long ball - may not be pretty but it works!

Lawnboy wrote:

Cmon_Man wrote:

go99 wrote:ok wait are we talking about pro or youth soccer?  In pro soccer the style that is best is the one that wins you the game.  it is a zero sum game and nothing else matters but wins.  Win pretty with style, win ugly,  Kickball it all game, get stuck in and beat the other team up,  hell park the bus if you need too just win.  For kids it's a whole different thing

Agreed Anarchy kind of mixed the together so I was basically trying to explain that the pros can play possession style - even if the strategy/ team dictates a more dump and run approach vs. what I call a kick ball team which do not have the skill/experience to play possession style soccer.  That is why for me I have placed my dd with a coach that demands possession style, but my favorite pro teams tend to play more direct with big crosses and "run and shoot" style- but I would not have my daughter in a system like that for youth development

So just curious... at what age does it become appropriate for a kid to try to connect a deep pass.  Like all skills, if it is not attempted from time to time, it will never develop.  There is nothing wrong with trying to play a direct, long ball if that is what the situation calls for.  Like all sports, the better teams know when to apply what tactic.

And I love the obligatory references to Barca whenever someone is championing "possession" style over direct play.  The reality is (and I've posted numerous clips on here over the past few years showing it) Barca is fantastic at quick deep booming counters and long, slanted through-balls.  They're even very excellent with the over-the-top "dump-and-run" to Messi.  All the types of play that people get on here and slam are exactly the tactics Barca uses to put away a game.  Possession does one thing - it burns clock and keeps your opponent from scoring.  Which is great and should be utilized to your advantage.  But at some point, if you want to win the game, you have to put the ball in the net.  And if you're playing against any kind of competent defense at all, that usually means you are going to have to attack with some kind of speed into space - which usually involves a pass to someone further up the field.

All good teams are balanced in this respect and can play whatever style the situation calls for.  And kids don't have to be 17 to start learning this.

I agree with Lawnboy here, learning the game is also knowing when to make those attacking passes (whether they are 40 yards or 10 yards). If the coach is screaming "kick it!" every time there is even remote pressure, you have a kickball coach. If the coach is teaching them to relieve pressure with support (backwards and forwards), and demands that the longer passes forward are either to feet or into a winnable space for the forward, you are in a more possession style. Best way to tell...watch your team against a team that is equal or greater than you and see how coach reacts. You should see some short passes to create lanes for longer passes).

Lawnboy wrote:

Cmon_Man wrote:

go99 wrote:ok wait are we talking about pro or youth soccer?  In pro soccer the style that is best is the one that wins you the game.  it is a zero sum game and nothing else matters but wins.  Win pretty with style, win ugly,  Kickball it all game, get stuck in and beat the other team up,  hell park the bus if you need too just win.  For kids it's a whole different thing

Agreed Anarchy kind of mixed the together so I was basically trying to explain that the pros can play possession style - even if the strategy/ team dictates a more dump and run approach vs. what I call a kick ball team which do not have the skill/experience to play possession style soccer.  That is why for me I have placed my dd with a coach that demands possession style, but my favorite pro teams tend to play more direct with big crosses and "run and shoot" style- but I would not have my daughter in a system like that for youth development

So just curious... at what age does it become appropriate for a kid to try to connect a deep pass.  Like all skills, if it is not attempted from time to time, it will never develop.  There is nothing wrong with trying to play a direct, long ball if that is what the situation calls for.  Like all sports, the better teams know when to apply what tactic.

And I love the obligatory references to Barca whenever someone is championing "possession" style over direct play.  The reality is (and I've posted numerous clips on here over the past few years showing it) Barca is fantastic at quick deep booming counters and long, slanted through-balls.  They're even very excellent with the over-the-top "dump-and-run" to Messi.  All the types of play that people get on here and slam are exactly the tactics Barca uses to put away a game.  Possession does one thing - it burns clock and keeps your opponent from scoring.  Which is great and should be utilized to your advantage.  But at some point, if you want to win the game, you have to put the ball in the net.  And if you're playing against any kind of competent defense at all, that usually means you are going to have to attack with some kind of speed into space - which usually involves a pass to someone further up the field.

All good teams are balanced in this respect and can play whatever style the situation calls for.  And kids don't have to be 17 to start learning this.

Sorry can't go along with much of this.

For starters pro possession based teams like Barca, Swansea, German NT, etc. do play long passes when the situation calls for it. But that's just it, they're passes, usually to feet, and to a player in space who has been seen by a teammate with their head up. It's clear to all involved a long PASS has been attempted, and the recipient typically has the technical ability to bring it down in 1 touch.

That is a far cry from the long-ball hyper direct jungle ball where a player has minimal pressure, head down and boots the crap out of it hard as he/she can in the general direction of a higher up teammate who is often in a crowd of defenders and a resulting battle royale breaks out for who is going to win it.

Those are not passes, and you rarely find a youth team routinely playing that style that can also play any other way. Sure you might find a one off you tube clip showing Barcelona doing it in an exception event, but watch any 15 Barca full games in a row, and I doubt you'll need 5 fingers to count how many times it happens. To suggest Barca commonly uses "dump and run" over the top to 5'6" Messi is....Bul....I mean laughable.

to suggest that what we see here is tactical long ball is also a joke. It's kick the hell out of the ball "that way" and the fight for it. Use somebody either faster or bigger and stronger so I win more of those balls. If it makes you feel better about your team and coach then by all means go for it. But we all know what kickball is and when we see it.

It's tactical to play the long ball on kickoff to begin the game or half. Having your central defenders drop the ball on the opposing central defenders on the kickoff is common at higher levels. You put immediate pressure on the opposition in their own defensive 1/3 of the field. The best teams are ones that can play both short and long as the situation warrants.

soccer4life wrote:It's tactical to play the long ball on kickoff to begin the game or half.  Having your central defenders drop the ball on the opposing central defenders on the kickoff is common at higher levels.  You put immediate pressure on the opposition in their own defensive 1/3 of the field.  The best teams are ones that can play both short and long as the situation warrants.

What this team did on the kickoff is novel...but a gimmick. There were two defenders home and one holding in mid, and the rest of the team crashed the 18. You could do it maybe once a season and get away with it, but if you tried that even twice in the same game a good coach is going to eat your lunch on the counter.

And what "higher level"  are you talking about? Pro leagues I watch aren't kicking the crap out of the ball to opposing centerbacks on kickoff.

I agree with you the best teams can play short and long as required. But it's not about short or long, it's about possession.

The best teams keep the ball in all three thirds. They may play short, long, wide, central, forward, backward...doesn't matter. Whatever they do, they do it with purpose, and typically retain possession at higher percentages than their opponents.

This makes them more dangerous in attacking third, and much more difficult to press in their own half.  It's only been maybe in the last year that teams even dared pressing barca in their first two thirds for fear of getting shredded on the back end.  Guess they were concerned messi is such a beast @ out running ctr backs to long balls over the top.  

We can spin this any way we want, but if a team routinely solves pressure with a swift boot up the field to no one in particular, that is not a possession style.  Yes, some possession teams are more direct than others, i.e. Madrid is more direct than Barca, but both teams effectively keep the ball in all three thirds, and most would agree both are possession teams.

A very small # of youth teams in NTX are doing this...but at youth levels the ratio should be flipped and a possession style more prevalent than any other.

4-3-3 wrote:

soccer4life wrote:It's tactical to play the long ball on kickoff to begin the game or half.  Having your central defenders drop the ball on the opposing central defenders on the kickoff is common at higher levels.  You put immediate pressure on the opposition in their own defensive 1/3 of the field.  The best teams are ones that can play both short and long as the situation warrants.

What this team did on the kickoff is novel...but a gimmick. There were two defenders home and one holding in mid, and the rest of the team crashed the 18. You could do it maybe once a season and get away with it, but if you tried that even twice in the same game a good coach is going to eat your lunch on the counter.

And what "higher level"  are you talking about? Pro leagues I watch aren't kicking the crap out of the ball to opposing centerbacks on kickoff.

I agree with you the best teams can play short and long as required. But it's not about short or long, it's about possession.

The best teams keep the ball in all three thirds. They may play short, long, wide, central, forward, backward...doesn't matter. Whatever they do, they do it with purpose, and typically retain possession at higher percentages than their opponents.

This makes them more dangerous in attacking third, and much more difficult to press in their own half.  It's only been maybe in the last year that teams even dared pressing barca in their first two thirds for fear of getting shredded on the back end.  Guess they were concerned messi is such a beast @ out running ctr backs to long balls over the top.  

We can spin this any way we want, but if a team routinely solves pressure with a swift boot up the field to no one in particular, that is not a possession style.  Yes, some possession teams are more direct than others, i.e. Madrid is more direct than Barca, but both teams effectively keep the ball in all three thirds, and most would agree both are possession teams.

A very small # of youth teams in NTX are doing this...but at youth levels the ratio should be flipped and a possession style more prevalent than any other.

Well, one hopes you only kick the ball off once a game. I'm all about possession soccer but that was not just kicking the crap out of the ball. That was a designed play much like a set piece off a free kick or corner kick.
You are correct, possession teams want to possess the ball in all 1/3's of the field. They will move forward, backward, and laterally with the ball. I learned a long time ago if you keep the ball the other team can't score. The other team also gets tired chasing the ball and frustrated as well in most cases.
You might not see it used by Barca or Madrid, but it is a tactic or designed play used in leagues across the world. It's used to implement a high pressure style from the start of a game or half. Not all teams do it, but it does happen.
I assure you the guy wasn't just booting the ball up the field. It was a tactical decision discussed in the dressing room before the game.

soccer4life wrote:
Well, one hopes you only kick the ball off once a game.  I'm all about possession soccer but that was not just kicking the crap out of the ball.  That was a designed play much like a set piece off a free kick or corner kick.  
You are correct, possession teams want to possess the ball in all 1/3's of the field.  They will move forward, backward, and laterally with the ball.  I learned a long time ago if you keep the ball the other team can't score.  The other team also gets tired chasing the ball and frustrated as well in most cases.
You might not see it used by Barca or Madrid, but it is a tactic or designed play used in leagues  across the world. It's used to implement a high pressure style from the start of a game or half.  Not all teams do it, but it does happen.  
I assure you the guy wasn't just booting the ball up the field.  It was a tactical decision discussed in the dressing room before the game.

I don't know what's worse. That I'm actually debating this (again), or that you guys are truly acting as if this is some kind of legitimate approach you'd enjoy seeing your DD's coach spend practice time teaching.  

Yeah it's a tactic, and they obviously practiced it. But it's meaningless, and maybe a tad higher percentage than the equally meaningless gimmick of running up shooting on goal direct from kickoff. Might work one in 50 tries, or less...but if you notice your team's offensive approach during run of play usually resembles these dudes' kickoff, don't try to massage it and claim it's some sort of tactical soccer. It's jungle ball. Boot it, chase, and hope we out run, or better yet run through the defenders till we somehow get it in the goal. Youth teams doing this get very good at taming the jungle, but learn jack squat about how to play the game any other way.

Look I don't even like barca, and I grew tired of tiki-taka years ago. But let's be practical about it. This stoke city crap isn't the future of either the men's or women's game, so what's the point being content with our kiddos becoming experts at it.

That was great!! LOL

It's definitely not a style of play I endorse. It's nothing more than a set piece opportunity off the kickoff. The most important part of the game is the first 5 minutes of each half, the last 5 minutes of each half, and the 5 minutes after a goal is scored. You immediately put the other team under pressure in their defensive 1/3. Have you ever scored in the first 5 minutes of the game or been scored on in the first 5 minutes and thought we or they weren't ready to play? The video is just an opportunity to expose that weakness.
If you watched the rest of the game, I doubt they booted the ball forward everytime. Maybe the title of the thread is incorrect. To me, it's not really a demonstration of long ball in the Stoke City mold. It's a set piece opportunity to begin a game or half to attempt to catch the other team daydreaming.
If my dd's coach used this approach as a style of play, I'd run as fast as I could the opposite direction. The video is not a style of play IMO it's a demonstration of a set play from the kickoff.

if you cant go through them... go over them!

Exactly! All that matters is the goal!

People that worship at the alter of possession often fail to admit that possession doesn't win games - it can lesson your odds of losing games, but even then, you have to give up the ball at some point.  Thats when a highly skilled, athletic deep-playing team can punish you because your entire team has pushed up field to play tiki-taka around the opponent's box.

Last year's Champions League semi-finals were very insightful in this regard.  Particularly the Barca vs. Bayern matchup, where the anointed kings of possession had their heads handed to them 7-0 in the aggregate:

Barcelona vs. Bayern Munich - Leg 1
see stats here: http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000350/match=2009609/index.html

Stat	Barcelona	Bayern
Possession	63%	37%
Score	0	4

Barcelona vs. Bayern Munich - Leg 2
see stats here: http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000350/match=2009610/index.html

Stat	Barcelona	Bayern
Possession	57%	43%
Score	0	3

Real Madrid had a similar experience against their German opponents (Dortmund) in the first leg, but fared better in the second.  They still lost 4-3 in the aggregate.  The athletic, balanced style of the Germans last year was very impressive.

Bayern is/was a possession team. Actually the two most dominant possession teams, barca and bayern, made it to last year's UCL semi finals. Barca avg nearly 70% against other opponents and Bayern avg nearly 60%. Bayern just chose to let Barca have possession as a tactic, and exposed their pitiful back line.

Bayern's style is not tiki-taka, but it's hardly stoke city dump and chase either. It's still a technical style. They can knock it around, or be direct when it's time to break through, but the common demoninator? Everyone on the pitch is gifted technically.

Personally, I'd rather watch the new-age german style than tiki-taka any day of the week, but both styles are in a different stratosphere from what most of our youth teams are doing week in week out.

good4nuthin wrote:

Possession is just dumb when you have at least one big leg and one fast kid. I am glad others on this board finally see the light.

...best tell Barcelona and Spain that....they don't seem to have got the message...