Referees - I just don't get it...

No real games going on right now, so not a spilled milk post or anything here - I was just reflecting on past frustrations and some introspection.

We are bombarded with "don't yell at the refs" in articles, parents code of conducts, A&D, club contracts, elitist snobs...basically from every direction. And...a referee's job is NEVER without criticism when two opposing sides are in a competition. So, we have easily just established that this utopian fallicy will never exist. Yet...NTX referees, LHGCL and NTSSA are so quick to admonish and punish anyone (coach, parent, grandparent, out-of-town guest, family friend, etc.) if they say any disparaging word at all, either loud or just to their neighbor.

But...I have witnessed well over 500 select games over my years, and I STILL can't figure out why refs are so easily influenced by the sideline.

I have personally seen bad refs do the following:
- start calling fouls in favor of a team because their coach is complaining.
- start calling fouls against a team because their coach is complaining.
- start calling fouls against a team because their coach complimented the ref.
- stop calling fouls and looking to the parents sideline just to smile at the reaction.
- intentionally affect outcomes of games as retribution.
- call a game tighter against a particular team due to a previous incident.

I know referees can make mistakes - (I have seen one call offside on a throw and negate a game winning goal, seen many call PKs for a "dive", etc... ). And as a result, there is always gonna be someone who complains about it. Just like the Cowboy fans were upset and complained about the mystery play clock a few weeks ago. My point is that people will say things...and everybody is a critic of the ref, but expecting silence is just plain stupid...keep dreaming...get real.

Instead of getting stricter and stricter on the sidelines, educate the referees on how to be deaf to it. Give them earplugs or something...let them wear headphones...I don't care. Go to a pro game, and the stands are "boo"ing at loud decibels when they don't even know the rules - professional coaches go ballistic on the sideline...does that affect the professional referees? no. Why does it affect NTX referees so much? Justice is blind, and referees should be deaf.

I think the "parent education" angle is about beat to death - kinda like "smoking is bad for you"...people are still gonna smoke, and parents are still gonna yell sometimes. What is needed is more referee education on how to ignore the sideline, and not let it affect the integrity of the game, or the refereeing profession.

Just trying to find more info on the referees. This came up. When are they going to be held accountable? We had an injured girl and the ref wouldn't even call for a trainer. A parent had to run and get someone when our girl couldn't stand up and was disoriented. It was horrible

DMoo wrote:Just trying to find more info on the referees. This came up. When are they going to be held accountable? We had an injured girl and the ref wouldn't even call for a trainer. A parent had to run and get someone when our girl couldn't stand up and was disoriented. It was horrible

Presuming we are discussing the typical tournament or league game where there may or may not be a field marshall in the vicinity of the field and a trainer stationed somewhere at the facility.

It is not the referees' responsibility to call for a trainer in these venues.  It IS a responsibility to stop play for a serious injury and summon bench personnel onto the field to deal with a player that needs assistance.   (We usually do not have trainers/EMTs at the field like pro and international games.) Anyone - coach, manager, spectator, or may contact a field marshall to summon a trainer or personally solicit the trainer.  Does not mean that a ref won't call for a trainer or ask that a coach or parent do so.  Common sense applies.  If the player is at serious risk of loss of life or permanent injury, every ref I know will do whatever it takes to save her.  If DD is not breathing, you bet we are calling 9-1-1, asking for nurses, doctors, anyone who can help.   If DD has a fracture, you bet we are waiting for EMT's to deal with the player.

You did not say whether the ref crew recognized that the player was injured, whether she was on or off the field, or if the ref summoned the coach onto the field.

Here's a thought for you.... what if Referee's decided to stop refing the game due to the constant threats and badgering from parents, coaches and disrespectful players.....what then? Interesting thought. Would parents step up to be that middle man/woman to ref the game?

I say - let the refs do their job. It's all part of the sport that's been going on for many, many years. Bad calls, injury's (god forbid) and so on. No one wants kids to get hurt.

Otherwise - If you think you can do a better job.....suit up!!! I'm sure Referee organizations are always looking for talent. If you can do the job - as many parents think they can. Make it Official.

Well....Back to saving the world as we know it. Cheers.

10sDad,

I wrote this quite awile back, so I hope that it helps you from my perspective. I will try to answer some of the specifics of what you are asking after I copy/paste what I previously posted...

A "good ref" will be someone who can establish a rapport with the players BEFORE the match and explain how he runs the game. I usually gather the players around as well as the coach to lay out my expectations. It's EXTREMELY important to have the coach in on the instructions. I usually try to use humor both before and during the match. Before the match I will say something to the effect of, "I will use my voice a LOT during the game. I also don't want to hear any complaining about fouls, etc. You may not see me, but I might: not think there was a foul, or perhaps am playing advantage." I also ask them if there is a person on the team who has NO temper and they usually point out one guy/girl. I tell him/her, where everyone can hear that if he/she is seeing something that neither I nor my ARs am, then come up to me in a calm manner and let me know so I can be more aware of what to look for. I usually use an example for guys like, "If you see someone flirting with you or maybe pulling your ponytail, then just let me know."  They all get a laugh out of it and it really helps establish that rapport. Most importantly, the COACH knows how I will be conducting the game.

During the match, it is important to really be NEAR the play WITHOUT being involved in it. The worst part is having a longball played from the back to a forward that runs like a cheetah! I have to run like crazy, but that has paid off. One of the best compliments I received was from a U19 coach who said, "Great game ref. The thing I really liked about you was that you were around the play at all times." That actually meant a lot to me.

Using the style I have (loud voice to control the match, humor towards players, letting them know my expectations, etc.) has led me to give VERY few cards in all the years I have been reffing. I have NEVER had a fight break out when I was the Center (knock on wood)! LOL!

People need to understand that every ref has his/her own style. Some refs see a foul early in the game and immediately produce a card. Their style of thinking is that they need to set an early precedence of how he expects the game to be played. My problem with that is that if you start that way, you have to do it the ENTIRE match and to both sides. Plus, teams that hate each other or who are getting physical at the end of matches to try to get the win, will often be sent off or a fight will break out on occasion.

Other refs let a LOT go. Their mentality is to "just let the kids play". The problem with this is that quite a few of those same refs will talk very little during the match. This leads to angry parents, coaches and players. Also, it invites quick escalations of physicality which can often lead to fights. By the time the ref has to produce a card, the game is usually out of control.

What I haven't mentioned are the ARs. Having great ARs are really the key to having a good match. Even if you are the greatest Center in the NTX area, having horrible ARs can cause you a LOT of headaches. I always pray that I am teamed with good ARs when I am the Center.

To your specific statements: At the younger ages, you may tend to have ARs that are very young and are just trying to make a little extra money doing something they like. Now imagine that you are a young teen and a bunch of 35yo+ parents are screaming at you for a missed offside call, etc. You are taught at a young age to respect your elders, yet as a ref, you have ultimate authority. Many teens quit as well as adults because of this. If I have young ARs for some reason, I WILL NOT be tolerant of abusive parent behavior towards them. The first time I hear anything directed towards a teen AR, there will be a warning followed by a send off of the coach. It is his responsibility to keep his parents under control. If the parents persist after the coach goes, then I will stop the game and clear the parents completely. This has only happened once in over a decade for me.

Injuries require the referee to stop the game. However. he is not obliged to do so immediately if he feels that the injury is not serious enough to wait for a stoppage in play. This avoids potential time wasting. When the referee assess the problem, he determines if trainers need to enter the pitch. The player may have just taken a knock and can leave the pitch on her own accord. If she needs treatment, then the trainers are waived on to assess the injury. In either case, the player needs to exit the pitch as soon as possible for play to resume.

Everything else you mentioned about referees comes down to one single word: CONSISTENCY!

I was taught by a very good ref early on that success in reffing was all about consistency. He told me to either be consistently good or consistently bad. Either way is fair to all.  

I hope this helps.

They are humans like anyone else, and many have little to no leadership experience.  

The best ones who I happen to know off the pitch, have strong enough self confidence (real, not false bravado) and enough leadership skills to manage the players, coaches, and sidelines to a safe outcome w/o worrying about their feelings being hurt.

Totally agree it's all about consistency.
Went to Oklahoma a few weeks ago with my Boys tied 1 lost 2 close games left feeling the that it was the best set of refs I have had in a tourney. Primary reason consistency, and they spoke to the coaches and players before the game started. Controlled the game. We had 5 folks go down with injuries in the last game but wasn't the fault of ref it was the nature of the game and it happens. We all understand that calls will be missed a ref also has to understand that coaches and parents will react to missed calls. It's how the ref chooses to react that either makes the situation better or worse. Hats off to all the refs out there, I know its not easy. But as coach and ref says consistency is the key to make those sidelines better for all involved.

Coach&Ref wrote:10sDad,

I wrote this quite awile back, so I hope that it helps you from my perspective. I will try to answer some of the specifics of what you are asking after I copy/paste what I previously posted...

A "good ref" will be someone who can establish a rapport with the players BEFORE the match and explain how he runs the game. I usually gather the players around as well as the coach to lay out my expectations. It's EXTREMELY important to have the coach in on the instructions. I usually try to use humor both before and during the match. Before the match I will say something to the effect of, "I will use my voice a LOT during the game. I also don't want to hear any complaining about fouls, etc. You may not see me, but I might: not think there was a foul, or perhaps am playing advantage." I also ask them if there is a person on the team who has NO temper and they usually point out one guy/girl. I tell him/her, where everyone can hear that if he/she is seeing something that neither I nor my ARs am, then come up to me in a calm manner and let me know so I can be more aware of what to look for. I usually use an example for guys like, "If you see someone flirting with you or maybe pulling your ponytail, then just let me know."  They all get a laugh out of it and it really helps establish that rapport. Most importantly, the COACH knows how I will be conducting the game.

During the match, it is important to really be NEAR the play WITHOUT being involved in it. The worst part is having a longball played from the back to a forward that runs like a cheetah! I have to run like crazy, but that has paid off. One of the best compliments I received was from a U19 coach who said, "Great game ref. The thing I really liked about you was that you were around the play at all times." That actually meant a lot to me.

Using the style I have (loud voice to control the match, humor towards players, letting them know my expectations, etc.) has led me to give VERY few cards in all the years I have been reffing. I have NEVER had a fight break out when I was the Center (knock on wood)! LOL!

People need to understand that every ref has his/her own style. Some refs see a foul early in the game and immediately produce a card. Their style of thinking is that they need to set an early precedence of how he expects the game to be played. My problem with that is that if you start that way, you have to do it the ENTIRE match and to both sides. Plus, teams that hate each other or who are getting physical at the end of matches to try to get the win, will often be sent off or a fight will break out on occasion.

Other refs let a LOT go. Their mentality is to "just let the kids play". The problem with this is that quite a few of those same refs will talk very little during the match. This leads to angry parents, coaches and players. Also, it invites quick escalations of physicality which can often lead to fights. By the time the ref has to produce a card, the game is usually out of control.

What I haven't mentioned are the ARs. Having great ARs are really the key to having a good match. Even if you are the greatest Center in the NTX area, having horrible ARs can cause you a LOT of headaches. I always pray that I am teamed with good ARs when I am the Center.

To your specific statements: At the younger ages, you may tend to have ARs that are very young and are just trying to make a little extra money doing something they like. Now imagine that you are a young teen and a bunch of 35yo+ parents are screaming at you for a missed offside call, etc. You are taught at a young age to respect your elders, yet as a ref, you have ultimate authority. Many teens quit as well as adults because of this. If I have young ARs for some reason, I WILL NOT be tolerant of abusive parent behavior towards them. The first time I hear anything directed towards a teen AR, there will be a warning followed by a send off of the coach. It is his responsibility to keep his parents under control. If the parents persist after the coach goes, then I will stop the game and clear the parents completely. This has only happened once in over a decade for me.

Injuries require the referee to stop the game. However. he is not obliged to do so immediately if he feels that the injury is not serious enough to wait for a stoppage in play. This avoids potential time wasting. When the referee assess the problem, he determines if trainers need to enter the pitch. The player may have just taken a knock and can leave the pitch on her own accord. If she needs treatment, then the trainers are waived on to assess the injury. In either case, the player needs to exit the pitch as soon as possible for play to resume.

Everything else you mentioned about referees comes down to one single word: CONSISTENCY!

I was taught by a very good ref early on that success in reffing was all about consistency. He told me to either be consistently good or consistently bad. Either way is fair to all.  

I hope this helps.

I can tell you our coach stopped the game it was so bad. We didn't finish playing. That has never happened before in 5 years that we have been playing with this group of girls. It was bad.

Our girls are older. No we don't act like a bunch of wild parents. Our parents choose not to be that way. Our girls can not stand it so it doesn't happen. Yes we even cheer the other goalie when a great save happens. Refs need to get a grip on the game before it gets out of control. When girls go flying 5 feet and it's ok then it just progresses. I would rather them call everything then nothing and avoid serious injury. You can bash parents but it's true. We have had girls laying on the ground rolling in pain and the ref refuses to stop play. We do not have floppers on our team either. They have been taught to focus on the ball not the player. Parents are expected to behave in our group. Refs need to be held to some standard.

My point is that there are too many referees that pay more attention to the sideline than the game...and love to fight.  

When a referee makes an obvious mistake (they are human), they are gonna get a comment from the sideline...guaranteed.  What happens next is up to the referee...they can choose to just be oblivious to it, or they can escalate the issue with the sideline.  Too many choose to escalate it or worse yet, intentionally get the sideline worked up - which ends up in someone being thrown out due to zero tolerance.  

They keep track of sideline people that get thrown out.  Do they ever think to draw the correlation to certain referees?  If a particular referee seems to be throwing out a lot of spectators, is it necessarily the spectator's fault, or is this referee causing the issue?  

Two scenarios to consider - think about these and think about what would be going through your head and if you might verbalize some dissent toward the ref:
- Your team is playing against a less skilled team.  The other team has decided that in order to beat you, they must play more physical.  Being unskilled, they play very dangerously, and your team is getting beat up.  Your players have become tired of the incessant abuse, as the referee isn't calling anything.  Your team starts retaliating (as kids do), and still the referee is not calling anything.  Players are now getting injured.  Do you tell the ref to call it tighter?
- Your team is playing against a team that preaches "flopping" as a strategy.  After the referee awards a 2nd PK for another obvious flop in the box, your team is losing 2-1.   The "flopping" team is giggling behind the back of the ref everytime a teammate of theirs is in "agonizing pain".  Do you say something to the ref?  Flopping (simulation) is against the LOTG, so it is essentially cheating, right?

In both of those situations, its almost impossible for anyone to keep their mouth shut.  But should they be thrown out for saying something?

10sDad: IMHO, The coach should be handling the relationship with the Ref. Parents are there in support of team and child (in most cases). IMHO, your scenarios, while totally frustrating, are not for the parent sidelines to public draw attention to. (besides, human nature usually means the calls will get worse for the loudest and most obnoxious). Every league has feedback/evaluation programs. Manager and Coach should be taking input, sort thru the chaffe, and submit substantive and constructive feedback. I love the fact that our team (players) does not interact with the referees. Most times, we are pretty shocked at the U-13 Players from other teams interaction with the refs. (it's usually pretty emotional and disrespectful).

I've been involved with soccer since my 96 came through, I was a 3 sport athlete in High school, wrestled for the Air force  and played Baseball at Utah Tech. My challenge with the officials  in soccer has always been, Call the fouls and give out the cards. I don't care age they are, that's how you learn. I don't think the ref's should be able to dictate a game. The 1st thing should always be the safety of the kids! CALL THE FOULS PERIOD!!!!

Preach it 10sDad. I don't understand why refs won't just ignore me yelling and ref. They act like they have some point to prove by admonishing you on the sideline or they are going to enforce their authority. Give me a break. Quit wearing your feelings on your sleeve ignore the sideline and ref as you see it.

Sheets, maybe you'd draw less attention to yourself if you just quit wearing those bright $!?'d shoes!

So, calls get worse for those that say anything about an injustice - and your advice is to keep stone cold quiet and let the injustice continue. You would do well in the DPRK.

I assume that if your kid was being bullied at recess, that you would not say anything because the recess monitors are volunteer, and unless you want to volunteer, you shouldn't complain about the lack of supervision...OR...if you see a kid being bullied, you would just keep your mouth shut and file substantive and constructive feedback and wait patiently for a response? Before you go off on me - I know bullying is a whole different deal...but as a society, we want to immediately put a stop to an injustice by saying something instead of waiting for it to escalate to physical violence.

I am not in anyway advocating being abusive to referees...lets be clear. My position is that a bad call will get a reaction from the parents (human nature), and too many referees are such egomaniacs that they want to fight anyone that verbalizes any sort of disagreement with any call they make/don't make. If there is a parent that is out of control, abusive, obnoxious, cursing, etc...sure, get rid of 'em. But whenever a referee makes a controversial call, they should just know to ignore the sideline for the next 30 seconds or so because they know there is going to be at least one person that isn't going to like the call...

soccerdad1969 wrote:Sheets, maybe you'd draw less attention to yourself if you just quit wearing those bright $!?'d shoes!

Those are like a wild animal radio tracking tag, so my wife can always find me.

I can tell you one of our dads is a ref....even he was like...wth... anyway. Nothing will ever change. Maybe if they payed the refs more they would care more. Some are clearly working too many games in a row to care. And yes, inexperienced teams feel the need to hurt and not play the ball. In that case, start carding. Get them off the field or they will never learn. Shame on coaches too that permit that. I try to encourage my child to play that ball. Anything else only hurts the team.

10sDad wrote:My point is that there are too many referees that pay more attention to the sideline than the game...and love to fight.  

When a referee makes an obvious mistake (they are human), they are gonna get a comment from the sideline...guaranteed.  What happens next is up to the referee...they can choose to just be oblivious to it, or they can escalate the issue with the sideline.  Too many choose to escalate it or worse yet, intentionally get the sideline worked up - which ends up in someone being thrown out due to zero tolerance.  

They keep track of sideline people that get thrown out.  Do they ever think to draw the correlation to certain referees?  If a particular referee seems to be throwing out a lot of spectators, is it necessarily the spectator's fault, or is this referee causing the issue?  

Two scenarios to consider - think about these and think about what would be going through your head and if you might verbalize some dissent toward the ref:
- Your team is playing against a less skilled team.  The other team has decided that in order to beat you, they must play more physical.  Being unskilled, they play very dangerously, and your team is getting beat up.  Your players have become tired of the incessant abuse, as the referee isn't calling anything.  Your team starts retaliating (as kids do), and still the referee is not calling anything.  Players are now getting injured.  Do you tell the ref to call it tighter?
- Your team is playing against a team that preaches "flopping" as a strategy.  After the referee awards a 2nd PK for another obvious flop in the box, your team is losing 2-1.   The "flopping" team is giggling behind the back of the ref everytime a teammate of theirs is in "agonizing pain".  Do you say something to the ref?  Flopping (simulation) is against the LOTG, so it is essentially cheating, right?

In both of those situations, its almost impossible for anyone to keep their mouth shut.  But should they be thrown out for saying something?

Any ref who is paying attention to the sideline and trying to pick out certain people to send off is DEFINITELY not paying attention to the game. This is why I don't even try. I just let the coach know that HE is gone if I hear anything else from his parents. I don't even acknowledge them. The only time I do acknowledge the sidelines, is if I signal the wrong direction for a foul by accident and then realize it before play starts. I hear it from the crowd, but have already realized the mistake myself and signal the proper way. I'll raise my hand to the crowd as to say, "I got it. My bad." This isn't being influenced by the crowd, but it may seem so. I knew I got it wrong, regardless of the reaction, so I fixed it.

As far as "flopping" goes, I have never been fooled by it. I have rarely had girls try this, but SOME boys do try it. I usually only have to have a quick conversation with the diver, indicating that if it happens again, they will be booked for simulation. I remember telling one boy after he tried it twice, that I thought it was a shame that he was acting that way since he was a very good player. He didn't try it the rest of the game. Diving can backfire on a player in a BIG way! Look at Suarez of Liverpool. He has such a bad reputation for diving, that professional refs seem to just not care about him BECAUSE of his reputation. He has actually been rightly taken down this season that would warrant PKs, but dives so often, that professional refs seem to just not care about him BECAUSE of his reputation.

Player escalation due to frustration hasn't really been a problem for me. Once I have explained my expectations before the game, then any escalations will start warranting cards. Since those happens rarely with me, players and parents get the clue that now I won't tolerate it.

I can't stress enough how much rapport helps with the players. A lot of times, before kickoff, or if I'm waiting to start a game, I might see one of the kids (especially older boys) with a pair of expensive shoes and joke with him, saying this like, "Man, those shoes better be worth at LEAST three goals today! If you don't, then you don't deserve them and need to take them back." Usually, I will get a comment like, "I'll get at least one just for you today, ref!" One kid was wearing a long sleeve shirt on a 90 degree day, I made some funny comment towards him and his teammates starting laughing at him. I'll have a kid smash a ball into the parking lot and will tell him while I'm smiling, "This is why I don't park near the fields, just for kids like you!". I've overheard a coach telling his striker to hit the ball high at the goal while shooting. Invariably, he hit it over a couple of times. As he was running back, I told him, "Hey, nobody has ever missed by shooting too LOW! He got a kick out of that.

Letting the players know that you are personable and will listen to them as long as they approach you in a respectful manner, Also, informing them that when they hear your voice, to keep playing (especially since a LOT of refs don't use the advantage rule correctly), and your general expectations, seems to go a LONG way, in my experience.

Just call the fouls! I don't care if you are a comic!!!

C&R - I hear a lot of "I" in that post. And I am willing to bet that "you" rarely have to toss a spectator...true?

so this post is getting way out there.. I just want someone to take control. My own kid, as a player, ignores the other teams parents and focuses on the game. I don't want to hear excuses from a grown ref that can't do the same. Either way, they need to maintain control of the game. Card if you have to. I would rather that then end up in the ER. Attitudes aside the kids are more important than hurt feelings.

turftoe9 wrote:Just call the fouls! I don't care if you are a comic!!!

I could not agree with this more.  That is all I ask too.  Please call the fouls.  The wrecking ball enforcer is part of the game but if she steps out of line, plays the body instead of the ball, and shows after a couple of incidents that she is more interested in hurting someone, then she needs to be controlled.  Call some fouls, issue a card.  If it continues, she's gone.  

I know you meatheads who like to be tough on here are going to say that it is part of soccer and that my DD needs to be tougher and be able to handle the enforcer.  But the way I see it is that you are actually depriving your daughter of a good soccer career by encouraging her to run through girls rather than learn the game, develop and use skills and get better.  She won't last.

TatonkaBurger wrote:

turftoe9 wrote:Just call the fouls! I don't care if you are a comic!!!

She won't last.

are you sure...you've seen high school and college girls soccer right?

j/k...i agree with you completely

blo the friggin whistle

10sDad wrote:C&R - I hear a lot of "I" in that post.  And I am willing to bet that "you" rarely have to toss a spectator...true?  

Correct. I haven't had out-of-control parents in a long time. I will say this though; parents seem to get calmer and more quiet the older the age groups get. That is a generality, but it is one that I have found to be true in my opinion.

turftoe9 wrote:Just call the fouls! I don't care if you are a comic!!!

This comes from a person who obviously doesn't understand the concept of ADVANTAGE. There are fouls in games I call, like any other games, but that DON'T require play to be STOPPED. This is why I use my voice and appropriate hand signal to indicate I am playing advantage.

This brings me to an incident that mirrors exactly what you and a couple of other people are saying about "blowing the friggin whistle!"

I had a u16 boys game once. An attacker entered the penalty area from the a diagonal with two defenders on him. One slid and took him out without getting the ball. I waited a couple of seconds because I saw a teammate sprinting in from right outside the box. He ran in and buried the ball. The coach was screaming for a PK the moment he saw the first kid getting taken down.

I awarded the goal and then strolled over to the coach and said, "Would you rather have the goal or the PK?" He shut his mouth after that as well as his parents.

Often, using advantage properly is MUCH better than constantly stopping the game, especially on breakaways.

Watch the pros and see what I am talking about.