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Post by CardinalRule 22/08/18, 06:10 pm

DeltaTauChi wrote:
Big Ern wrote:
CardinalRule wrote:I agree 100% with the lack of "IQ" comments.  Too many players on the US Women and Men's national Uxx team look lost on the field when their style of play is neutralized.  They simply can't adapt and adjust their style of play, and many of them are simply out classed from a skill perspective.    

I wish that was the USWNT’s only problem, but I don't think it is.  I think the process of identifying the "top" talent is extremely flawed and riddled with shortcuts, hidden agendas and cronyism.  Just take a look at the USWNT rosters (U15 and up) at any point in time.  It's overloaded with players from a couple states and clubs.  Start with Texas. It’s vastly underrepresented with the exception of two clubs; Solar and FCD clubs.  Some states look suspiciously overrepresented from a population perspective (Virginia, Georgia and Colorado combined have 3-4X number of players on the USWNT roster at each age with about 4 million less people than Texas), and some clubs have a statistically improbable track record of churning out talent.  I can only imagine the challenges of identifying talent in a country as dispersed and populated as the US with limited resources (coaches and $).  I am sure viewing footage of the many thousands of teams in the country and identifying top players would be next to impossible.  DA does nothing to address that problem.  It simply injects a more insular selection and filtering process.  Unfortunately, we are leaving many of our best players sitting at home, because they aren’t playing at the right club and/or in the right state.   If we keep picking the biggest, strongest and fastest from the DA farm system, the replication of the USMNT disaster will be complete.

Cardinal --

Dude ...  cheers

One question though ... Did you feel this way about the ECNL as well, before GDA came about?

I'm just curious as to which players currently at Texans/Sting/D'Feeters/LP/Fever/Spirit/etc Cardinal considers to be better than the Solar & FCD girls currently rep'n NTX on the YNT's?

The next 2 or 3 that I think you could make an argument for also play for, you guessed it, Solar and FCD right now.  

DTC, I'm not going to debate if the girls from Solar or FCD are good players, and I can’t say or prove that a couple top players from Americas FC, SRFC, NTFC or Sparta’s U15 teams are better than the top DA players at Solar/FCD. They will never get a chance to play against each other. I would hope you don’t think all the top players in Dallas are playing DA.

Case in point, did you happen to watch any of the recent women’s U20 World Cup matches? I watched portions of a couple matches. The US team didn't make it to the quarterfinals, and they were outclassed in the matches I saw. The game against Japan was a major contrast. Japan consistently ripped through the US defense. They passed through, not over the US defense under heavy pressure with smaller, slower and less athletic players. The Japanese players had better field vision and far superior ball handling skills under pressure. Nearly every time Japan pressured team USA in the second half, we turned the ball over within one pass. I am confident there are better U20 players in the US that didn’t get invited to represent US in France.

How do we identify all the top players at each age? I don’t think it’s a simple answer, but I think fielding a US National team at U15, 16 or 17 is pointless. Let young girls mature and improve without the delusions of US soccer.

Lefty, from what I saw, the old ODP model was superior for filtering top players. It was “sort of” a blind tryout model, and it was open to all players. Most importantly, it doesn’t Dribble players to choose between club teams and high school sports. ODP may be nearly dead, but it wasn’t all bad.

Big E, I'm not saying it was perfect before. It’s been trending in the wrong direction for at least a decade. I just think we took a step back with DA. The difference is intent. ENCL never intended to be a farm system for the USWNT, and the girls playing ECNL were allowed to compete in tournaments with non-ECNL teams, could play high school soccer and guest play in other leagues.

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Post by BENDMEOVER 22/08/18, 06:22 pm

We have been in the wilderness for too long. Will it take another decade before we realize the truth?

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Post by Guest 22/08/18, 07:03 pm

CardinalRule wrote:
DTC, I'm not going to debate if the girls from Solar or FCD are good players, and I can’t say or prove that a couple top players from Americas FC, SRFC, NTFC or Sparta’s U15 teams are better than the top DA players at Solar/FCD.   They will never get a chance to play against each other.   I would hope you don’t think all the top players in Dallas are playing DA.

Nope. I don't think all of the top players in Dallas are playing DA. But I'm also pretty confident that there aren't any future USWNT "diamonds in the rough" playing for Americas FC, SRFC, NTFC, or Sparta's U15 teams right now.

Specifically, the two Solar '03's that are currently playing 2 years up on the U17 YNT are in a class all of their own for their age, and even look like they may be Mallory Pugh kind of game changers. I'm also pretty sure BFS isn't the term you'd use to describe the '03 Mid. More like FS with High Soccer IQ, but then again, isn't that what we are all pining for?

Identifying the elite players in a soccer hot bed like NTX isn't the problem. The questions are if we are developing the correct attributes in our elite players, using the correct attributes to select the elite of the elite, and if we are overlooking elite talent or potential in areas that are not densely populated, historic soccer hot beds.

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Post by BENDMEOVER 22/08/18, 08:04 pm

Lots of questions and not alot of answers. The next decade will tell the tale.

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Post by HomeStretch 22/08/18, 09:55 pm

OldSoccerSouthD wrote:

I'm assuming you are talking about the Mens team here....There is no WAY they have been prioritizing individual skills over BFS...... outside of Pulisic (sometimes) who else can you trust in the last 2/3 iterations of the USMNT to consistently win a 1v1 situation against a top 15 FIFA ranked national team?
 I'm talking women. The men have their hands full in CONCACAF...

OldSoccerSouthD wrote:
On the women's side I hate to say this, but it is the same thing. The US U20 team this last world cup could run faster and last longer on the field than any of the other teams...but the only way they could dribble 1v1 was by kicking the ball far enough and make up the difference with their speed to complete a successful 1v1 dribble....
They didn't make it out of group so how would you determine this? They regularly dribbled 1v1 into pressure. Against a bad team like Paraguay they looked like world beaters. Against 2 of the best teams in the 2018 u20 - it didn't work.

OldSoccerSouthD wrote:
And Dribbling is not even the main problem here....just wanted to address your comment....
Didn't say dribbling is the problem. I cosigned with others who've said our inability to ID for soccer IQ is the problem. I implied  our YNT teams take individual dribbling as the barometer for technical play.  Touch, vision, movement, creativity, tactical intelligence, etc. are probably harder to tease out because the competition in CONCACAF allows our teams to do well without proficiency in those areas.

OldSoccerSouthD wrote:
The STILL predominance of BFS girls on the National Teams is clear. Just watch the games....I watched every single one of those U20 games....we dominated physically every game....but the soccer IQ, individual skills and COLLECTIVE skills to play a possession oriented finesse based game just wasn't there....
We only physically dominated Paraguay. We didn't physically dominate Japan, certainly not in the midfield where it mattered most. BFS teams of old won 90% of any 50:50...japan looked to be a quicker team overall than US. We did not dominate Spain either until the last 20 minutes when we brought in more athletic players and spain started to tire. Our starting u20 lineup was not any more athletic than Spain's IMO. We agree Spain and Japan were far more organized and skillful in their TEAM tactics. That is not down to US having too many BFS players. Sanchez, Howell, Villacorta, De Melo, Pinto...none could be classed as a BFS player.  

OldSoccerSouthD wrote:
I'll take a team of 11 girls with high soccer IQ, avg physical traits and great individual skills than a BFS team with average to good skills and avg soccer IQ anytime....
You could take them and you would do very well at most levels. Probably could beat the crap out of CONCACAF. When you try to play the best teams in the world you'd get your butt kicked... those teams will have players with the total package.

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Post by thunderlipz 22/08/18, 10:17 pm

I agree 100% with CR, the Cronyism and hidden agendas has reached an all time high. We are also in an era now where coaches value wins over everything. In our current youth pay to play soccer system it breeds the BFS over the smarter more tactically and technically gifted players. The fact is BFS wins youth girls soccer matches more than the latter does right now. Most coaches have the pipe dream that they can teach the technical and tactical part of the game and the reality is they fail miserably at it. We as parents say, we’re winning games so who cares? For this trend to change? I’d have to agree with big ego for the first time ever, it would require a complete culture change and I think we all know that won’t happen. Far to many top level coaches and Doc’s are getting rich for that to happen.

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Post by TxFutbal 23/08/18, 12:43 am

I am not disagreeing with what has been said here. I do have a question though.. Does anyone have an idea as to what a DOC makes at a midsize/big club? I am trying to understand what a rich DOC means to North Texas.

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Post by Guest 23/08/18, 10:08 am

$160,000-$170,000 range. Those #’s come from 990 IRS filings. Some clubs don’t break out individual compensation #’s, but the one’s that did? ^^^^ those are the numbers. Those are big club numbers, smaller clubs are 1/3 - 1/2 of that.

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Post by sprint 23/08/18, 10:34 am

The US Womens Senior National team hasn't lost a game in the last 18 and just won a tournament. They are not struggling and are ranked #1 in the world. It will take a long time for any other country to catch up and if the US does falter at some point it was bound to happen.

Trying to get US women to play tiki taka, possession based skilled soccer is not beneficial. Tiki Taka worked for spain and Barca but most teams and countries can't pull it off. It also can be beat, See Bayern Munich over Barca in Champions League from a few years ago.

The high press, strength and speed strategy has worked for years in Womens' soccer and will continue to work. Will it help if the women get more skilled, yes, but they are plenty skilled now ( Rapino, Heath, Pugh). The U20 women not getting out of the bracket is not the end of the world. As long as the Senior team is dominate, the US is good. That is not changing anytime soon. Predicting another World Cup next year.

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Post by HomeStretch 23/08/18, 10:48 am

We should define BFS so we know we're on the same page. BIG FAST AND STRONG.

Saying a player is BFS means a combination of those three attributes is the PRIMARY weapon said player has in their arsenal.

IMO a skillful, high soccer IQ player, that happens to also be BIG or FAST or STRONG, is not a BFS player.

Horan on full team for example. Big kid. Strong Kid. Not fast at all. Highly technical. No way should she be classed as BFS.

Think Pogba in the men's game. Big, Strong, Slow, world class skill.  Not BFS.

Think Morgan Brian in the woman's game. Small, slow, technical, creative. Great player.

Morgan Brian is the prototype anti-BFS. Japan or Spain, who both play a possession game with smaller stature players, would still crush you if you ran out a team full of Morgan Brians.

Our WNT teams are NOT BFS. Go through all the WNT rosters from full team on down, and you won't need both hands to count the BFS players...maybe a few forwards and a few defenders.

None of the few BFS we do have are impactful as our BFS of yesteryear...i.e. I don't see any Wambachs in any player pool.

An AMERICAN world class team should have a BLEND of player attributes...some BFS, some playmakers, some ball hunters, some enforcers, some magicians.  

Today's youth national teams seem to be focused only on SPEED and individual technical ability. Not SPEED OF THOUGHT, which is what we're starting to see from a few other nations that are developing kids in pro training environments instead of scholastic ones.

Sure politics and coaching relationships matter, but let's not pretend there a bunch of world class tacticians sitting in our high school ECNL/DA or college teams being overlooked.

Our current system is not developing ENOUGH of these thinking, team-centric players.

Our best of the best are annointed at 14 and molded into highly individualistic players who are rarely challenged for their spots in the player pool.

We don't need to clone Japan or Spain. We just need to be better at being ourselves.


Last edited by HomeStretch on 24/08/18, 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Lefty 23/08/18, 12:43 pm

thunderlipz wrote:I agree 100% with CR, the Cronyism and hidden agendas has reached an all time high. We are also in an era now where coaches value wins over everything. In our current youth pay to play soccer system it breeds the BFS over the smarter more tactically and technically gifted players. The fact is BFS wins youth girls soccer matches more than the latter does right now. Most coaches have the pipe dream that they can teach the technical and tactical part of the game and the reality is they fail miserably at it. We as parents say, we’re winning games so who cares? For this trend to change? I’d have to agree with big ego for the first time ever, it would require a complete culture change and I think we all know that won’t happen. Far to many top level coaches and Doc’s are getting rich for that to happen.

Pay to play will always focus on what drives the revenue stream which is usually winning today's game over long term development.

For there to be a long term development focus the financial structure and incentives or the paying customers behavior would have to change dramatically.

Just don't see where there is a realistic revenue stream for soccer in the US to focus primarily on development.

Hope I am wrong.

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Post by TxFutbal 23/08/18, 11:29 pm

I don't necessarily think $150k (took an avg) a year for a DOC salary is living high on the hog and gettin rich. A proprietor of any business has a right to make money. Just because a business is classified as a non profit doesn't mean they are not not allowed to make a profit. All well run non profits make money.

If the DOC is building a good business and providing a quality service that soccer people want to buy and be a part of, that is great. there are a ton of clubs in NTX that fit this description. There will always be some coaches that lurk in a club system that are lazy jerks that just go thru the motion for the paycheck. I could list at least 10 but won't go down that rabbit hole.

There is nothing wrong with a team that wins A LOT and still develops. The teams are out there and are teams that grow organically vs. bringing in the ringers every weekend and everyone knows who those coaches are. Find a team that is getting better every year without bringing the free agents and that is where development is happening.. Pretty simple.

AND.. I will go on record to say Tobin Heath is probably the greatest and most gifted soccer player ever to put on the USWNT jersey. Let the debate begin

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Post by Big Ern 24/08/18, 12:10 am

Great convo Gentlemen.

Cardinal -- Regarding your mention of "intent" ...

Regardless whether or not the ECNL didn't intend to be a feeder for USNTs, they absolutely were (and really still are), weren't they?  

The top league is the top league isn't it?  Whichever it is, that's where the majority of the USNT selections will come from, right?  

How does competing against generally lesser talent in HS or playing down in leagues like LH as a guest player support an argument that things would've been any better off had the GDA not come to fruition?  

And BTW ... Like the ECNL, GDA kids do indeed compete in tourneys vs non GDA comp -- see DIGC and Surf Cup as examples.  Heck ... even happening this weekend out in Ft Worth --

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Post by CardinalRule 24/08/18, 08:33 am

HomeStretch, "Sure politics and coaching relationships matter, but let's not pretend there a bunch of world class tacticians sitting in our high school ECNL/DA or college teams being overlooked."

Take a look at the U20 roster, if it's still up on their website from the World Cup. Three ladies on the team are from the same club in Michigan (Hawks). 3 players from the same cold weather team in Detroit amongst the thousands of top players around the country....what are the odds? Lottery odds. Don't pretend for a moment that soccer at a national level is like the NFL; best of the best.

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Post by TatonkaBurger 24/08/18, 09:06 am

Who said the forum is dead? Great discussion.
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Post by HomeStretch 24/08/18, 10:27 am

CardinalRule wrote:HomeStretch, "Sure politics and coaching relationships matter, but let's not pretend there a bunch of world class tacticians sitting in our high school ECNL/DA or college teams being overlooked."  

Take a look at the U20 roster, if it's still up on their website from the World Cup.  Three ladies on the team are from the same club in Michigan (Hawks).  3 players from the same cold weather team in Detroit amongst the thousands of top players around the country....what are the odds?  Lottery odds.  Don't pretend for a moment that soccer at a national level is like the NFL; best of the best.


Sure...none could deny a few powerhouse clubs leverage coach relationships to place their kids on youth national teams. Colorado's affiliation with heinrichs means their kids get looks. Stars has connected coaches in the northeast.  Looked pretty clear to me once Carr did a stent in Texas we've seen a ton more Texas kids placed in YNT pools...so our region benefits from the same coaching network. The point is there might be another 100 kids at any age group as good as these kids getting called up, but I havent seen much evidence there are 100 kids BETTER. It would be replacing like for like if you swapped in a different clique of connected coaches running the program. Different clubs maybe, same level of player.

 If the problem was only politics we wouldn't see NCAA women's coaches now starting to do the same thing mens ncaa programs have been doing for years...filling teams with international players.

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Post by FroZone 24/08/18, 10:33 am

HomeStretch wrote:

 If the problem was only politics we wouldn't see NCAA women's coaches now starting to do the same thing mens ncaa programs have been doing for years...filling teams with international players.

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Post by OldSoccerSouthD 24/08/18, 03:07 pm

TatonkaBurger wrote:Who said the forum is dead?  Great discussion.

Thank you ... Very Happy

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Post by Pico 24/08/18, 09:27 pm

OldSoccerSouthD wrote:
TatonkaBurger wrote:Who said the forum is dead?  Great discussion.

Thank you ...  Very Happy

No me agradezcas, Gracias Jesus! cheers

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Post by HSM 25/08/18, 11:00 pm

Even the pool doesn't include all the best players, it should have enough to form a very good team. I think the problem is the coach. Does the coach have the knowledge to teach athletes to play smart? Does the coach know how to pick a group of girls that can form a good team? Remember, this is team sports. If you select all the super stars from every state, can they play well together? IMO, super stars do not share the ball well. Are they willing to learn to play team sport when everyone on the team are equally good? A good team needs to have good chemistry. I wonder how long have they been playing as a team for each youth national team.

All I want to say, if BFS is the only thing our coach want, what do you expect?

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Post by Pico 25/08/18, 11:33 pm

In my country first touch es everything. You see Juan Carlos Vela have a silky smooth touch. American player all have a first touch like a rapper. Es no good! Coach in America needed to focus on touch and the tean will play better.
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Post by BENDMEOVER 26/08/18, 01:57 pm

Jesus needed His disciples in His quest to spread His truth. He chose not to go alone.

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