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Post by Thegriff on 15/09/13, 02:17 pm

I seriously believe north Texas has the most unqualified refs I have ever seen in my life. To have the quality if soccer players we have vs the poor quality of refs it just seems an injustice to the kids.
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Post by ekkeeper1 on 15/09/13, 03:01 pm

feel free to take the referee course and join us if you are not one already. the sad thing is I know some good referees who quit because they are treated badly and get sick of the abuse. young and referees are treated so badly at times they last a season if that. I know there are bad refs out there but there are good ones too.

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Post by FriscoSoccer2004 on 15/09/13, 03:22 pm

I second that, there are a lot of young people that are coming up thru rec associations and learning the ropes but have no interest in coaching academy and older ages because of the way they have seen other refs treated at games.

Even if they make a mistake (we all do) just leave them alone, it is part of the game, they have mentors and team members that will coach them up and help them improve.
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Post by Thegriff on 15/09/13, 03:39 pm

I will give them a few bad calls but when you miss 4 or 5 a half it's not for you. And your right there are some good refs I've actually seen them but if they are making that many mistakes its the main refs job to let them know what they need to fix and not to just keep ignoring it. When the coach of the other team makes his kids kick the ball to the other team it's time for a little more training. O and let's get all 3 refs there for the full game not just the last 10 minutes of the game
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Post by FriscoSoccer2004 on 15/09/13, 04:06 pm

Thegriff wrote:I will give them a few bad calls but when you miss 4 or 5 a half it's not for you. And your right  there are some good refs I've actually seen them but if they are making that many mistakes its the main refs job to let them know what they need to fix and not to just keep ignoring it. When the coach of the other team makes his kids kick the ball to the other team it's time for a little more training. O and let's get all 3 refs there for the full game not just the last 10 minutes of the game
What league was this in?
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Post by Thegriff on 15/09/13, 04:10 pm

TGPL
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Post by FriscoSoccer2004 on 15/09/13, 04:17 pm

Thegriff wrote:TGPL
Honestly we had a similar experience with that league last Fall and was a factor in why we didn't play there this year.
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Post by 10sDad on 15/09/13, 05:20 pm

The problem is that we have lots of bad refs, and only a few good ones. The good ones quit because they get yelled at too much because the bad ones give refereeing a bad name. The bad ones stay because when a coach yells at them for being incompetent, they get to call the game totally one sided and make the coach livid. THEN once they have pushed them over the edge, they get to kick them out, and show them that they are the all great and powerful! - with no recourse, mind you.

For crying out loud, the referees are untouchable! They have absolutely no oversight, they have absolutely no accountability - and they are as vindictive as all get out. You could bring a videotape of a referee punching a coach in the face to NTX soccer, and they would suspend the coach for putting his face in the way. NTX pretty much states that if a referee does something totally wrong like awarding a PK for being offside on a throw or something - that he/she is infallibly correct, and if you argue during the game, you are thrown out/suspended, and if you argue after the game, the referees decision stands, and there is no recourse at all - especially if a D1 bye or major tournament advancement is on the line. Actually, it's kind of a nice job to have, now that I think about it...if I am wrong, I am still right, and if you dispute my infallible correctness, I can penalize you. I can be as vindictive as I want, and affect outcomes of games just because I don't like a coach, maybe there is a HSM on the other team, or maybe I can make some money on the side like professional FIFA refs...hmmm....

So now, nobody of any moral character wants to be a ref, because they don't want to be associated with the corruption and/or incompetence that is unfortunately now assumed to be true. Cuz, let's face it most refs are either one or the other. When people go to games, they are already skeptical of the referee before the match even starts, so the good refs are already at a disadvantage.

In my experience (500+) youth games, I have yet to see a good referee get yelled at by either coach. There is an occasional "c'mon ref!" from an under-informed parent now and again, but nothing major. They may miss a call, and a coach may say something - but they don't try to get even... and the game goes on without any further incident. The referees that get screamed at the most...generally deserve it - these are the ones that let the game get out of control - putting player safety and potential college soccer careers at risk over pride and their personal battle with certain coaches.

Instead of protecting the bad referees, perhaps we should get better ones...or are they unionized? Why is there no accountability to weed out the bad ones? Make it a noble and respected position, and people may just want to do it.
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Post by ekkeeper1 on 15/09/13, 05:47 pm

there is accountability in some leagues I know there are assessors at boys classic league. I have been assessed on 4 occasions in Arlington. I'm sure lake highlands has them out there as well. state cup evaluates refs at every game. I know where I ref the assignor is available on site most of time. as for academy age I get how it can be hard because that's where inexperienced refs will start.




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Post by Lefty on 15/09/13, 05:55 pm

ekkeeper1 wrote:there is accountability in some leagues I know there are assessors at boys classic league. I have been assessed on 4 occasions in Arlington. I'm sure lake highlands has them out there as well. state cup evaluates refs at every game. I know where I ref the assignor is available on site most of time. as for academy age I get how it can be hard because that's where inexperienced refs will start.



So help us understand what does the assessor say or do when you have a poor game?

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Post by Thegriff on 15/09/13, 05:55 pm

Totally agree with you 10sDad I don't want to dislike the refs but when they do not know when to call offsides, don't want to call a handball in the box, call it an indirect kick when a player is pulled down by their jersey by the opposing team to keep them from getting a shot off it starts to tick me off a little. And that was just this weekend. I have seen some good refs and I always make sure I tell them they did a good job after the game and during in hopes I see them ref our game again. I guess 2 days in a row of bad refs has just got me going
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Post by Thegriff on 15/09/13, 05:56 pm

And to all you good refs please keep up the good work and don't leave us stuck with the other guys
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Post by orbitzone2000 on 15/09/13, 06:21 pm

I was always tought that the refs are a part of the game. Blaming the ref for a win or a loss is just teaching our young ones to make excuses. I know there are good refs and bad ones but just like anything you take the good with the bad. Coming on a forum and blasting the refs is just as wrong as a ref making bad calls because he or she does not like a particular coach. If you want it to change. Go to the league director and file a complaint, follow protocol & don't let them push you aside, Follow Up!! Some times as parents we like to take games and competition to seriously and it clouds our judgement. I know I've been there.

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Post by Guest on 15/09/13, 06:59 pm

"Coming on a forum and blasting the refs is just as wrong as a ref making bad calls because he or she does not like a particular coach."


hardly, its called accountability, which is sorely lacking in the good old boy network of ntx soccer....

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Post by orbitzone2000 on 15/09/13, 07:21 pm

silentparent wrote:"Coming on a forum and blasting the refs is just as wrong as a ref making bad calls because he or she does not like a particular coach."


hardly, its called accountability, which is sorely lacking in the good old boy network of ntx soccer....
I really like how you took one part of what I said and responded. Lets just all come on here and complain and blame the refs for why our u10 or u9 team lost. I don't see anyone on here talking about all the games they won because of a bad call! Good ol boy or not, complaining on this forum won't change anything. Step up, be a part of a solution or shut up! I don't mean to offend anyone but just tired of hearing all the chatter about refs. Lets teach our young ones how to win and lose. Not how to complain. JMO

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Post by Thegriff on 15/09/13, 07:27 pm

Yea so I guess that what the refs are teaching is " if no one says anything about the wrong you are doing its alright just keep on doing it " try that in real life and see where it gets you. If you want my respect earn it by doing what you signed up for I am not just giving it to you. We have the great Obama to do that for us
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Post by orbitzone2000 on 15/09/13, 07:42 pm

Thegriff wrote:Yea so I guess that what the refs are teaching is " if no one says anything about the wrong you are doing its alright just keep on doing it " try that in real life and see where it gets you. If you want my respect earn it by doing what you signed up for I am not just giving it to you. We have the great Obama to do that for us
Did you just throw out the Presidents Name?? Laughing That's my point, really do something about it. Don't come on a forum and spinelessly complain behind a username. I bet that will get you really far in life, Right?? Refs are part of the game and we need to teach our children as such. My point is there is a way to make your voice heard and this is not the way. Just a side note. Idk about you, but I don't want refs to teach my DD anything. That's why I pay her coach. JMO & everyone is entitled to one.

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Post by Guest on 15/09/13, 07:46 pm

orbit, we are doing something. raising awareness. second if no on complains nothing gets done. ntx soccer is really an insiders game to wring as much profit with as little hassle from parents as possible.

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Post by orbitzone2000 on 15/09/13, 07:55 pm

silentparent wrote:orbit, we are doing something. raising awareness. second if no on complains nothing gets done. ntx soccer is really an insiders game to wring as much profit with as little hassle from parents as possible.
I know all about The NTSSA! I can tell you they could careless about academy soccer. You guys need to go to your respective league directors and make complaints. If they still want you apart of that league then they will remove the poor refs and your problem will be solved. If your team was playing in LHGCL and you came on here saying these things you would be doing you, your child and their team a huge disservice, I can assure you of that. Believe me I understand your displeasure with the refs and most of us have been there before and take it from someone who knows. This is not the way to handle this. I'm just trying to be helpful not argumentative! cheers 

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Post by ekkeeper1 on 15/09/13, 09:29 pm

Lefty wrote:
ekkeeper1 wrote:there is accountability in some leagues I know there are assessors at boys classic league. I have been assessed on 4 occasions in Arlington. I'm sure lake highlands has them out there as well. state cup evaluates refs at every game. I know where I ref the assignor is available on site most of time. as for academy age I get how it can be hard because that's where inexperienced refs will start.



So help us understand what does the assessor say or do when you have a poor game?
I so far have not had a bad eval just some critiques on a few things I could do better, and a few things I did well. Most of the games I have been assessed on have not really been tougher games to officiate. I know of other referees who have been pulled off later games if they were not up to the level expected.  In state cup we had an issue with a player who had a red card and was not allowed to be on teams bench. This past year was the first year for me to work State Cup but we got a stern talking to just for that (was not center referee that game).  Luckily no other incident other then that game was rather smooth.  I have heard of referees being pulled from games though for poor performance. I do have to say that with younger academy age assessors are there much less frequently.


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Post by 10sDad on 16/09/13, 08:36 am

A lot of chatter about how we should complain, follow the process, etc. Trouble is, it won't right the wrong, nor will it even make a difference.

Years ago, back in rec, there was a ref that had an issue with our coach at the time. He would intentionally call things against our team (and not against the others), to the point that our girls were coming off the field bloody - just to try to get our coach riled up. We complained. NTX told us we were just sore losers (even though we won the game, and every other game that season). After the second game, we complained again...nothing. After the THIRD game, we complained again. The assessor came out to FOURTH game, and they decided that in their infinite wisdom that the referee was a good referee - but that he should not ref any more of OUR games even though there was only one game remaining in the season and he was not scheduled to work it. How's that for sweeping it under the rug? Again...no accountability whatsoever.

The "process" is purposely inadequate, time consuming and laborious to make it impossible to actually affect change from the parent/team perspective. And even if you dedicate your self to seeking change, none will happen, and your kid's safety will be put in danger week in and week out. Soccer is infinitely much more fun to watch and play when you have quality refereeing.

Perhaps my personal problem is that I have seen quality refereeing, so I know it exists. Which makes it harder for me to accept the incompetent ones.
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Post by Guest on 16/09/13, 08:45 am

10sDad wrote:A lot of chatter about how we should complain, follow the process, etc.  Trouble is, it won't right the wrong, nor will it even make a difference.

Years ago, back in rec, there was a ref that had an issue with our coach at the time.  He would intentionally call things against our team (and not against the others), to the point that our girls were coming off the field bloody - just to try to get our coach riled up.  We complained.  NTX told us we were just sore losers (even though we won the game, and every other game that season).  After the second game, we complained again...nothing.  After the THIRD game, we complained again.  The assessor came out to FOURTH game, and they decided that in their infinite wisdom that the referee was a good referee - but that he should not ref any more of OUR games even though there was only one game remaining in the season and he was not scheduled to work it.  How's that for sweeping it under the rug?  Again...no accountability whatsoever.

The "process" is purposely inadequate, time consuming and laborious to make it impossible to actually affect change from the parent/team perspective.  And even if you dedicate your self to seeking change, none will happen, and your kid's safety will be put in danger week in and week out.  Soccer is infinitely much more fun to watch and play when you have quality refereeing.

Perhaps my personal problem is that I have seen quality refereeing, so I know it exists.  Which makes it harder for me to accept the incompetent ones.
Well part of the problem is that they see parents and teams as adversaries that are attacking them and their system, instead of as customers. They reflexively dismiss these claims as sore losers, dumb parents, whining coaches etc. many have been their positions too long and view it as personal fiefdom. The process is purposefully designed to be laborious and punitive so that no one will hold them accountable...

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Post by Guest on 16/09/13, 08:50 am

Btw i think the attitude behind all this is"well its just kidsoccer" so big deal...

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Post by Guest on 16/09/13, 08:54 am

silentparent wrote:
10sDad wrote:A lot of chatter about how we should complain, follow the process, etc.  Trouble is, it won't right the wrong, nor will it even make a difference.

Years ago, back in rec, there was a ref that had an issue with our coach at the time.  He would intentionally call things against our team (and not against the others), to the point that our girls were coming off the field bloody - just to try to get our coach riled up.  We complained.  NTX told us we were just sore losers (even though we won the game, and every other game that season).  After the second game, we complained again...nothing.  After the THIRD game, we complained again.  The assessor came out to FOURTH game, and they decided that in their infinite wisdom that the referee was a good referee - but that he should not ref any more of OUR games even though there was only one game remaining in the season and he was not scheduled to work it.  How's that for sweeping it under the rug?  Again...no accountability whatsoever.

The "process" is purposely inadequate, time consuming and laborious to make it impossible to actually affect change from the parent/team perspective.  And even if you dedicate your self to seeking change, none will happen, and your kid's safety will be put in danger week in and week out.  Soccer is infinitely much more fun to watch and play when you have quality refereeing.

Perhaps my personal problem is that I have seen quality refereeing, so I know it exists.  Which makes it harder for me to accept the incompetent ones.
Well part of the problem is that they see parents and teams as adversaries that are attacking them and their system, instead of as customers. They reflexively dismiss these claims as sore losers, dumb parents, whining coaches etc. many have been their positions too long and view it as personal fiefdom. The process is purposefully designed to be laborious and punitive so that no one will hold them accountable...
Well, in your case, they are correct at least 2/3 of the time... (oh no he didn't... affraid )

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Post by Shelby427 on 16/09/13, 09:08 am

bwgophers wrote:
silentparent wrote:
10sDad wrote:A lot of chatter about how we should complain, follow the process, etc.  Trouble is, it won't right the wrong, nor will it even make a difference.

Years ago, back in rec, there was a ref that had an issue with our coach at the time.  He would intentionally call things against our team (and not against the others), to the point that our girls were coming off the field bloody - just to try to get our coach riled up.  We complained.  NTX told us we were just sore losers (even though we won the game, and every other game that season).  After the second game, we complained again...nothing.  After the THIRD game, we complained again.  The assessor came out to FOURTH game, and they decided that in their infinite wisdom that the referee was a good referee - but that he should not ref any more of OUR games even though there was only one game remaining in the season and he was not scheduled to work it.  How's that for sweeping it under the rug?  Again...no accountability whatsoever.

The "process" is purposely inadequate, time consuming and laborious to make it impossible to actually affect change from the parent/team perspective.  And even if you dedicate your self to seeking change, none will happen, and your kid's safety will be put in danger week in and week out.  Soccer is infinitely much more fun to watch and play when you have quality refereeing.

Perhaps my personal problem is that I have seen quality refereeing, so I know it exists.  Which makes it harder for me to accept the incompetent ones.
Well part of the problem is that they see parents and teams as adversaries that are attacking them and their system, instead of as customers. They reflexively dismiss these claims as sore losers, dumb parents, whining coaches etc. many have been their positions too long and view it as personal fiefdom. The process is purposefully designed to be laborious and punitive so that no one will hold them accountable...
Well, in your case, they are correct at least 2/3 of the time... (oh no he didn't... affraid )
Agreed...

These are not pro level refs. They will make mistakes and they may hold grudges when coaches/parents personally attack them for making mistakes in games that don't have significant financial impact on anyone's lives.

Get over it.

The sooner you realize that arguing with refs and attacking them will never benefit you and may in fact "harm" you, you might decide to control ONLY what you can control and let it go.

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