't have any D1 caliber teams, 6 kids from FCD LHGCL D2, D3 and relegated teams made ECNL?

Either you are full of shit, or maybe this questions whether grouping kids due to their current team is the best approach to identify talent. El Classico, it all comes down to perception and entitlement. I mean, if you are on an ECNL or JDL team (especially at FCD), you must already have established yourself as one of the best, right?

Heck, FCD had arguably the #1 and #2 04 teams in North Texas (well, at least that is what someone had asserted earlier this year). Must not say much about 04 NTX soccer given the #2 team's performance last weekend against an 03 team a hair away from facing re-qualification.

Wazup Wazup --

While nothing in this post, nor the post from abc000 you've referenced, warrants a response, I have a few minutes to waste so I'll retort, reiterate, repeat for your reading pleasure ...

Each kid did in fact have 8 days (Mon-Thur 5/1-5/4, Mon-Thur 5/8-5/11) of opportunity to tryout for the ECNL/DA teams if they so chose to at both FCD and Solar ... those dates/times/locations were published in multiple mediums including on this forum. Some received offers after the first day, and some took advantage of all 8 days before they got an offer.

abc000's take on "one of the club's tryouts" just wasn't credible enough for any of us to respond to. Mentioning that none of the coaches even looked at a group over a 1.5 period is silly. He then second guessed + contradicted himself by writing "Don't know if that happened or not" and "then pulled 1 kid at the first practice and 4-5 at the next practice". And quite conversely to his contention that one of the lower groups wasn't looked at, I witnessed the opposite at both FCD and Solar ... The coaches already new what they had with the top group so rarely watched them at all.

Regarding non ECNL FCD 03 kids that were offered spots on next year's 03 ECNL team ... make that 7 from FCD + the 2 from Solar teams that were offered (1 of those was offered a DA spot). While the initial groups are typically based on where the kids come from, as the day/week goes on, standout kids are identified and moved to other groups to observe. And yes ... I'd say that if you've previously won a spot on an ECNL or JDL team at either FCD, Solar, Texans or Sting, that you've established yourself as worthy of an initial top group in tryout scenarios.

BTW ... I love the 8itch Slap reference -- good stuff Sir.

Well, congratulations to the 7 FCD D2 / D3 / relegated players who made ECNL.

Which means either:

(1) those coaches did an impressive job of developing players on these apparently underperforming (given all that talent) teams - (though 2 dropped like a rock, and one of the coaches isn't with FCD any longer);

(2) these players were not previously given the opportunity to move within the FCD system;

(3) FCD has done a poor job in identifying talent within its LH teams (I mean, imagine if all these players had been on the FCD Red team - maybe they would have at least been competitive);

(4) FCD 03 ECNL is not gonna be all that BigE and FCD expect given that nearly half the team played on D2 or lower teams; or,

(5) FCD did a fantastic job getting the Kool-Aid drinkers to take spots 16-22.

by Big Boy Bentley 18/05/17, 11:36 am

Too many damn teams and greed that's been the problem until that's cleaned up its not going to get any better.

by Big Ern 18/05/17, 11:40 am

db10 wrote:Big Ern,

So you spent 16 days in May at both FCD and Solar simultaneously? Impressive. May I ask from where are you getting your FCD numbers? As far as I have seen, and heard first hand, the girls currently in LH are being placed in a pool to tryout for those same LH teams. I also have not heard of anyone from the D1 or the D2 club getting an ECNL spot (I may be wrong but I think only a few actually tried out more than a day or so) Hopefully I'm wrong and they did get the call up as it would be great for those girls after such a tough season.

FCD 03 numbers from CR (ECNL), MG (DA), and parents of those kids + I train a couple of them.

by Guest 18/05/17, 11:54 am

HomeStretch wrote:BW...dont know how to quantify impact players from outside looking so wont touch that one...but D1 multi year commits from NTX [not starters....just commits] should be closer to 80 per year. I haven't looked or counted in years, but when I last did this analysis the trends were declining both in total # of commits and quality of commits (avg RPI) compared to my benchmark classes from pre ecnl. Couldve just been those benchmark classes were high water marks...dunno...but 91s for instance had well over 100 commits from NTX.

You could probably replace my "impact player at NCAA D1 tournament qualifying school" with "1st or 2nd team All-Conference at an NCAA D1 tournament qualifying school." I think that would fit within some people's definition of the "truly elite" player. My guess is that the # of those from NTX is <10 per class (<40 overall Freshmen-Seniors in any given single season).

Of the 80-100 D1 commits each year, how many those actually end up being multi-year starters at a D1 school when all is said and done? Based on anecdotal evidence, my gut tells me that it's <50%. Maybe my estimate of <25 is a bit on the low side and it's more like 40-50. But... would we consider a player that starts as a Junior and Senior at Sam Houston/UTA/UIW, etc. a "truly elite" player, or just a "very good" player?

by Big Boy Bentley 18/05/17, 11:55 am

Too many teams if we got back to the days of dominance we had alot less greed.

by abc000 18/05/17, 12:00 pm

[quote="BigErn"][quote="wazup"]BigErn - "Regardless of where they came from, the girls were given 8 days of opportunity to show the coaches what they can do ... "

The point is 2 clubs required the player to declare the team currently rostered on before evaluating the player. 1 club did not ask about team affiliation until they observed the player on the field. Nothing more, nothing less... some coaches evaluating talent on the field as primary factor and others evaluating team affiliation first. One can interpret that fact however you choose.

by db10 18/05/17, 12:04 pm

BW...a player starting in college is a very good player. A player stating in college, on the NT, and being looked at as a professional after college is an elite player.

At least that's my opinion.

Elite to me means they can make a living playing the game after college.

by HomeStretch 18/05/17, 12:33 pm

db10 wrote:BW...a player starting in college is a very good player. A player stating in college, on the NT, and being looked at as a professional after college is an elite player.

At least that's my opinion.

Elite to me means they can make a living playing the game after college.

Being looked at as a professional and making a living at womens soccer are two very different things. Majority of womens pro soccer players make peanuts. Many more opportunities to make a living coaching. Not sure it makes any sense to make pro potential with livable wage as the standard for elite player at the youth level..its just a ridiculously small # of people...you're basically talking about the full WNT players with the protected contracts or the small handful of american players getting paid in europe. Besides the fact the money isnt there, there is no reliable way to project pro potential at the ages we're talking about anyway. Not even a player like pugh is a 100% sure thing at that level.

by db10 18/05/17, 12:42 pm

Not saying a 12 year old can't be elite. I'm saying that a senior in college is considered elite if their career continues.

An elite 8 year old make select, and elite select player makes ECNL / DA, an elite ECNL player makes the YNT or gets a scholarship, and an elite college or NT player continues their career.

That's what ELITE means....one of the few. A Benz is a great car, but if there are 10k running around Frisco are they Elite?

by HomeStretch 18/05/17, 01:03 pm

db10 wrote:Not saying a 12 year old can't be elite. I'm saying that a senior in college is considered elite if their career continues.

An elite 8 year old make select, and elite select player makes ECNL / DA, an elite ECNL player makes the YNT or gets a scholarship, and an elite college or NT player continues their career.

That's what ELITE means....one of the few. A Benz is a great car, but if there are 10k running around Frisco are they Elite?

I think the whole exercise of applying the "elite" label to youth players is a big part of the problem. Especially when most the pathways allow parents to buy it. What purpose does it really serve to be considered "elite" at 10 or 11-years-old?

by Big Ern 18/05/17, 01:14 pm

HomeStretch wrote:
Gunner9 wrote:Being the only game in town is exactly why it was in it's prime then. There was no D2 or D3. Clubs did not control byes. Relegation was real. By U15 there was only room for 6 teams per age group. (Recruiting didn't start in 8th grade then)

Consolidation was organic. Had to be since you needed to be 1-2 in the league to get into the top bracket at the best showcases.

LHGCL has been weak since US Club arrived. Despite what we in NTX like to think, there is a finite talent pool.

I think we agree that consolidation of talent is a good thing. Just tossing a little history into the mix to the posters that don't seem to know that LHGCL was legitimately one of the Top 2 leagues in the Nation and regularly put kids into NT programs and Top D1 sides.

Thank You...needed one of the old heads to chime in and help confirm what I surmised from looking at the #s. Old school NTX had many classes with players representing top college sides competing for ncaa championships. Notre Dame, Stanford, UNC, UCLA all at one time had NTX products prominently featured in line up. The record books show NTX youth winning national championships [at recruiting age years...not ulittles]...with regularity...until it abruptly stopped with the 98s...coincidentally 98s were first class with their complete build up in ECNL era. NTX has been a mess for decades is fake news. NTX has been a mess last few years as USSF sat by while US Club and USYS waged war.

Homestretch --

I can certainly respect your opinion, especially since it seems you've been around here a lot longer than I. And I agree that LHGCL was, even very recently, among the most respected and competitive girl's leagues in the nation.

My contention that NTX is a mess isn't quantifiable nor was it an objective thought by any means. It wasn't so much about the production of talented kids at the end of the road, but more about the road itself. Based on what from I've witnessed here, the foundation of the 'mess' here as I see it, is that there are far too many kids playing competitive soccer that really shouldn't be. This leads to the clearly evident dismay of 'how things are done' that exists in what seems to be the majority of parents here ... This very dismay is reinforced every single day on this forum. Also, as I alluded to in my post -- there are too many clubs here with too many negative opinions of their competitors, far too many under qualified coaches, and the governing body over NTX is insistent on pitting competitive programs against recreational programs.

This all leads to constant battling between the clubs over kids, teams and coaches. It leads to far too often 'club jumping' for all parties involved. It leads to sub par, desperate clubs coaches trolling the recreation facilities for the biggest, fastest five year olds. It leads to so many of you that have nothing but negativity to write about.

This is the "mess" I'm referring to.

by soccerjack 18/05/17, 01:30 pm

BigErn wrote:
HomeStretch wrote:
Gunner9 wrote:Being the only game in town is exactly why it was in it's prime then. There was no D2 or D3. Clubs did not control byes. Relegation was real. By U15 there was only room for 6 teams per age group. (Recruiting didn't start in 8th grade then)

Consolidation was organic. Had to be since you needed to be 1-2 in the league to get into the top bracket at the best showcases.

LHGCL has been weak since US Club arrived. Despite what we in NTX like to think, there is a finite talent pool.

I think we agree that consolidation of talent is a good thing. Just tossing a little history into the mix to the posters that don't seem to know that LHGCL was legitimately one of the Top 2 leagues in the Nation and regularly put kids into NT programs and Top D1 sides.

Thank You...needed one of the old heads to chime in and help confirm what I surmised from looking at the #s. Old school NTX had many classes with players representing top college sides competing for ncaa championships. Notre Dame, Stanford, UNC, UCLA all at one time had NTX products prominently featured in line up. The record books show NTX youth winning national championships [at recruiting age years...not ulittles]...with regularity...until it abruptly stopped with the 98s...coincidentally 98s were first class with their complete build up in ECNL era. NTX has been a mess for decades is fake news. NTX has been a mess last few years as USSF sat by while US Club and USYS waged war.

Homestretch --

I can certainly respect your opinion, especially since it seems you've been around here a lot longer than I. And I agree that LHGCL was, even very recently, among the most respected and competitive girl's leagues in the nation.

My contention that NTX is a mess isn't quantifiable nor was it an objective thought by any means. It wasn't so much about the production of talented kids at the end of the road, but more about the road itself. Based on what from I've witnessed here, the foundation of the 'mess' here as I see it, is that there are far too many kids playing competitive soccer that really shouldn't be. This leads to the clearly evident dismay of 'how things are done' that exists in what seems to be the majority of parents here ... This very dismay is reinforced every single day on this forum. Also, as I alluded to in my post -- there are too many clubs here with too many negative opinions of their competitors, far too many under qualified coaches, and the governing body over NTX is insistent on pitting competitive programs against recreational programs.

This all leads to constant battling between the clubs over kids, teams and coaches. It leads to far too often 'club jumping' for all parties involved. It leads to sub par, desperate clubs coaches trolling the recreation facilities for the biggest, fastest five year olds. It leads to so many of you that have nothing but negativity to write about.

This is the "mess" I'm referring to.

Well said ern....but I'm afraid you're still in for another 8itch slap from what's his face.

by HomeStretch 18/05/17, 01:33 pm

BigEm...we will have to agree to disagree. I'm not negative on NTX soccer. It's cut throat and highly competitive, but it's been great for my daughter. We made some mistakes in our choices but its not likely we could've made those mistakes and she ended up OK in a smaller market with fewer great alternatives. I don't agree there are too many clubs nor too many kids playing. I think the choices and passion for the sport are the strength of the area and the reason why teams consolidated from an openly competitive (deep) pool of ntx talent will typically be among the best in the country. Every youth soccer market has warts..many of the same discussions we have here are had all over the country.

by KeeperCommander 18/05/17, 01:43 pm

db10 wrote:Not saying a 12 year old can't be elite. I'm saying that a senior in college is considered elite if their career continues.

An elite 8 year old make select, and elite select player makes ECNL / DA, an elite ECNL player makes the YNT or gets a scholarship, and an elite college or NT player continues their career.

That's what ELITE means....one of the few. A Benz is a great car, but if there are 10k running around Frisco are they Elite?

Please note an 8 year old that makes select. Elite can just be the best of what is currently out there at present time, not just what they may do with their talent later. There might very well be a few "Elite Posters" on this forum but that doesn't mean that they are not drug addicted alcoholics that live with their parents and surf the web all day.

by db10 18/05/17, 02:34 pm

Not sure why I threw an 8 there. However the point is the same.

by db10 18/05/17, 02:35 pm

Too many kids playing competitive soccer, that wouldn't have anything to do with clubs wanting to make as much money as possible?

by wazup 18/05/17, 02:45 pm

db - BigE already noted that FC Dallas is one of the offenders

BigErn wrote:
HomeStretch wrote:
Gunner9 wrote:Being the only game in town is exactly why it was in it's prime then. There was no D2 or D3. Clubs did not control byes. Relegation was real. By U15 there was only room for 6 teams per age group. (Recruiting didn't start in 8th grade then)

Consolidation was organic. Had to be since you needed to be 1-2 in the league to get into the top bracket at the best showcases.

LHGCL has been weak since US Club arrived. Despite what we in NTX like to think, there is a finite talent pool.

I think we agree that consolidation of talent is a good thing. Just tossing a little history into the mix to the posters that don't seem to know that LHGCL was legitimately one of the Top 2 leagues in the Nation and regularly put kids into NT programs and Top D1 sides.

Thank You...needed one of the old heads to chime in and help confirm what I surmised from looking at the #s. Old school NTX had many classes with players representing top college sides competing for ncaa championships. Notre Dame, Stanford, UNC, UCLA all at one time had NTX products prominently featured in line up. The record books show NTX youth winning national championships [at recruiting age years...not ulittles]...with regularity...until it abruptly stopped with the 98s...coincidentally 98s were first class with their complete build up in ECNL era. NTX has been a mess for decades is fake news. NTX has been a mess last few years as USSF sat by while US Club and USYS waged war.

Homestretch --

I can certainly respect your opinion, especially since it seems you've been around here a lot longer than I. And I agree that LHGCL was, even very recently, among the most respected and competitive girl's leagues in the nation.

My contention that NTX is a mess isn't quantifiable nor was it an objective thought by any means. It wasn't so much about the production of talented kids at the end of the road, but more about the road itself. Based on what from I've witnessed here, the foundation of the 'mess' here as I see it, is that there are far too many kids playing competitive soccer that really shouldn't be. This leads to the clearly evident dismay of 'how things are done' that exists in what seems to be the majority of parents here ... This very dismay is reinforced every single day on this forum. Also, as I alluded to in my post -- there are too many clubs here with too many negative opinions of their competitors, far too many under qualified coaches, and the governing body over NTX is insistent on pitting competitive programs against recreational programs.

This all leads to constant battling between the clubs over kids, teams and coaches. It leads to far too often 'club jumping' for all parties involved. It leads to sub par, desperate clubs coaches trolling the recreation facilities for the biggest, fastest five year olds. It leads to so many of you that have nothing but negativity to write about.

This is the "mess" I'm referring to.

prime example - FC Dallas has 8 U13 teams playing in Plano - charging their players the same as DA or ECNL

by Guest 18/05/17, 02:59 pm

wazup wrote:prime example - FC Dallas has 8 U13 teams playing in Plano - charging their players the same as DA or ECNL

That's not FC Dallas' fault...

by KeeperCommander 18/05/17, 03:07 pm

bwgophers wrote:
wazup wrote:prime example - FC Dallas has 8 U13 teams playing in Plano - charging their players the same as DA or ECNL

That's not FC Dallas' fault...

Nope not FCD fault. Great marketing though.

by KeeperCommander 18/05/17, 03:11 pm

Instead of 6 DA teams from 3 clubs I would rather see 2 DA teams from NTX area. If you have a player on the team then the club still is responsible for paying for said player. Clubs are not involved in who is on team. You want consolidated talent? Consolidate it.

by soccermomntx 18/05/17, 03:18 pm

I am confused. I thought that each club had 1 DA team and 1 ECNL team. Are the 05 still having JDL? If so, is that 1 team or 2 teams per club?

by KeeperCommander 18/05/17, 03:21 pm

For now there is 1. Plan will be to have 2 with one of them playing in DA2.

by newbiefornow 18/05/17, 03:28 pm

There aren't enough girls playing competitive soccer. There aren't enough girls playing any sport. If you're investing in your girls athletic development you should take a bow. The "elite" players inspire and motivate the not so elite. There are other models that work but they all pay their coaches and fund their facilities.

This is a tough part of the year. There will be DA teams and the majority of the kids on them will have earned their spots. There will be ECNL teams and some of the kids on those teams will be more talented and "better" players than some of the kids on DA but the majority won't be. There will be LHGCL teams and the kids on those teams will get some good coaching and a competitive game in a league that has meaning. Not every year is the same vintage so there is an ebb and flow.

If you feel your kid didn't get a fair shot at DA or ECNL that's reasonable. The people making the choices are human and have limited resources. There may be a High school route to playing in college but it's really tough and that's not fair. The best thing to do is to get on to your School board and insist they fund Soccer to the same level as Football. If the head football coach gets $100K then the head soccer coach should (not to mention the actual teachers)...the clubs aren't the problem here in my opinion. They're meeting a very positive demand for young women to be great at a sport they love.

Yeah I know - let the unicorns roam - more teams and more clubs with different models aren't free but that's how sport for women will get better. If you feel it's poor value don't spend the money.

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