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Post by Packrabbit 26/11/13, 11:40 pm

The "better players were on the losing team" theory is simply ridiculous, regardless of the empirical data. That theory cannot be applied to any other sport, business, battlefield or even in nature, but its somehow applicable in NTX soccer?  It comes down to competition, or in NTX's past case, a lack of it. Better competition usually makes a better product.  

The scholarship process for girls graduating today started back in U-15, so it shouldn't be surprising that players' teams, that started winning recently, aren't getting recognized.  These coaches are giving out substantial financial commitments, and it would make sense to go with the player that you have known and followed for 2 or 3 years, as opposed to a recently "discovered" player.

While theres been a lot written here about "watered down" competition the past 4 or 5 years, I see the same past 4-5 years as NTX soccer beginning the process of becoming competitive. I think everyone would agree that there is much more choice for "higher level" girls soccer today than 5 years ago. NTX soccer wasn't getting better because clubs back then, didn't have to get better at retaining coaches and players. The past 5 year proliferation of more soccer clubs and teams has expanded the coaching and player populations. Clubs have to take care of their best coaches; coaches have to develop better players to win; players have to keep improving to keep their spots.

Those S.Cal teams have been playing tough local competition for a lot of years and been reaping the deserved rewards; NTX has just started to face better, expanded local competition in the past 5 years and we are starting to see the results. Those S. Cal fans can comfort themselves with the scholarship story today, but winning matches can't be explained away and will (eventually) be recognized.

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Post by dfeetersarethebomb 27/11/13, 08:49 am

' Those S. Cal fans can comfort themselves with the scholarship story today, but winning matches can't be explained away and will (eventually) be recognized.'

What does this mean?
The S Cal teams will stop getting scholarships and will stop winning? No one has the fast track or secret in getting better while the others stagnate. I think the winning part is already known - look at most major tournaments on both girls/boys sides. North Texas gets a few in there every now and then.

Given NT training is LA-based, one would expect some bias toward players they can see weekly - that's a no-brainer, but, given some players come from small states, they obviously don't pass on good players when found.

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Post by dadof3 27/11/13, 09:21 am

dfeetersarethebomb wrote:' Those S. Cal fans can comfort themselves with the scholarship story today, but winning matches can't be explained away and will (eventually) be recognized.'

What does this mean?
The S Cal teams will stop getting scholarships and will stop winning? No one has the fast track or secret in getting better while the others stagnate. I think the winning part is already known - look at most major tournaments on both girls/boys sides. North Texas gets a few in there every now and then.

Given NT training is LA-based, one would expect some bias toward players they can see weekly - that's a no-brainer, but, given some players come from small states, they obviously don't pass on good players when found.
I think what Rabbit is saying is that NTX teams' proliferation, and the number of teams and the amount of success won't be ignored for long. SoCal teams can't look backwards if NTX teams keep finding a way to win.
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Post by Uncle Numanga 27/11/13, 09:39 am

DrSoccer wrote:The point is basically moot, something is wrong with the way our kids are learning soccer in NTX. Yes Our teams can WIN trophies, titles, national championships, but very few (15?) of our girls are highly sought after.We can discuss it all we want but the college coaches are the only judge that matters right? What do they think? After 8-11yrs with our clubs what are Bell, Petruc, Marci, Stone, etc.... telling us that our club coaches won't? That list of NTX 2014s that DDad posted looks pretty impressive right? Now Lets look at the whole picture...

In 2014 TCU is committed to - 3 cal girls, 2 colo, 1 ntx? Why would Bell/Hig want 3 cal girls with all the great girls around here? What about Petruc.  at SMU? What does that coach think? Surely he has scouted the talent in his backyard. SMU 2014- 3 Cal,  slammers, slammers, san juan spirit, Stx, Stx? He has 7 NTX players on the team that went 3-5-1 in the AAC hardly a top 5 league. Surely Baylor would be loading up on NTX girls, right? BAYLOR 2014- Cal, Cal, Cal, NTX, Kansas. Damn how many Cal girls are there? Tech 2014 Cal, Cal, STX, NTX

So for 2014 TCU,SMU,TECH,Baylor = 11 Cal, 3 NTX. Keep in mind the top 100 Cal girls go to ucla, Stanford, USC, Santa Clara, San Diego, Pepperdine, etc.... so the locals are picking up the leftovers from cal, not the top.

It seems like the locals are telling us that they would rather give the #100 girl from cal a 100% scholarship than the #20 player from here.  Didn't someone tell them that our #4 team from NTX beat the #1 team from Cali?  I mean Tech is taking 1 girl from FRAM (cali), and Camarillo those teams would be D2 or D3 here, what is Stone thinking? Or what are these coaches really telling us?
The coaches are telling us that the NTX 2014 class isn't worth recruiting. Look at the previous year and you will see that the majority are NTX players.
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Post by 007shaken 27/11/13, 09:49 am

Petrucellis Cali bias worked wonders at Texas Rolling Eyes 
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Post by Gunners 27/11/13, 10:49 am

Uncle Numanga wrote:
DrSoccer wrote:The point is basically moot, something is wrong with the way our kids are learning soccer in NTX. Yes Our teams can WIN trophies, titles, national championships, but very few (15?) of our girls are highly sought after.We can discuss it all we want but the college coaches are the only judge that matters right? What do they think? After 8-11yrs with our clubs what are Bell, Petruc, Marci, Stone, etc.... telling us that our club coaches won't? That list of NTX 2014s that DDad posted looks pretty impressive right? Now Lets look at the whole picture...

In 2014 TCU is committed to - 3 cal girls, 2 colo, 1 ntx? Why would Bell/Hig want 3 cal girls with all the great girls around here? What about Petruc.  at SMU? What does that coach think? Surely he has scouted the talent in his backyard. SMU 2014- 3 Cal,  slammers, slammers, san juan spirit, Stx, Stx? He has 7 NTX players on the team that went 3-5-1 in the AAC hardly a top 5 league. Surely Baylor would be loading up on NTX girls, right? BAYLOR 2014- Cal, Cal, Cal, NTX, Kansas. Damn how many Cal girls are there? Tech 2014 Cal, Cal, STX, NTX

So for 2014 TCU,SMU,TECH,Baylor = 11 Cal, 3 NTX. Keep in mind the top 100 Cal girls go to ucla, Stanford, USC, Santa Clara, San Diego, Pepperdine, etc.... so the locals are picking up the leftovers from cal, not the top.

It seems like the locals are telling us that they would rather give the #100 girl from cal a 100% scholarship than the #20 player from here.  Didn't someone tell them that our #4 team from NTX beat the #1 team from Cali?  I mean Tech is taking 1 girl from FRAM (cali), and Camarillo those teams would be D2 or D3 here, what is Stone thinking? Or what are these coaches really telling us?
The coaches are telling us that the NTX 2014 class isn't worth recruiting.  Look at the previous year and you will see that the majority are NTX players.
Certainly not the first time this opinion has been mentioned over the years. Although, the fact that a '96 NTX team has played in the national championship game three of the last four years should, at least, make one question the validity of that opinion.

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Post by socrocks 27/11/13, 05:21 pm

Uncle Numanga wrote:
DrSoccer wrote:The point is basically moot, something is wrong with the way our kids are learning soccer in NTX. Yes Our teams can WIN trophies, titles, national championships, but very few (15?) of our girls are highly sought after.We can discuss it all we want but the college coaches are the only judge that matters right? What do they think? After 8-11yrs with our clubs what are Bell, Petruc, Marci, Stone, etc.... telling us that our club coaches won't? That list of NTX 2014s that DDad posted looks pretty impressive right? Now Lets look at the whole picture...

In 2014 TCU is committed to - 3 cal girls, 2 colo, 1 ntx? Why would Bell/Hig want 3 cal girls with all the great girls around here? What about Petruc.  at SMU? What does that coach think? Surely he has scouted the talent in his backyard. SMU 2014- 3 Cal,  slammers, slammers, san juan spirit, Stx, Stx? He has 7 NTX players on the team that went 3-5-1 in the AAC hardly a top 5 league. Surely Baylor would be loading up on NTX girls, right? BAYLOR 2014- Cal, Cal, Cal, NTX, Kansas. Damn how many Cal girls are there? Tech 2014 Cal, Cal, STX, NTX

So for 2014 TCU,SMU,TECH,Baylor = 11 Cal, 3 NTX. Keep in mind the top 100 Cal girls go to ucla, Stanford, USC, Santa Clara, San Diego, Pepperdine, etc.... so the locals are picking up the leftovers from cal, not the top.

It seems like the locals are telling us that they would rather give the #100 girl from cal a 100% scholarship than the #20 player from here.  Didn't someone tell them that our #4 team from NTX beat the #1 team from Cali?  I mean Tech is taking 1 girl from FRAM (cali), and Camarillo those teams would be D2 or D3 here, what is Stone thinking? Or what are these coaches really telling us?
The coaches are telling us that the NTX 2014 class isn't worth recruiting.  Look at the previous year and you will see that the majority are NTX players.
Man that's really odd. I guess the soccer gods felt some inexplicable need to weaken the talent pool for one specific year.
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Post by Packrabbit 28/11/13, 06:57 pm

dadof3 wrote:
dfeetersarethebomb wrote:' Those S. Cal fans can comfort themselves with the scholarship story today, but winning matches can't be explained away and will (eventually) be recognized.'

What does this mean?
The S Cal teams will stop getting scholarships and will stop winning? No one has the fast track or secret in getting better while the others stagnate. I think the winning part is already known - look at most major tournaments on both girls/boys sides. North Texas gets a few in there every now and then.

Given NT training is LA-based, one would expect some bias toward players they can see weekly - that's a no-brainer, but, given some players come from small states, they obviously don't pass on good players when found.
I think what Rabbit is saying is that NTX teams' proliferation, and the number of teams and the amount of success won't be ignored for long.  SoCal teams can't look backwards if NTX teams keep finding a way to win.
'Zactly!

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Post by dfeetersarethebomb 29/11/13, 02:58 pm

Are you saying the coaches will stop recruiting California players because Texas teams win? Is this about winning or recruitment of players? I don't think these are related, as the entire thread has detailed.

If NTX teams keep winning, SoCal teams can't look backwards? What exactly are they looking backwards for? Recruitment of their players or winning? Obviously, they have both now, and, given pure population, likely won't change anytime soon. Or, is there some reason NTX is going to start gaining ground (i.e. SoCal is dropping out of the sport or a lot of their players are moving here)?

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Post by Packrabbit 30/11/13, 12:04 am

dfeetersarethebomb wrote:Are you saying the coaches will stop recruiting California players because Texas teams win? Is this about winning or recruitment of players? I don't think these are related, as the entire thread has detailed.

If NTX teams keep winning, SoCal teams can't look backwards? What exactly are they looking backwards for? Recruitment of their players or winning? Obviously, they have both now, and, given pure population, likely won't change anytime soon. Or, is there some reason NTX is going to start gaining ground (i.e. SoCal is dropping out of the sport or a lot of their players are moving here)?
Dfeeterbomb- I'm not sure if you are actually needing me to clarify or disagree with my post or if you are are looking for a response, but I will endeavor to clarify.

Per NTX success in Phoenix, I was responding to the comment that although NTX has begun winning games against SoCal teams, NTX's soccer and players were not as good or highly regarded as its SoCal counterparts. The inference being that the losing teams had the better players that played the better soccer;  the evidence for this  was that, currently, SoCal players rec'd more  D1 scholarships than NTX.

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Post by recieveopen 05/12/13, 04:55 pm

bwgophers wrote:
Borussia wrote:Look at the soccer being played by the groups graduating now and compare it to the soccer being taught and played by the some of the 01s, 02s, 03s, definetly 04s, 05s, 06s currently.  I would argue the soccer being taught and played by the younger ones will be what turns the tide.  

I have footage of a lovely local 06 squad stringing together passes, not one or tow, but normally in excess of 8 pass sequences.  probing the box, dropping the ball, switching the field, probing the box, playing wide, crossing pass, ending with a goal.  

I sat thru SMU games this season.  Didnt see that once....
Hmmm...  FBR started with the '01's... Hmmm... Maybe it is all my fault after all...Suspect Suspect Suspect 
Gophers, I sure give you all the credit for an awesome system, even if the OK teams were not ranked day in day out down there. Your work showed and it help achieve a new standard in this region. You did good and thank you!Very Happy  Its funny to see how close it still stands today.
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Post by DrSoccer 05/12/13, 06:25 pm

soo.. I was at a showcase tourney last week and had the chance to talk to some local and not so local coaches abt the state of ntx soccer. 4 in fact. (seperately) They all said that an average player from cal had skills that were better suited to college soccer than the best players in ntx. (to put it mildly) One made a joke abt ntx and said ' a soccer player actually has to trap (he demonstrated) AND they have to be able to PASS to their teammate', then he laughed. Another said players from colo were now producing top players as well as east coast areas. 3 said it was not the club coach's fault, that they were focusing on winning to keep their jobs, and what good does it do if they develop college players but lose their jobs? I asked one if he ever considered talking to the clubs about what they should be teaching the girls so they could get more college intererest, he said it didnt matter, it would be like talking to a coach of a 7 yr old and telling him what you needed for her to be a good select player, all he's worried about is winning his next game. Several said that there were more top level players coming out of stx and quite a few from ok considering it's size realative to nxt. Lots more discussion but I thought it was interesting. Heres an interesting comment - 2 of the coaches said a coach Grubb was developing players that would be top level college prospects. I have never seen his teams play but I thought it was interesting since it was unsolicited and came from 2 coaches. Comments?
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Post by recieveopen 05/12/13, 07:55 pm

I think you see Grubb, Beattie, Flannigan and some Lone Star coaches all teaching fast ball movement to feet and that appears to be more old school, well mannered soccer that works. Its a skill strategy that takes longer to teach but very effective when a young team masters it. Its old school style, not this new physical style where you go to a soccer game and a football game breaks out. Girls are wearing head gear now just to deal with the new style of roughness that refs are allowing to exist as "normal play?" Look at the Texas Cup this past weekend, you saw several different style teams but they all have to go against each other at some point and survive. Im an old school fan and Grubb teaches that as you mentioned. We are lucky to have those style coaches in the region.
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Post by planogirl 06/12/13, 12:30 am

Anyone can provide the soccer discussion forum for Southern California?

I am going to find out what they talked about us. :-)

Thanks.

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Post by Pele98 06/12/13, 09:26 am

DrSoccer wrote:soo.. I was at a showcase tourney last week and had the chance to talk to some local and not so local coaches abt the state of ntx soccer. 4 in fact. (seperately)  They all said that an average player from cal had skills that were better suited to college soccer than the best players in ntx. (to put it mildly) One made a joke abt ntx and said ' a soccer player actually has to trap (he demonstrated) AND they have to be able to PASS to their teammate', then he laughed. Another said players from colo were now producing top players as well as east coast areas. 3 said it was not the club coach's fault, that they were focusing on winning to keep their jobs, and what good does it do if they develop college players but lose their jobs? I asked one if he ever considered talking to the clubs about what they should be teaching the girls so they could get more college intererest, he said it didnt matter, it would be like talking to a coach of a 7 yr old and telling him what you needed for her to be a good select player, all he's worried about is winning his next game. Several said that there were more top level players coming out of stx and quite a few from ok considering it's size realative to nxt. Lots more discussion but I thought it was interesting.  Heres an interesting comment - 2 of the coaches said a coach Grubb was developing players that would be top level college prospects. I have never seen his teams play but I thought it was interesting since it was unsolicited and came from 2 coaches. Comments?
DrSoccer, I talked to 8 of them including the 4 you talked with....collectively.....and they all AGREED that winning is what gets and keeps their College Coaching jobs.  They ALL said that NO COLLEGE COACH gets a job or will keep a job just by showing that an average SoCal player can trap the ball and PASS better than the best NTX player.  Actually, 5 of the coaches got their jobs because the previous coaches did not win enough.

I asked them why are they showing up in NTX Showcases if they can get an average or even mediocre players from SoCal, Colo, East Coast even STX and OK who are much better than the best players from NTX? They all laughed and said in unison......."Because NTX Players knows how to win and winning in NCAA is what keeps them employed and gets them bonuses"

6 of them talked about trying to find the top college players in any of the NCAA, NAIA teams developed by a Coach Grubb and how they are doing in college now and what was their experience on transition from Club soccer to College, and none of them could remember ever seeing a Grubb coached player in any College. There was no track record to compare with. They all said that may be AFTER 2017 will be a good time to judge on that, but for now they will just go with what works for them and there is history behind that. 

I thought it was interesting coming from 6 coaches.........and I have seen his teams play.....and I know they can play.

Comments?
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Post by keep22 06/12/13, 09:48 am

ahhhhh the Employed Coaches boNus League.

I stand corrected.

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Post by ballhead 06/12/13, 10:04 am

Pele98 wrote:
DrSoccer wrote:soo.. I was at a showcase tourney last week and had the chance to talk to some local and not so local coaches abt the state of ntx soccer. 4 in fact. (seperately)  They all said that an average player from cal had skills that were better suited to college soccer than the best players in ntx. (to put it mildly) One made a joke abt ntx and said ' a soccer player actually has to trap (he demonstrated) AND they have to be able to PASS to their teammate', then he laughed. Another said players from colo were now producing top players as well as east coast areas. 3 said it was not the club coach's fault, that they were focusing on winning to keep their jobs, and what good does it do if they develop college players but lose their jobs? I asked one if he ever considered talking to the clubs about what they should be teaching the girls so they could get more college intererest, he said it didnt matter, it would be like talking to a coach of a 7 yr old and telling him what you needed for her to be a good select player, all he's worried about is winning his next game. Several said that there were more top level players coming out of stx and quite a few from ok considering it's size realative to nxt. Lots more discussion but I thought it was interesting.  Heres an interesting comment - 2 of the coaches said a coach Grubb was developing players that would be top level college prospects. I have never seen his teams play but I thought it was interesting since it was unsolicited and came from 2 coaches. Comments?
DrSoccer, I talked to 8 of them including the 4 you talked with....collectively.....and they all AGREED that winning is what gets and keeps their College Coaching jobs.  They ALL said that NO COLLEGE COACH gets a job or will keep a job just by showing that an average SoCal player can trap the ball and PASS better than the best NTX player.  Actually, 5 of the coaches got their jobs because the previous coaches did not win enough.

I asked them why are they showing up in NTX Showcases if they can get an average or even mediocre players from SoCal, Colo, East Coast even STX and OK who are much better than the best players from NTX? They all laughed and said in unison......."Because NTX Players knows how to win and winning in NCAA is what keeps them employed and gets them bonuses"

6 of them talked about trying to find the top college players in any of the NCAA, NAIA teams developed by a Coach Grubb and how they are doing in college now and what was their experience on transition from Club soccer to College, and none of them could remember ever seeing a Grubb coached player in any College. There was no track record to compare with. They all said that may be AFTER 2017 will be a good time to judge on that, but for now they will just go with what works for them and there is history behind that. 

I thought it was interesting coming from 6 coaches.........and I have seen his teams play.....and I know they can play.

Comments?
Well done!  Thanks for the exhaustive research.cheers cheers
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Post by Guest 06/12/13, 10:08 am

We absolutely want the college coaches to care about winning. Otherwise the colleges would have no incentive to find the best players. Because winning matters a kid who is a baller from po dunk, usa can go to UNC if she's good enough.

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Post by keep22 10/12/13, 10:15 am

good thing UCLA had that one Texas player on the roster or they wouldn't have known how to win. Very Happy

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Post by Shotshagger 10/12/13, 06:05 pm

keep22 wrote:good thing UCLA had that one Texas player on the roster or they wouldn't have known how to win. Very Happy

This Fort Worth native played for Solar Chelsea and FW Country Day before heading to Cali for college ball. She scored in UCLA's Sweet 16 win over Stanford, then scored again in the Elite 8 round to push her team past UNC 1-0.  She put two off the woodwork in the first half of the final as well.  

Here's where you can insert the punchline of your choice--something along the lines of:


"She'd be just an average player in SoCal"
"UCLA managed to overcome her penchant for scoring on their way to the national title"
"Two dozen of my closest D1 soccer coach friends all scoff at her skill and finishing ability"
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Phoenix Showcase - Page 3 Empty Re: Phoenix Showcase

Post by Guest 11/12/13, 08:08 am

Shotshagger wrote:
keep22 wrote:good thing UCLA had that one Texas player on the roster or they wouldn't have known how to win. Very Happy

This Fort Worth native played for Solar Chelsea and FW Country Day before heading to Cali for college ball. She scored in UCLA's Sweet 16 win over Stanford, then scored again in the Elite 8 round to push her team past UNC 1-0.  She put two off the woodwork in the first half of the final as well.  

Here's where you can insert the punchline of your choice--something along the lines of:


"She'd be just an average player in SoCal"
"UCLA managed to overcome her penchant for scoring on their way to the national title"
"Two dozen of my closest D1 soccer coach friends all scoff at her skill and finishing ability"

That kid is fast. Very, very, very, explosively FAST! And she wasn't the only one on UCLA. UCLA might be the only team that can out athlete UNC, and they were still a notch above UNC in technical quality IMO.

Just imagine if there were a women's team with the athleticism and pace of UCLA, and the top to bottom technical quality and soccer IQ of a UVA!

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Phoenix Showcase - Page 3 Empty Re: Phoenix Showcase

Post by Guest 11/12/13, 09:11 am

4-3-3 wrote:
Shotshagger wrote:
keep22 wrote:good thing UCLA had that one Texas player on the roster or they wouldn't have known how to win. Very Happy

This Fort Worth native played for Solar Chelsea and FW Country Day before heading to Cali for college ball. She scored in UCLA's Sweet 16 win over Stanford, then scored again in the Elite 8 round to push her team past UNC 1-0.  She put two off the woodwork in the first half of the final as well.  

Here's where you can insert the punchline of your choice--something along the lines of:


"She'd be just an average player in SoCal"
"UCLA managed to overcome her penchant for scoring on their way to the national title"
"Two dozen of my closest D1 soccer coach friends all scoff at her skill and finishing ability"

That kid is fast. Very, very, very, explosively FAST! And she wasn't the only one on UCLA. UCLA might be the only team that can out athlete UNC, and they were still a notch above UNC in technical quality IMO.

Just imagine if there were a women's team with the athleticism and pace of UCLA, and the top to bottom technical quality and soccer IQ of a UVA!

This is an example of how athleticism beats skill in women's soccer. UCLA was speed, speed, and more speed and it won the day. This is a major difference in women's and men's soccer. Women can win with pure athletes and less skill at the top level of play.


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Phoenix Showcase - Page 3 Empty Re: Phoenix Showcase

Post by Guest 11/12/13, 09:21 am

RunsLikeWind wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:
Shotshagger wrote:
keep22 wrote:good thing UCLA had that one Texas player on the roster or they wouldn't have known how to win. Very Happy

This Fort Worth native played for Solar Chelsea and FW Country Day before heading to Cali for college ball. She scored in UCLA's Sweet 16 win over Stanford, then scored again in the Elite 8 round to push her team past UNC 1-0.  She put two off the woodwork in the first half of the final as well.  

Here's where you can insert the punchline of your choice--something along the lines of:


"She'd be just an average player in SoCal"
"UCLA managed to overcome her penchant for scoring on their way to the national title"
"Two dozen of my closest D1 soccer coach friends all scoff at her skill and finishing ability"

That kid is fast. Very, very, very, explosively FAST! And she wasn't the only one on UCLA. UCLA might be the only team that can out athlete UNC, and they were still a notch above UNC in technical quality IMO.

Just imagine if there were a women's team with the athleticism and pace of UCLA, and the top to bottom technical quality and soccer IQ of a UVA!

This is an example of how athleticism beats skill in women's soccer.  UCLA was speed, speed, and more speed and it won the day.  This is a major difference in women's and men's soccer.  Women can win with pure athletes and less skill at the top level of play.


It only carried the day because few teams had top to bottom skill to compete with ucla speed. I wouldnt say there were many teams period that had anymore skill than ucla. UVA did. UVA dominated ucla in first half and had they not changed their game plan 2nd half and gotten tired they likely would be champs. If this year's uva and this year's ucla played a two game aggregate I'd put money on uva all day.

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