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Question on a new rule
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Question on a new rule
by jabberjaw 13/06/13, 10:56 pm
Is there a new rule in North Texas Soccer about a player that can play on different teams within same club during league play? For example can a player play for the LH D2 team and then also play on the ppl team?
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Re: Question on a new rule
by Guest 13/06/13, 11:10 pm
Since both LHGCL and PPL are NTSSA sanctioned competitive leagues, that means that one of two things would have had to happen:
1) NTSSA would have had to modify it's rule prohibiting a player from being on the official NTSSA roster of more than one competitive team. Call NTSSA and ask them directly about this.
2) If "1" did not happen, then either LHGCL or PPL would have had to change their rules to allow for guest players in league play. After you speak with NTSSA, call LHGCL and PPL and ask them directly.
I would expect any of those organizations to give you a clear and direct answer to your question.
1) NTSSA would have had to modify it's rule prohibiting a player from being on the official NTSSA roster of more than one competitive team. Call NTSSA and ask them directly about this.
2) If "1" did not happen, then either LHGCL or PPL would have had to change their rules to allow for guest players in league play. After you speak with NTSSA, call LHGCL and PPL and ask them directly.
I would expect any of those organizations to give you a clear and direct answer to your question.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by aggiemt 14/06/13, 08:22 am
Are you referring to the Club Pass rule? A coach recently mentioned to me that the rule has changed for the coming 2013-14 season and can be used throughout the year rather than just for State Cup. I'm not sure how accurate that is though and didn't find anything on the NTSSA website.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by jabberjaw 14/06/13, 02:18 pm
Yes I believe that is the rule... Coach is trying to use this as a recruiting tactic.. Telling us to sign with lower team and midway through season bring up to the higher team... Not sure if this can happen and if its really a rule.. Doesn't make sense to me..
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Re: Question on a new rule
by aggiemt 14/06/13, 02:39 pm
You could always check with NTSSA to get clarification on the rule. Regardless, you may not want to sign with a team you aren't willing to be with for the entirety of the year. Even if the rule has changed there is no guarantee that the coach will do what he says. Not bashing the coach, just saying that the team movement may or may not happen for any multitude of reasons so better to make sure you're happy where you start than find halfway through the year you're stuck with no move in sight. Best of luck!
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Re: Question on a new rule
by soccersounder 14/06/13, 03:28 pm
I have heard from LHGCL Board Members that they are seariously trying to adopt the year long club pass rules used in OK and STX (and here in NTX for State Cup/Regionals/Nationals). Typically designed for teams down to 11 / 12 players. They could get help from sister teams at the club. But obviously could be used to move players around and as a Recruiting tool
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Re: Question on a new rule
by flippinA 14/06/13, 05:07 pm
Isn't that called the "kicks rule"?.... Doh!!!
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Re: Question on a new rule
by dadof3 15/06/13, 08:57 am
Not that LH has called to ask, and I am still not sure this will pass any sort of test since monitoring it would be cumbersome and time consuming and enforcement would be quite difficult, but if that rule was to take effect, I would support it IF...
You couldn't move players down unless they stayed down for a predetermined number of games (I would say 3-4 games, and that would carry over fall to spring-and NO movement in the last 3 games at all)...That way, making the choice to "help" a lower team win a league game would mean sacrificing a player from the higher level team for XX number of games...Also, call ups would be limited to maybe 2-3 times (then the player is frozen on the higher roster)...Oh, AND a stiff penalty (forfeiture) for games where the rule was not heeded.
That would allow players to move, but it would need to be a well thought decision. Call ups wouldn't be limited to the point that it COULDN'T happen, and call downs would be allowed, but discouraged unless it was a well thought decision and that player really needed a change.
You couldn't move players down unless they stayed down for a predetermined number of games (I would say 3-4 games, and that would carry over fall to spring-and NO movement in the last 3 games at all)...That way, making the choice to "help" a lower team win a league game would mean sacrificing a player from the higher level team for XX number of games...Also, call ups would be limited to maybe 2-3 times (then the player is frozen on the higher roster)...Oh, AND a stiff penalty (forfeiture) for games where the rule was not heeded.
That would allow players to move, but it would need to be a well thought decision. Call ups wouldn't be limited to the point that it COULDN'T happen, and call downs would be allowed, but discouraged unless it was a well thought decision and that player really needed a change.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by TallTexxan 16/06/13, 11:41 am
I am trying to figure out exactly what the opposition is to the potential rule change. Are you worried about the "superstar" player dropping in and taking away playing time? If so, then the player losing time probably should be looking for another team anyway.
This rule would allow clubs to move girls up as the need arises...and that need could be defined as winning a game, allowing a top player to move up and challenge their game even more, cover for injuries, etc.
This should be a win-win situation for the teams and players...and I don't understand why people on this forum wouldn't embrace the opportunity for certain players to advance and improve their development.
This already happens every single weekend for ECNL teams and it sure seems to be working out just fine. Why would Lake Highlands not offer the same opportunity within its leagues?
This rule would allow clubs to move girls up as the need arises...and that need could be defined as winning a game, allowing a top player to move up and challenge their game even more, cover for injuries, etc.
This should be a win-win situation for the teams and players...and I don't understand why people on this forum wouldn't embrace the opportunity for certain players to advance and improve their development.
This already happens every single weekend for ECNL teams and it sure seems to be working out just fine. Why would Lake Highlands not offer the same opportunity within its leagues?
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Re: Question on a new rule
by Soccerdood 16/06/13, 12:06 pm
Upward movement to a higher division seems to make sense. There might be a concern with downward movement, depending on the rules. Clubs with multiple teams might move players down to help a weaker team win to retain a bye or to help in recruiting if helps team finish higher. Clubs with multiple teams do this all the time to help weaker teams win tournaments that in turn help in recruiting.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by flippinA 16/06/13, 12:43 pm
I would be more concerned with downward movement.. I'm all for upward movement
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Re: Question on a new rule
by Enderslaststand 16/06/13, 01:02 pm
It seems like this only benefits large clubs. It would not help a lot of teams and could put them at a serious disadvantage at all levels of LH.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by intrinsic 16/06/13, 01:14 pm
A previous poster wrote:
"I am trying to figure out exactly what the opposition is to the potential rule change. Are you worried about the "superstar" player dropping in and taking away playing time? If so, then the player losing time probably should be looking for another team anyway. "
I don't understand this- are you saying that if you are good enough to be on a team and play significant minutes when the full roster is available, but you lose minutes/playing time when a player from a higher ranked team visits for the weekend- that this indicates you aren't good enough to be on the team? In other words, a player should not only be good enough to play on the current roster, but also good enough to play when stronger players come to play with the team. But if that's the case, shouldn't the player be on the higher ranked team to begin with?
"I am trying to figure out exactly what the opposition is to the potential rule change. Are you worried about the "superstar" player dropping in and taking away playing time? If so, then the player losing time probably should be looking for another team anyway. "
I don't understand this- are you saying that if you are good enough to be on a team and play significant minutes when the full roster is available, but you lose minutes/playing time when a player from a higher ranked team visits for the weekend- that this indicates you aren't good enough to be on the team? In other words, a player should not only be good enough to play on the current roster, but also good enough to play when stronger players come to play with the team. But if that's the case, shouldn't the player be on the higher ranked team to begin with?
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Re: Question on a new rule
by Gunner9 16/06/13, 01:18 pm
There have been a few threads about this supposed rule change now. I still haven't heard a single person explain how it is good for the players or the game.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by TallTexxan 16/06/13, 04:34 pm
Intrinsic, that player who is already making a major contribution to the team and playing meaningful minutes isn't the one being impacted...it's the players on the back f the roster (as always). And those are the players I am talking about where it is already a stretch to be on the team.
Gunner, my personal opinion is that is good for the team when they give an opportunity for a younger player to drop in and essentially guest play against particular teams if they have a need due to injury, need for a competitive advantage, etc. This happens in ECNL every weekend and will happen again next weekend in Colorado for the year end tournament. U15 teams will add players from their U14 teams or lake highland teams to provide roster depth, positional needs, etc. Clearly its a benefit for the club and team to add these players...or else they wouldn't be doing it. Lake highlands is going to consider implementing a rule that is already proving to be a positive opportunity for teams and players.
For the players, it's a huge benefit to get the opportunity to play up against stronger teams and opponents. It's a recognition of that players abilities and growth as a player
I fail to see how this could be detrimental for anyone involved...clearly playing time for some will be impacted. The primary complaint that I have read is that it isn't fair to the current roster to have players drop in from game to game and take away playing time. But that's the nature of competitive sports.
Gunner, my personal opinion is that is good for the team when they give an opportunity for a younger player to drop in and essentially guest play against particular teams if they have a need due to injury, need for a competitive advantage, etc. This happens in ECNL every weekend and will happen again next weekend in Colorado for the year end tournament. U15 teams will add players from their U14 teams or lake highland teams to provide roster depth, positional needs, etc. Clearly its a benefit for the club and team to add these players...or else they wouldn't be doing it. Lake highlands is going to consider implementing a rule that is already proving to be a positive opportunity for teams and players.
For the players, it's a huge benefit to get the opportunity to play up against stronger teams and opponents. It's a recognition of that players abilities and growth as a player
I fail to see how this could be detrimental for anyone involved...clearly playing time for some will be impacted. The primary complaint that I have read is that it isn't fair to the current roster to have players drop in from game to game and take away playing time. But that's the nature of competitive sports.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by rockindaddy 16/06/13, 06:20 pm
Nature of competitive sports ? I doubt a school would take there best 100 meter runner who happens to be an underclassmen and have them run a Jv race just so she could be the JV district champ. The Rangers aren't going to send down Yu and Beltre at the end of the triple A season so they can when the championship.
Call it what it is. A way for the big clubs to keep as many teams in as high a position as possible.If that is the goal then so be it but don't sugarcoat it.
Call it what it is. A way for the big clubs to keep as many teams in as high a position as possible.If that is the goal then so be it but don't sugarcoat it.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by InaB 16/06/13, 09:09 pm
Hi Rockin, I would say you are closer to the truth than a club simply giving guest play opportunities for players - at least if a higher ranked team player is shifted down to a sister team to help play in a game. There would only be one purpose for a D1 player to guest play for a D2 or 3 team - to boost the team's record. Playing up, in my opinion, would actually prove beneficial to a player from a lower division team. I have often wondered what it proves when a team "borrows" players from higher ranked sister teams for tournaments - especially in June. Yes, it makes their record look better, but (and this is a big but) it is a false picture of what the team can actually do - especially if they are trying for QTs. I understand that winning tournaments might also make a team more enticing for new players once June comes around. Just seems that it would be a disappointment if the team can't produce in the normal course of events.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by jabberjaw 16/06/13, 09:23 pm
Rockin and inb, that's what I'm talkin about... Tall tex, don't u agree, that u shouldn't play down, but playing up is the more benefit for player and club?
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Re: Question on a new rule
by clueless 16/06/13, 09:49 pm
I'd be in favor of this rule. But, it's far from a win-win for everyone. Unless there are a ton of injuries - that player moving up is taking away minutes from someone. This isn't capitalism where you can create a bigger pie (minutes).
For clubs, you can sell people on the ability to move, for playersparents - obviously, it's a carrot.
Doesn't make sense to allow any downward movement - doubt that would be in the cards. The only possible situation I could see that would warrant downward movement would be if a team were in dire need for players and could forfeit their games/season. I'm all for overage players playing if it prevents forfeits as that doesn't help anyone.
I don't give any credence to rules helping big versus small clubs - been on both sides of that equation and the fact of the matter is, the league really wouldn't exist if they didn't pamper big clubs (big clubs are needed - lifeblood of the whole deal).
For clubs, you can sell people on the ability to move, for playersparents - obviously, it's a carrot.
Doesn't make sense to allow any downward movement - doubt that would be in the cards. The only possible situation I could see that would warrant downward movement would be if a team were in dire need for players and could forfeit their games/season. I'm all for overage players playing if it prevents forfeits as that doesn't help anyone.
I don't give any credence to rules helping big versus small clubs - been on both sides of that equation and the fact of the matter is, the league really wouldn't exist if they didn't pamper big clubs (big clubs are needed - lifeblood of the whole deal).
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Re: Question on a new rule
by Guest 16/06/13, 10:58 pm
I think it's a good rule. I don't think we should have all these rigid year long boundaries between teams. It serves no purpose other than maintaining the purity of league standings...which are meaningless in terms of youth player development.
Also disagree 100% with the idea a player on a highly ranked team gets nothing from playing down. Nothing could be further from the truth. On many D1 teams the bottom 1/3 of the roster needs work and could use all the touches they can get. Before talent consolidates at the top, a good # of them at the younger ages aren't all that much better than the top D2 players, and giving a coach the flexibility to give those players minutes to strengthen their weaknesses might keep them progressing instead of having to cut them at the end of every year. I've also seen where a coach plays a kid down at different positions and asks them to perform different roles.
If the rule is implemented it should give the coaches flexibility in BOTH directions. Unless it's for injuries, when you move a player up to get minutes someone already there is losing them. You should be able to move another player down to get minutes too.
Also disagree 100% with the idea a player on a highly ranked team gets nothing from playing down. Nothing could be further from the truth. On many D1 teams the bottom 1/3 of the roster needs work and could use all the touches they can get. Before talent consolidates at the top, a good # of them at the younger ages aren't all that much better than the top D2 players, and giving a coach the flexibility to give those players minutes to strengthen their weaknesses might keep them progressing instead of having to cut them at the end of every year. I've also seen where a coach plays a kid down at different positions and asks them to perform different roles.
If the rule is implemented it should give the coaches flexibility in BOTH directions. Unless it's for injuries, when you move a player up to get minutes someone already there is losing them. You should be able to move another player down to get minutes too.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by rockindaddy 17/06/13, 06:03 am
If you don't want rigid year long boundaries then why sign contracts win a specific team. Just sign a contract with a club and they can move each DD around each week to there liking. Or why even sign per club just make it where each week is and all out recruitment to serve each coach/teams purpose.
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Kicks Nation
by wxyz 17/06/13, 07:12 am
3-4-3 wrote:I think it's a good rule...
-----------------
No question that it is a good rule... for any club that has more than one team in the same age group with coaches that actually work closely with other coaches within the club. I cannot think of any other club (other than Kicks) where coaches of different teams in the same age group actually communicate with each other about players. In fact, I suspect that most coaches prefer to recruit players from other clubs than from other teams within the same club (maybe except during ECNL team formation). Probably because it is more about competition than cooperation among coaches within the club. Also, probably because it is more about revenue than player development for the club. Maybe this rule will encourage other clubs to force coaches within the club to work closely regarding player development and movement... NOT!
Also, this rule would work best if players and parents do not care as much about who the coach and the teammates are... The reality is that for many players and parents, this is important. For many players, playing on a D1/ECNL/ODP team is less important than playing for a coach and teammates they are comfortable with.
The bottom line is that it is a good rule for Kicks. However, this rule will not do much for any established teams outside Kicks '01 teams, especially for smaller clubs with only one teams per age group. More importantly, it will unfairly disadvantage smaller clubs in terms of player development and in terms of their ability to recruit and retain players. Would Kicks Nation have supported this rule when they only had one '01 team?
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Re: Question on a new rule
by TallTexxan 17/06/13, 12:45 pm
jabberjaw wrote:Rockin and inb, that's what I'm talkin about... Tall tex, don't u agree, that u shouldn't play down, but playing up is the more benefit for player and club?
Yes, I agree that having players drop down is not in the spirit of the rule even though I do agree with 3-4-3 in that the player could still have a positive developmental experience in that environment.
The benefits for both player and club are primarily for upward movement and not downward movement,
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Re: Question on a new rule
by TNT 17/06/13, 03:33 pm
Sounds absurd....if you picked the wrong players in June so what just bounce a few more in during the year, it also would be a way to really shank the smaller clubs.
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Re: Question on a new rule
by Lefty 17/06/13, 04:05 pm
TNT wrote:Sounds absurd....if you picked the wrong players in June so what just bounce a few more in during the year, it also would be a way to really shank the smaller clubs.
Would be fine if the team provided the other players on the team the opportunity to opt out of their existing financial committment/contract, or do away with the mention of teams in the contracts all together and make the contracts with the club to provide training and rostering of your DD on one of their teams (at their discretion) for X number of games.
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