Big,Fast and Aggressive vs. Skilled

Balotelli45 wrote:

DrB wrote:

3-4-3 wrote:
U.S. Soccer would've had NO PROBLEM identifying a Messi. Developing him to the top level is a different story. We would struggle identifying xavi, pirlo or y.toure far more than we would a dribbling phenom who scores goals.

Um...while I like your post, something tells me we'd be pretty good at identifying the fast giant kid who is physically beyond everyone else who also happens to have a very gifted older brother.

Of course so would the pointyball coaches.

Agreed. I don't think the big kid with skill who runs like train would have an issue being identified. Especially with the talented older brother.

Matter of fact... I think people would be drooling over Yaya.

Go City!!!

Would he have been identified as a potential star soccer player, or just a big strong kid who can help me win games? He and his brother would've been likely pigeonholed as "athletes". No way Yaya's skill gets developed in the U.S. system. The list is VERY small of u.s. youth coaches who will develop the yaya types as a midfield maestro.

He'd have been spit out as an Altidore, or a Gooch, ending up a journeyman in some 2nd or 3rd division european league...unless he left the states early enough to make a decent career for himself by the time he was 25ish. Of course Yaya, his brother and M.Richards would've just as easily been star linebackers once they got tired of the soccer scene. LOL.

3-4-3 wrote:

Balotelli45 wrote:

DrB wrote:

3-4-3 wrote:
U.S. Soccer would've had NO PROBLEM identifying a Messi. Developing him to the top level is a different story. We would struggle identifying xavi, pirlo or y.toure far more than we would a dribbling phenom who scores goals.

Um...while I like your post, something tells me we'd be pretty good at identifying the fast giant kid who is physically beyond everyone else who also happens to have a very gifted older brother.

Of course so would the pointyball coaches.

Agreed. I don't think the big kid with skill who runs like train would have an issue being identified. Especially with the talented older brother.

Matter of fact... I think people would be drooling over Yaya.

Go City!!!

Would he have been identified as a potential star soccer player, or just a big strong kid who can help me win games? He and his brother would've been likely pigeonholed as "athletes". No way Yaya's skill gets developed in the U.S. system. The list is VERY small of u.s. youth coaches who will develop the yaya types as a midfield maestro.

He'd have been spit out as an Altidore, or a Gooch, ending up a journeyman in some 2nd or 3rd division european league...unless he left the states early enough to make a decent career for himself by the time he was 25ish. Of course Yaya, his brother and M.Richards would've just as easily been star linebackers once they got tired of the soccer scene. LOL.

If what you say is true..US soccer will continue to stink. The "if Kobe and Lebron played soccer debate is moot if there aren't coaches that can or will develop them.

Kobe, Lebron and other world class American athlets in the soccer debate is moot due to:

NFL minimum salary - $405k
MLB minimum salary - $490k
NBA minimum salary - $475k +
MLS minimum salary - $33,750

slrsoccer wrote:Kobe, Lebron and other world class American athlets in the soccer debate is moot due to:

NFL minimum salary - $405k
MLB minimum salary - $490k
NBA minimum salary - $475k +
MLS minimum salary - $33,750

And, yet, the average EPL player makes around $1.7 million a year, and that's before lucrative bonuses. The money is there for the taking, even if not on this side of the Atlantic. And, honestly, what US city is as cool as London anyway?

Balotelli45 wrote:
If what you say is true..US soccer will continue to stink. The "if Kobe and Lebron played soccer debate is moot if there aren't coaches that can or will develop them.

I wouldn't say we stink, we're in the top 40 soccer nations. Indonesia stinks. India stinks. We're just mediocre.

But you're right, I don't think we're structured to be anything but average for the foreseeable future (speaking of our men). Our women are among the best in the world...for now. Time will tell if that can hold after another decade of pricing out the youth players.

3-4-3 wrote:

slrsoccer wrote:It drives me nuts when we talk about Pele, Messi or Maradona as examples for what our kids should be striving for. These 3 are complete freaks of nature. Quit striving for the skill level of these 3, its not going to happen...and if it was, you would already know. Also, I would disagree with 3-4-3, these 3 would have been world class no matter where they grew up.

They may have been world class athletes, but they would not have been world class soccer players....especially if you're talking about them growing up here in the eras in which they were born. Not a chance. They were ALL worthy of attention by pro scouts long before they ever hit select soccer age.

Exactly where and how in the u.s. would they have developed that level of skill? Watching '60s, 70s or 80's youtube videos of players in brazil and argentina?

Who of anywhere close to world class talent would they have gone outside and played against for hours on hours? Part of greatness is being born in the right place at the right time with the right talents to match your place and time. Take a read of Malcolm Gladwell's outliers - very compelling argument.

Here is a good example of an Outlier who was discovered because his position/location changed. This is from an ESPN interview with Malcolm Gladwell. Very good evidence that you need to be in the right place at the right time (and be born at the right time of the year.) In this interview Gladwell also argues that leagues need to be split into 2 groups per age group to give the later born kids a chance to get good training when they are young instead of being neglected for the "Bigger, Stronger because they are Older" kids.


Now that I've read your book, I'd like to go back and reread "The Blind Side" by Michael Lewis. Michael Oher, the central figure in that book, is a prototypical outlier -- a naturally gifted football prodigy who goes from having no support system to having an awesome one, and changes remarkably in the process. Where do you think someone like Oher fits into your work?
I thought a lot about "The Blind Side." It might be my favorite book of the last 10 years. It really is a masterpiece, and you are absolutely right that it touches on many of the themes I explore in "Outliers." Oher is a player of extraordinary natural ability. But that ability means nothing until he is placed in an environment that is supportive and nurturing and stable.
There's an incredibly poignant moment in that book at the very end, when Oher says that if all the athletes from his old neighborhood in East Memphis who had the talent to play in the NFL actually ended up in the NFL, they'd "need two leagues." I'll never forget that. Success is a partnership between the individual and society. It's true in sports, and it's true in the rest of life as well. And hopefully my book will wake us up to the fact that as a society we haven't been doing our part.
- See more at: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=merron/081208#sthash.OTjmL7Wr.dpuf

weatherbug wrote:

3-4-3 wrote:

slrsoccer wrote:It drives me nuts when we talk about Pele, Messi or Maradona as examples for what our kids should be striving for. These 3 are complete freaks of nature. Quit striving for the skill level of these 3, its not going to happen...and if it was, you would already know. Also, I would disagree with 3-4-3, these 3 would have been world class no matter where they grew up.

They may have been world class athletes, but they would not have been world class soccer players....especially if you're talking about them growing up here in the eras in which they were born. Not a chance. They were ALL worthy of attention by pro scouts long before they ever hit select soccer age.

Exactly where and how in the u.s. would they have developed that level of skill? Watching '60s, 70s or 80's youtube videos of players in brazil and argentina?

Who of anywhere close to world class talent would they have gone outside and played against for hours on hours? Part of greatness is being born in the right place at the right time with the right talents to match your place and time. Take a read of Malcolm Gladwell's outliers - very compelling argument.

Here is a good example of an Outlier who was discovered because his position/location changed. This is from an ESPN interview with Malcolm Gladwell. Very good evidence that you need to be in the right place at the right time (and be born at the right time of the year.) In this interview Gladwell also argues that leagues need to be split into 2 groups per age group to give the later born kids a chance to get good training when they are young instead of being neglected for the "Bigger, Stronger because they are Older" kids.


Now that I've read your book, I'd like to go back and reread "The Blind Side" by Michael Lewis. Michael Oher, the central figure in that book, is a prototypical outlier -- a naturally gifted football prodigy who goes from having no support system to having an awesome one, and changes remarkably in the process. Where do you think someone like Oher fits into your work?
I thought a lot about "The Blind Side." It might be my favorite book of the last 10 years. It really is a masterpiece, and you are absolutely right that it touches on many of the themes I explore in "Outliers." Oher is a player of extraordinary natural ability. But that ability means nothing until he is placed in an environment that is supportive and nurturing and stable.
There's an incredibly poignant moment in that book at the very end, when Oher says that if all the athletes from his old neighborhood in East Memphis who had the talent to play in the NFL actually ended up in the NFL, they'd "need two leagues." I'll never forget that. Success is a partnership between the individual and society. It's true in sports, and it's true in the rest of life as well. And hopefully my book will wake us up to the fact that as a society we haven't been doing our part.
- See more at: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=merron/081208#sthash.OTjmL7Wr.dpuf

This is a great point.I grew up in an area where there was a ton of athletes...However, for reasons outside of coaching most of them didn't make it. And almost all of them did not play soccer. For some reason my cousin who was 6'2 and athletic decided to play soccer. He played for the No.2 High School in the country, and went on to play with Claudio Reyna at UVA.

Unfortunately in the U.S...If a kid is Big Fast and aggressive with a love for the game, a desire to improve, and comes from a stable family with resources, he still will not be developed properly to become a top soccer player.

However, take that same kid and give him a love for Basketball or football and he will be in the NFL or NBA.

My nephew was Gatorade soccer player of the year in Massachusetts and plays for Harvard now... But if you ask him how he competed when he traveled the world to play...he will laugh and say it's not even close. For the boys...we are not close.

I find The Age Effect from Outliers fascinating. My favorite take away from this Powerpoint I found is that decisions about the ultimate soccer fate of a player should be held off until after puberty. I think it's just natural that a coach would select a big, fast and most importantly coordinated older player over a smaller less coordinated one at a younger age group. The smaller ones may become more coordinated over time, but the bigger ones may have received better training in the meantime.

The “Age Effect” in Soccer- Dr. Tom Turner, Ohio Youth Soccer Association North Director of Coaching and Player Development US Soccer National Instructional Staff
US Youth Soccer National Instructional Staff US Youth Soccer National Coaching Committee US Youth Soccer Olympic Development Program

The “Age Effect” in Action Primary Sources: Game On, by Tom Farrey & Outliers, by Malcolm Gladwell

A player born in January / August has a maturational advantage over anyone born later in the calendar / seasonal year; sometimes up to 12 months.
“Older” players tend to be bigger than “younger” players until puberty balances out the physical differences.
Girls typically stop growing between 13 & 15; boys between 14 & 17. Some boys grow through college.
“Older” players are more likely to be selected for Travel and Premier teams.

“Older” players get better training and receive more developmental opportunities than “younger” players.
Players not selected for Travel or Premier teams are, in effect, told they are not good at soccer.
They are relegated to recreational play, often with poor coaches, and they quit - in droves.
At every level, players at the front end of an age year (January / August) dominate initial selections simply because they are bigger.

The cumulative effect of beneficial developmental opportunities becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy with regard to “older” players. The ability gap naturally widens over time.
Players born in the 1st 6 months of an age year are significantly more likely to be selected for anything.
This is true of the youth level and at the professional level.
Players born in the second half of an age year never catch up.

In effect, we are eliminating much of the gene pool from developing their talents.
These selection decisions are being made about players as young as seven.
The real decisions should be delayed until after puberty. What month was your child born?

The “Age Effect” in Action
Girl’s ODP Rosters: 1994 - 2004
All 4 Regions U-14 through U-17
Averages 67% Jan-Jun, 37% Jul-Dec

USA National Team Rosters
Jan-Jun Jul-Dec 21
Full Men 31 (60%) 21 (40%)
Full Women 13 (52%) 12 (48%)
U-23 Men 26 (68%) 12 (32%)
U-23 Women 36 (46%) 43 (54%)

U-15 Women 22 (71%) 9 (29%)
U-15 Men Averages 35 (83%) 7 (27%)

There are more stats here for different ODP groups, National teams, etc
http://www.tnsoccer.org/Assets/age+effect+in+youth+soccer.pdf

both of mine are late summer babies. I think parental influence and coaching has to play an important role. I has seen BB (born on the last day for select) grow up as one of the smallest in his age group. He was always very skilled and quick and always encouraging him to learn to play the game "his" way (a way that suits him). He managed to become an impact player and then play up. Then he started to grow. And now when he plays calander year based he is beeger than average but he still has the skill and ball movement. But at a younger age it wasn't coaches pulling him forward and promoting him (other than a couple who thought he would be really good) it was me searching for the right coaches. Me telling him to just keep working its gonna be fine. Me reminding him that in the end its your skill, hardwork, and dedication that will matter. The big kids many touted are either no longer playing or not the player everyone made them out to be.

If your kid has a late Bday look at it like this. Who are the best kids in the age group below(soccer year) most of those kids will probably be closer to your kids age than the kids he/she play with. How do they compare to those kids.

The guy who brought Pep Guardiola to Barcelona as a youth said it best. "Everybody grows"

I get it...but we have the school year thing in academy...age pure doesn't start until ODP.

So in essence, the kids born between March - August have the disadvantage in the younger ages here in NTX...right?

"The Barca youth coaches told Cruyff that Guardiola was “one of the best."

But over the next year, the Dutchman said he looked for Guardiola in the reserves and didn’t see him:

“So then I looked at the first youth team, and he didn't play in that team. And eventually I found him in the third youth team.

“So I said to the coaches, ‘You said he was the best one!’ And they said, ‘Yeah, but physically …’ I said, ‘Put him there (in the reserves). He will grow. Don't worry, everybody grows.’ And they said, ‘Yeah, but we will lose.’ I said, ‘If we lose, we lose. We need to create players.’ And he did very well.”

With Guardiola as playmaker, Barcelona won six La Liga titles and the European Cup.

“The people who control the ball very well, they're the most important players,” Cruyff said. “And weak, smaller players, to survive they had to have a better technique than the others. Normally everyone grows -- some a little later, some at different times, but everybody grows. A lot of things will change but the base of soccer is always technique, always should be technique.”

Now in his fourth year as Barcelona's coach, Guardiola's titles include two European Cups, three La Liga titles, a World Club Cup and the Spanish Cup -- with a team famous for 5-foot-7 stars Leo Messi, Andres Iniesta and Xavi."

Unfortunately that usually isn't done here. We push the kid to the fringes and label him not as good.

I get it...but we have the school year thing in academy...age pure doesn't start until ODP.

So in essence, the kids born between March - August have the disadvantage in the younger ages here in NTX...right?

yes and no. Yes they are smaller sometimes but they learn to play against bigger faster opponents, those with prior year b days play against smaller slower opponents. when things equalize i think BF are no longer the only BF ones out there and are not used to kids just as fast as them and now just as big. i can really see this in odp. for example u12 ,that kid with a late 01 bday is playing with 02's as the old kid now at odp he is playing against early 01's who have been playing late 00's for a long time and now those kids are not only bigger and faster usually, they are now playing against kids who have been playing younger kids usually. very interesting to watch

HULK win.

silentparent wrote:I get it...but we have the school year thing in academy...age pure doesn't start until ODP.

So in essence, the kids born between March - August have the disadvantage in the younger ages here in NTX...right?

yes and no. Yes they are smaller sometimes but they learn to play against bigger faster opponents, those with prior year b days play against smaller slower opponents. when things equalize i think BF are no longer the only BF ones out there and are not used to kids just as fast as them and now just as big. i can really see this in odp. for example u12 ,that kid with a late 01 bday is playing with 02's as the old kid now at odp he is playing against early 01's who have been playing late 00's for a long time and now those kids are not only bigger and faster usually, they are now playing against kids who have been playing younger kids usually. very interesting to watch

Yes and no? Pretty extensive research involving multiple sports and countries says resoundingly yes.

Gunners wrote:

silentparent wrote:I get it...but we have the school year thing in academy...age pure doesn't start until ODP.

So in essence, the kids born between March - August have the disadvantage in the younger ages here in NTX...right?

yes and no. Yes they are smaller sometimes but they learn to play against bigger faster opponents, those with prior year b days play against smaller slower opponents. when things equalize i think BF are no longer the only BF ones out there and are not used to kids just as fast as them and now just as big. i can really see this in odp. for example u12 ,that kid with a late 01 bday is playing with 02's as the old kid now at odp he is playing against early 01's who have been playing late 00's for a long time and now those kids are not only bigger and faster usually, they are now playing against kids who have been playing younger kids usually. very interesting to watch

Yes and no? Pretty extensive research involving multiple sports and countries says resoundingly yes.

sorry, i didnt have time to write a white paper on the subject, but yes you're right...

Meow.