Are these the NFL Ref's of Select Soccer?

TNT wrote:

4-4-2-Diamond wrote:

TNT wrote:

longtimewatcher wrote:easy way to fix this problem , get off the sideline and get on the field, go pay your dues take the test and then you can find out how easy it is to ref a soccer game , if you are not willing to do this then sit down be quite and enjoy the game your watching

So if you don't like the wait staff get out of your chair and start serving tables? How about expecting a person to do their job, not all do a bad job, but some are horrible; maybe accountability should be applied as it is in most jobs.

If your kids are spending a huge amount of their time and energy in the restuarant, and you're concerned for their well being, and you feel you could do something to make a difference, then YES, get involved. It's not just a job.

[edit] though I agree wholeheartedly with your accountability point[/edit]

I guess we should all just home school also as we expect teachers to do a professional job even though their pay is not enough, and maybe we should become a doctor as well to ensure they are receiving proper medical attention, and then on the weekends I could referee their soccer games. If I am paying I do not expect to have to do someones job for them to receive proper service and anyone who says thats the answer must be a ref.

You going to pay the ref the same as the doctor? It's also common to hear from teachers that the most successful students are the ones with involved parents.

JeffM wrote:

TNT wrote:

4-4-2-Diamond wrote:

TNT wrote:

longtimewatcher wrote:easy way to fix this problem , get off the sideline and get on the field, go pay your dues take the test and then you can find out how easy it is to ref a soccer game , if you are not willing to do this then sit down be quite and enjoy the game your watching

So if you don't like the wait staff get out of your chair and start serving tables? How about expecting a person to do their job, not all do a bad job, but some are horrible; maybe accountability should be applied as it is in most jobs.

If your kids are spending a huge amount of their time and energy in the restuarant, and you're concerned for their well being, and you feel you could do something to make a difference, then YES, get involved. It's not just a job.

[edit] though I agree wholeheartedly with your accountability point[/edit]

I guess we should all just home school also as we expect teachers to do a professional job even though their pay is not enough, and maybe we should become a doctor as well to ensure they are receiving proper medical attention, and then on the weekends I could referee their soccer games. If I am paying I do not expect to have to do someones job for them to receive proper service and anyone who says thats the answer must be a ref.

You going to pay the ref the same as the doctor? It's also common to hear from teachers that the most successful students are the ones with involved parents.

Hopefully TXSOCCER.NET counts as parental involvement!

and I would double the refs pay $40-50/game - it is $2 per kid more per game or $35/season.

In LHCGL each team pays $23 to one AR and $20 to the CR($40/game total).

berserker13 wrote:In LHCGL each team pays $23 to one AR and $20 to the CR($40/game total).

I checked with my son and that is correct. To me that is darn good money per game. So I don't think "perceived" lack of quality is the result of poor pay.

34blast wrote:

berserker13 wrote:In LHCGL each team pays $23 to one AR and $20 to the CR($40/game total).

I checked with my son and that is correct. To me that is darn good money per game. So I don't think "perceived" lack of quality is the result of poor pay.

So sign up! If a ref works 4 games - it is 6-7Hrs plus driving time and cost: 4 games x $23 = $92 maybe a bot more if they rotate in as a CR, but by my math you real net is $12-14/hr and them give you cut to the Gov! oh wait?...Hmmmm how do they account for that?

Not DARN GOOD MONEY...but everything is relative.

Hook It wrote:

34blast wrote:

berserker13 wrote:In LHCGL each team pays $23 to one AR and $20 to the CR($40/game total).

I checked with my son and that is correct. To me that is darn good money per game. So I don't think "perceived" lack of quality is the result of poor pay.

So sign up! If a ref works 4 games - it is 6-7Hrs plus driving time and cost: 4 games x $23 = $92 maybe a bot more if they rotate in as a CR, but by my math you real net is $12-14/hr and them give you cut to the Gov! oh wait?...Hmmmm how do they account for that?

Not DARN GOOD MONEY...but everything is relative.

Hookit is correct. It might be good money for a 17 year old guy working a U13 game, but it's pretty sorry if the goal is to bring in mature and seasoned professionals who will take the job seriously and be accountable. No disrespect to your son (well, not entirely).

No doubt the refs have a tough job, however expecting obvious dangerous calls to be made is not asking to much. I would rather have over zealous calls made in order to protect the players then ignoring of such, were only asking for all of our kids to be protected. If the issue is the pay, then they should ask for more as I have no issue with paying them a fair wage for a good job, however if their excuse is that some are doing a less than expectations job due to their pay then such is not acceptable. Also, do not take comments as a dig at all refs, and anyones answer to address the situation calls for parents to step up or shut up is a simple minded answer. I cannot imagine that being the answer at any other business situation, you complain about service else where do you apply for the persons job? I don't think that would be your answer if it were you they were complaing about or one of your employees.

TNT wrote:No doubt the refs have a tough job, however expecting obvious dangerous calls to be made is not asking to much. I would rather have over zealous calls made in order to protect the players then ignoring of such, were only asking for all of our kids to be protected. If the issue is the pay, then they should ask for more as I have no issue with paying them a fair wage for a good job, however if their excuse is that some are doing a less than expectations job due to their pay then such is not acceptable. Also, do not take comments as a dig at all refs, and anyones answer to address the situation calls for parents to step up or shut up is a simple minded answer. I cannot imagine that being the answer at any other business situation, you complain about service else where do you apply for the persons job? I don't think that would be your answer if it were you they were complaing about or one of your employees.

The only one it is truly a business for is the clubs. If you can make the issue affect their money, it will get fixed. Other than that, this is a part time job at best for those not motivated by a love of the game. We may be paying the refs, but I don't see that we have the customer/employee relationship with them you do. Most businesses a customer can go directly to someone in charge (owner/manager)immediately and affect change, or figure out you need to go elsewhere. With the soccer structure, there is not a lot of elsewhere to go to. Unless someone starts a separate select league, with their own pool of refs that are clearly superior (and they will charge for it) this situation is closer to the small not for profit organization that relys on volunteers to get the job done. They are reticent to "fire" a volunteer for fear of not being able to replace them. Select soccer (and select youth sports in general) is in a no man's land. These organizations are really built upon rec models with only for profit part being the clubs (who do you pay more to the club or the ref?/If you get lousy service from the club there's another one to go to.)

In short I really don't think comparing this to for profit businesses, and expecting it to change by applying the same methods to affect change to a for profit business as a customer is going to work.

The most season refs are CR 4 X 40 = $160

This is not their full time job, so that's not that bad.

Xara wrote:Hookit is correct. It might be good money for a 17 year old guy working a U13 game, but it's pretty sorry if the goal is to bring in mature and seasoned professionals who will take the job seriously and be accountable. No disrespect to your son (well, not entirely).

Mature and seasoned professional refs? You think Lake Highlands should match the ref pay of NCAA or MLS games? Even if they could, What makes you think a significant number of professional referees are even WILLING to accept U13 girls games instead of the higher profile games?

I will grant you I was off message a bit when I used the phrase "Volunteers with a nominal stipend". Our local refs certainly aren't volunteers as most won't start your game without being paid. I was trying to explain the SERVICE component of why many officials do it year in and year out. Many love the game. Many feel they are giving back in some way. You can double or triple the pay and the money still isn't the driving factor for them. Those are the refs who say to hell with LH I'll go ref GLASA or Plano for less money and more enjoyment.

I'll also concede there is a (small) contingent of very, very good officials who are not Professional level refs, but who do indeed ref for the money. These guys are not center circle refs, and they do a boatload of games every week. I know one who does 10 to 12 games on Saturday and Sunday alone. Very skilled guy, incredible fitness, loves the game.

So yeah, maybe that type of ref might turn down a few assignments to take more LH games if they paid more, but he won't in the long run because he knows he's not going to advance to the next level doing LH games. If he wants to become a state, national or professional ref, he's going to make sure he keeps himself available to the assignors who do high level games (i.e. Boys classic, academy, adult mens, etc). LH will still be second choice for those types, even if it pays more money.

The macro issue is youth sports is already chock full of entities formerly service oriented 20 years ago who now make big bucks off kids sports. First the DOCs, then coaches, then skills trainers, and now we're advocating throwing big money at referees.

I just don't buy it. Put a ton of money in the equation and get local U13 refs paying car notes and mortgages with their fees. Exactly how will that help the game if those refs are now even more scared and powerless to stand up to coaches or parents? How did that help the players and families since league fees just went up?

The root cause is the small percentage of yahoos being allowed to ruin it for everyone. You don't make yahoos behave by finding better officials and paying them more. Folks are wired up because too much of their money is wrapped up in this whole thing - coaches and parents.

Solution is simple. Set boundaries and ensure they are respected. Then maybe that 17-year-old could've started reffing at 12 without idiotic parents and coaches running him off. Then maybe by the time he's 17 he could do a U13 game with 5 years experience behind him and more knowledge about LOTG than 99% of parents and coaches...and still have the energy to do a great job for 20 to 40 bucks a game.

4-4-2-Diamond wrote:

Xara wrote:Hookit is correct. It might be good money for a 17 year old guy working a U13 game, but it's pretty sorry if the goal is to bring in mature and seasoned professionals who will take the job seriously and be accountable. No disrespect to your son (well, not entirely).

Mature and seasoned professional refs? You think Lake Highlands should match the ref pay of NCAA or MLS games? Even if they could, What makes you think a significant number of professional referees are even WILLING to accept U13 girls games instead of the higher profile games?

I will grant you I was off message a bit when I used the phrase "Volunteers with a nominal stipend". Our local refs certainly aren't volunteers as most won't start your game without being paid. I was trying to explain the SERVICE component of why many officials do it year in and year out. Many love the game. Many feel they are giving back in some way. You can double or triple the pay and the money still isn't the driving factor for them. Those are the refs who say to hell with LH I'll go ref GLASA or Plano for less money and more enjoyment.

I'll also concede there is a (small) contingent of very, very good officials who are not Professional level refs, but who do indeed ref for the money. These guys are not center circle refs, and they do a boatload of games every week. I know one who does 10 to 12 games on Saturday and Sunday alone. Very skilled guy, incredible fitness, loves the game.

So yeah, maybe that type of ref might turn down a few assignments to take more LH games if they paid more, but he won't in the long run because he knows he's not going to advance to the next level doing LH games. If he wants to become a state, national or professional ref, he's going to make sure he keeps himself available to the assignors who do high level games (i.e. Boys classic, academy, adult mens, etc). LH will still be second choice for those types, even if it pays more money.

The macro issue is youth sports is already chock full of entities formerly service oriented 20 years ago who now make big bucks off kids sports. First the DOCs, then coaches, then skills trainers, and now we're advocating throwing big money at referees.

I just don't buy it. Put a ton of money in the equation and get local U13 refs paying car notes and mortgages with their fees. Exactly how will that help the game if those refs are now even more scared and powerless to stand up to coaches or parents? How did that help the players and families since league fees just went up?

The root cause is the small percentage of yahoos being allowed to ruin it for everyone. You don't make yahoos behave by finding better officials and paying them more. Folks are wired up because too much of their money is wrapped up in this whole thing - coaches and parents.

Solution is simple. Set boundaries and ensure they are respected. Then maybe that 17-year-old could've started reffing at 12 without idiotic parents and coaches running him off. Then maybe by the time he's 17 he could do a U13 game with 5 years experience behind him and more knowledge about LOTG than 99% of parents and coaches...and still have the energy to do a great job for 20 to 40 bucks a game.

He had that at 12 when he got his Grade 9.

34blast wrote:The most season refs are CR 4 X 40 = $160

This is not their full time job, so that's not that bad.

Really, I am so surprised to find out that this is not ther full-time job!!!

You get paid for what you actually do that day. 1/3 CR and 2/3 AR......the math stands if you know or talk to any refs they mostly mix it up during the several games per day that they may ref.

My favorite Ref quote: "this barely covers my weekend dinking habits"

34blast wrote:How much do you think Center and ARs refs make? My son makes $23 for AR duties per game, I forget the CR pay. He is a higher level ref though. Some orgs pay more based on your level. So unless LHGCL pays less than railroad or rec games, I say they get a fair pay.

Some refs are not good, but I would say parents are much worse. Most don't know the rules at all and want to "help" the refs frequently.

Common and frequent funny stories.
Parent berates the ref because their daughter was touched, no touching in soccer correct?
Daughter went cleats up and dangerous, but she did not foul because she got the ball.
Ball was out, it touched the line.
Handball, it touched their hand

I'd say that occasionally we have refs that would agree with all of the above and I think that is the problem. No one really cares about stupid parents, but it is their money paying the refs to be there so I don't mind them making their stupid comments. I get annoyed when the ones being paid to be there have no grasp of some of these basics.

I would prefer a robot; something fair, impartial, and impassioned. Seems like refs I've seen recently have turned into prima-donnas.
I know refs are volunteer, but I would really like to have a ref that, actually watches the field during play, can get OUT of the way, a ref that can RUN, and a ref that makes calls consistently. Seem like I'm asking too much? Mmmhmm....compared to what I've seen lately, at least the NFL refs appear competent to their NTX counterparts

4-4-2-Diamond wrote:

Xara wrote:Hookit is correct. It might be good money for a 17 year old guy working a U13 game, but it's pretty sorry if the goal is to bring in mature and seasoned professionals who will take the job seriously and be accountable. No disrespect to your son (well, not entirely).

Mature and seasoned professional refs? You think Lake Highlands should match the ref pay of NCAA or MLS games? Even if they could, What makes you think a significant number of professional referees are even WILLING to accept U13 girls games instead of the higher profile games?

I will grant you I was off message a bit when I used the phrase "Volunteers with a nominal stipend". Our local refs certainly aren't volunteers as most won't start your game without being paid. I was trying to explain the SERVICE component of why many officials do it year in and year out. Many love the game. Many feel they are giving back in some way. You can double or triple the pay and the money still isn't the driving factor for them. Those are the refs who say to hell with LH I'll go ref GLASA or Plano for less money and more enjoyment.

I'll also concede there is a (small) contingent of very, very good officials who are not Professional level refs, but who do indeed ref for the money. These guys are not center circle refs, and they do a boatload of games every week. I know one who does 10 to 12 games on Saturday and Sunday alone. Very skilled guy, incredible fitness, loves the game.

So yeah, maybe that type of ref might turn down a few assignments to take more LH games if they paid more, but he won't in the long run because he knows he's not going to advance to the next level doing LH games. If he wants to become a state, national or professional ref, he's going to make sure he keeps himself available to the assignors who do high level games (i.e. Boys classic, academy, adult mens, etc). LH will still be second choice for those types, even if it pays more money.

The macro issue is youth sports is already chock full of entities formerly service oriented 20 years ago who now make big bucks off kids sports. First the DOCs, then coaches, then skills trainers, and now we're advocating throwing big money at referees.

I just don't buy it. Put a ton of money in the equation and get local U13 refs paying car notes and mortgages with their fees. Exactly how will that help the game if those refs are now even more scared and powerless to stand up to coaches or parents? How did that help the players and families since league fees just went up?

The root cause is the small percentage of yahoos being allowed to ruin it for everyone. You don't make yahoos behave by finding better officials and paying them more. Folks are wired up because too much of their money is wrapped up in this whole thing - coaches and parents.

Solution is simple. Set boundaries and ensure they are respected. Then maybe that 17-year-old could've started reffing at 12 without idiotic parents and coaches running him off. Then maybe by the time he's 17 he could do a U13 game with 5 years experience behind him and more knowledge about LOTG than 99% of parents and coaches...and still have the energy to do a great job for 20 to 40 bucks a game.

Well said, so with out a system of feedback/communication that people believe will make a difference, perhaps which could establish data for correction on performance, refs, parents, coaches.... it will never improve.

midfieldersdad wrote:I would prefer a robot; something fair, impartial, and impassioned. Seems like refs I've seen recently have turned into prima-donnas.
I know refs are volunteer, but I would really like to have a ref that, actually watches the field during play, can get OUT of the way, a ref that can RUN, and a ref that makes calls consistently. Seem like I'm asking too much? Mmmhmm....compared to what I've seen lately, at least the NFL refs appear competent to their NTX counterparts

Well, I don't know your opinion about Howard Webb, but he just had a red card he issued during an EPL game rescinded by the FA.