Select Dues (big Club) and a mediocre team

So i was looking at the new FBR'04 released today and it brought a question about going select next year and the costs.

Here's my question:  Why would a family want to pay big club prices ($3,000+misc expenses), to be part of a mediocre team?

So here is my thought:
FBR'04 rankings - 92 teams (over time it will dwindle down)
LHGCL Div 1 spots - 20 teams
LHGCL Div 3 spots - 10 teams
PPL Div 1 spots: 18 teams
PPL Div 2 spots:  18 teams
PPL Div 3 spots:  18 teams
Recreation league:  Unlimited

I can totally see a family paying the dues for LHGCL Div 1, LHGCL Div3 and possibly PPL Div 1!!!!!!!
1.  But why would a family want to pay a lot of money to a big club if thier team is in PPL Div 2 or PPL 3?
2.  Do the bigger clubs offer discounts for the lower division teams?  (LOL, i know that's funny!)
3.  It is a given that smaller clubs raise thier prices as well, when they turn select, but it shouldn't be a lot more right?
4.  When does a family decide that thier team is a Glorified Rec. team and ask then ask themselves...where is that extra money going to?

I'm not trying to knock the bigger clubs for "all roads lead to the Bigger Clubs" but on the other hand, they do have quite a few teams in the lower 50% (#46 and lower).  Those are the ones I'm talking about.

A very quick analysis (probably made some mistakes) to add some fuel to the discussion...

Here's the number of teams that the 5 ECNL clubs (D'Feeters, FC Dallas, Solar, Sting, & Texans) have in PPL + APL in each age group, and what % of the total PPL + APL teams that represents:

U11 - 12 teams (54 total teams) = 22%
U12 - 9 teams (58 total teams) = 16%
U13 - 8 teams (59 total teams) = 14%
U14 - 5 teams (49 total teams) = 10%
U15 - 2 teams (40 total teams) = 8%
U16 - 2 teams (30 total teams) = 7%
U17/U19 - 1 team (18 total teams) = 6%

By contrast, here's the number of teams the the 5 ECNL clubs have in LHGCL + ECNL in each age group, and what % of those total teams that represents:

U11 - 15 teams (30 total teams) = 50%
U12 - 14 teams (30 total teams) = 47%
U13 - 15 teams (29 total teams) = 52%
U14 - 23 teams (35 total teams) = 66%
U15 - 21 teams (33 total teams) = 64%
U16 - 18 teams (33 total teams) = 55%
U17 - 21 teams (32 total teams) = 66%

Hmmmmm...

great topic and insight. To help validate SD's point about the lower ranked PPL teams, has anyone taken the time to see what teams or how many have been moved up in division or leagues over the years? I thought I recalled seeing this somewhere in an ealier post this year.

For example, how many '03 teams qualified for and played in PPL in their first year, but then moved up and qualified for LHGCL or a higher division this year? and on the flip side, how many LHGCL teams from last year did not qualify this year and had to settle for PPL this fall?

Everyone wants to be a part of something, even if it means dishing out the extra money for a sub par team for little

Aria, Becky, Catherine, Diana, Evette, Fay, Gail, Hilary, Iris, Jane, Kate, Lilly, Mia, Nancy, Ode, Patsy, Quiana, Rose, Sandy, Tina, Ursa, Valeri, Waneta, Xana, Yolanda, & Zena .

Its part of the American way.

FieldofDreams wrote:

For example, how many '03 teams qualified for and played in PPL in their first year, but then moved up and qualified for LHGCL or a higher division this year? and on the flip side, how many LHGCL teams from last year did not qualify this year and had to settle for PPL this fall?

Well, it's a bit early to gather data on the "03s"
They are just a few games into their initial select season.
I assume you mean U11s.

Each year, the bottom 4 LHGCL DIII teams are required to requalify

Here's an interesting fact courtesy of bwgophers....
Over the past 3 years, 12    U11 LHGCL teams have attempted to requalify....1 has been successful. The other 11 teams earning a spot in DIII came from PPL and APL.

Rookie wrote:

FieldofDreams wrote:

For example, how many '03 teams qualified for and played in PPL in their first year, but then moved up and qualified for LHGCL or a higher division this year? and on the flip side, how many LHGCL teams from last year did not qualify this year and had to settle for PPL this fall?

Well, it's a bit early to gather data on the "03s"
They are just a few games into their initial select season.
I assume you mean U11s.

Each year, the bottom 4 LHGCL DIII teams are required to requalify
( 5 teams in certain age groups).
Here's an interesting fact courtesy of bwgophers....
Over the past 3 years, 12    U11 LHGCL teams have attempted to requalify....1 has been successful. The other 11 teams earning a spot in DIII came from PPL and APL.

And rest assured...for those 11 teams that moved down from LHGCL to PPL/APL...I'm fairly certain their annual dues DID NOT go down...even though qual tourney/league/ref/field fees for PPL are notably less than for LHGCL.

Rookie wrote:

FieldofDreams wrote:

For example, how many '03 teams qualified for and played in PPL in their first year, but then moved up and qualified for LHGCL or a higher division this year? and on the flip side, how many LHGCL teams from last year did not qualify this year and had to settle for PPL this fall?

Well, it's a bit early to gather data on the "03s"
They are just a few games into their initial select season.
I assume you mean U11s.

Each year, the bottom 4 LHGCL DIII teams are required to requalify

Here's an interesting fact courtesy of bwgophers....
Over the past 3 years, 12    U11 LHGCL teams have attempted to requalify....1 has been successful. The other 11 teams earning a spot in DIII came from PPL and APL.

Yes, sorry, meant '02s. good info, thanks

bwgophers wrote:A very quick analysis (probably made some mistakes) to add some fuel to the discussion...

Here's the number of teams that the 5 ECNL clubs (D'Feeters, FC Dallas, Solar, Sting, & Texans) have in PPL + APL in each age group, and what % of the total PPL + APL teams that represents:

U11 - 12 teams (54 total teams) = 22%
U12 - 9 teams (58 total teams) = 16%
U13 - 8 teams (59 total teams) = 14%
U14 - 5 teams (49 total teams) = 10%
U15 - 2 teams (40 total teams) = 8%
U16 - 2 teams (30 total teams) = 7%
U17/U19 - 1 team (18 total teams) = 6%

By contrast, here's the number of teams the the 5 ECNL clubs have in LHGCL + ECNL in each age group, and what % of those total teams that represents:

U11 - 15 teams (30 total teams) = 50%
U12 - 14 teams (30 total teams) = 47%
U13 - 15 teams (29 total teams) = 52%
U14 - 23 teams (35 total teams) = 66%
U15 - 21 teams (33 total teams) = 64%
U16 - 18 teams (33 total teams) = 55%
U17 - 21 teams (32 total teams) = 66%

Hmmmmm...

 
 
BW maybe I am a little slow here, but trying to figure out what to take from the data?
 
If I am reading it correctly it tells me that these clubs own the LHGCL/ECNL leagues and in general their % increases as the girls get older.  It also shows that they have a pretty good % of the PPL/APL teams in the first year, but over time that decreases significantly.  
 
Which kind of indicates what I would have thought big club teams either move up to LHGCL or fold over time.
 
It will be interesting to see how the early year % change in the future if you included the other big clubs especially LP with the 04 class coming up.  If my quick math is right like 27 of the 04 teams either belong to LP or Sting each club with about the same # of teams (that is almost 30% of the age group).

bigtex wrote: 
BW maybe I am a little slow here,  

Finally.... you get it!!  

boilerjoe_96 wrote:

bigtex wrote: 
BW maybe I am a little slow here,  

Finally.... you get it!!   

Well played Joe- why do I get the feeling you have been just waiting for me to make one false step to pounce on.  

Why are other families finances any concern for anyone else?!!

bigtex wrote:

boilerjoe_96 wrote:

bigtex wrote: 
BW maybe I am a little slow here,  

Finally.... you get it!!   

Well played Joe- why do I get the feeling you have been just waiting for me to make one false step to pounce on.   

Now Tex...what gives you that feeling?  But here is video of you in your younger days!  

boilerjoe_96 wrote:

bigtex wrote:

boilerjoe_96 wrote:

bigtex wrote: 
BW maybe I am a little slow here,  

Finally.... you get it!!   

Well played Joe- why do I get the feeling you have been just waiting for me to make one false step to pounce on.   

Now Tex...what gives you that feeling?  But here is video of you in your younger days!  

Apparently younger and skinner. Take some advice from new to the pitch and mind your own business like everyone else on this forum  

"1. But why would a family want to pay a lot of money to a big club if thier team is in PPL Div 2 or PPL 3?"

I assume no one actually wants to pay money for youth soccer at any level, do they? Unless a player is among the truly elite top-of-the-heap, select soccer is a horrendous investment from LH D1 all the way to PPL D4. That's a matter of fact.

Nevertheless, there is a lot to consider with this question. What is the player's level versus the available options within a reasonable driving range of her house? It's not as easy as taking the stance "We're not going to waste money on PPL D2. Get the little dynamo on a LH D2 team regardless of what she thinks about the coach or players". The options may be limited.

"2. Do the bigger clubs offer discounts for the lower division teams? (LOL, i know that's funny!)"

Ha ha! That IS funny. No, I have never heard of this happening unless it's the rare situation in which a coach volunteers his time instead of charging for training. What you've described was the structure, however, with the club for which my daughter played select volleyball. You could choose from three levels which were essentially elite, select, and rec-plus (don't remember the actual names of the segments). There was not much of a price difference between the top and middle, but the drop to the lowest was substantial. So were the number of tournaments, practices per week, etc.

"3. It is a given that smaller clubs raise thier prices as well, when they turn select, but it shouldn't be a lot more right?"

The bigger a club gets, the higher its overhead will be. To cover that overhead, clubs need more teams to share the costs. Lighted fields are one of the biggest expenses, so if your daughter is part of a club with its own facilities, it's going to be high. And then there's all the high dollar coaches of the best teams within the club. You don't think these guys make the typical $12,000 - $17,000 per team, do you? The lesser teams help fund the salaries of coaches who have nothing to do with them.

"4. When does a family decide that thier team is a Glorified Rec. team and ask then ask themselves...where is that extra money going to?"

Maybe never. People throw money at lots of things and never think twice. As for glorified rec, that applies to a lot of select teams. I watched a PPL D1 team tonight that would lose to many PSA rec teams. Heck, I've seen some LH D3 teams that make me wonder what the coach has been teaching the kids. Many people think you get what you pay for with select soccer. Lots of these coaches don't have a clue, and parents are paying them to stand around at practices while the kids scrimmage 75% of the time. What a joke. Just because a coach works for fill-in-the-club-name-here doesn't mean he's any good or even cares that much about the players under his direction. Teams = paychecks.

bigtex wrote:
 
BW maybe I am a little slow here, but trying to figure out what to take from the data?
 

Don't know that you can draw any strong conclusions from this data.  Just thought it was an interesting snapshot of the current landscape.

To draw definitive conclusions, you'd have to look at a similar breakdown for each year from the past 3-5 years at least, to see if the trends are similar.

If the trends are consistent, what it would suggest to me...

- As you mentioned, as the age groups progress, teams from the ECNL clubs tend to either work their way into LHGCL, or go by the wayside.

- Not sure if the apparent "jump" in % of teams from ECNL clubs in LHGCL + ECNL at U14 and above, is just an aberration this year, or a true trend.  If it is a true trend, it suggests a couple of things:

1)  When the top ECNL teams leave LHGCL at U14, a disproportionate number of teams that join LHGCL to replace them, are also coming from ECNL clubs.  However, even if it was a 1-for-1 replacement where every ECNL team was replaced in LHGCL by another team from an ECNL club (which definitely is not the case), even that wouldn't be enough to explain the jump in LHGCL teams coming from the ECNL clubs at U14 and above.

2) That players and/or teams are migrating from other clubs to the ECNL clubs at U14 and older, not just for ECNL, but for LHGCL level play as well (coincidentally, as the kids get close to HS/recruiting age).  My hypothesis being that there is a real or perceived advantage in playing for a team in one of these clubs as it relates to kids making their HS Varsity teams and/or getting recruited to play beyond HS.

JustaSport wrote:"1.  But why would a family want to pay a lot of money to a big club if thier team is in PPL Div 2 or PPL 3?"

I assume no one actually wants to pay money for youth soccer at any level, do they?  Unless a player is among the truly elite top-of-the-heap, select soccer is a horrendous investment from LH D1 all the way to PPL D4.  That's a matter of fact.  

Nevertheless, there is a lot to consider with this question.  What is the player's level versus the available options within a reasonable driving range of her house?  It's not as easy as taking the stance "We're not going to waste money on PPL D2.  Get the little dynamo on a LH D2 team regardless of what she thinks about the coach or players".  The options may be limited.

"2.  Do the bigger clubs offer discounts for the lower division teams?  (LOL, i know that's funny!)"

Ha ha!  That IS funny.  No, I have never heard of this happening unless it's the rare situation in which a coach volunteers his time instead of charging for training.  What you've described was the structure, however, with the club for which my daughter played select volleyball.  You could choose from three levels which were essentially elite, select, and rec-plus (don't remember the actual names of the segments).  There was not much of a price difference between the top and middle, but the drop to the lowest was substantial.  So were the number of tournaments, practices per week, etc.

"3.  It is a given that smaller clubs raise thier prices as well, when they turn select, but it shouldn't be a lot more right?"

The bigger a club gets, the higher its overhead will be.  To cover that overhead, clubs need more teams to share the costs.  Lighted fields are one of the biggest expenses, so if your daughter is part of a club with its own facilities, it's going to be high.  And then there's all the high dollar coaches of the best teams within the club.  You don't think these guys make the typical $12,000 - $17,000 per team, do you?  The lesser teams help fund the salaries of coaches who have nothing to do with them.

"4.  When does a family decide that thier team is a Glorified Rec. team and ask then ask themselves...where is that extra money going to?"

Maybe never.  People throw money at lots of things and never think twice.  As for glorified rec, that applies to a lot of select teams.  I watched a PPL D1 team tonight that would lose to many PSA rec teams.  Heck, I've seen some LH D3 teams that make me wonder what the coach has been teaching the kids.  Many people think you get what you pay for with select soccer.  Lots of these coaches don't have a clue, and parents are paying them to stand around at practices while the kids scrimmage 75% of the time.  What a joke.  Just because a coach works for fill-in-the-club-name-here doesn't mean he's any good or even cares that much about the players under his direction.  Teams = paychecks.

This +1000; great points.

Somewhere, on some forum, there is the same discussion taking place on the level of gymnastics venue, ice skating, equestrian options.

Dues are the price of admission regardless of level - lots of factors go into the dues, primarily the coaching salary. I don't see why a coach on a D3 team would demand less money - there is no reason to do so.

How about on the top end that goes straight into the clubs pocket? What does it take to run that strip mall in Richardson that Sting's offices are in?

clueless wrote:

Dues are the price of admission regardless of level - lots of factors go into the dues, primarily the coaching salary.  I don't see why a coach on a D3 team would demand less money - there is no reason to do so.

I see the issue from both sides, but I do think there may be a market for clubs to offer a "lower level" team with lower cost and lower level of commitment. Some kids may love the game and enjoy playing at a higher-than-rec level, but don't want to commit to or don't have the talent to play at the level of the top leagues. Fewer practices a week, fewer tournaments with less travel, and fewer off-season commitments also translates to less time required of the coach. I would also add that since parents would know going in that they are signing up to play on a "rec +" type team, it would also hopefully mean there would be less pressure on the coach to win (less job stress). Why would a coach coaching in this situation expect the same pay as a D1 level counterpart?

(I am not saying any of the clubs out there are doing this right now; just saying I could see it being an option that some parents would pay for. Right now I suspect that many of those players who would be attracted to this model stop playing altogether, but that is just a guess. My daughters aren't at the select level yet; we are still one age group away.)

There's definitely a market for it. In fact, there are countless examples of early age D1 teams even where the cost is low. This is primarily driven by the coach forgoing payment and/or uniforms being sponsored. This allows the cost to be only tournaments/league fees/field rental (if applicable).

It's obviously less likely as they get older/more competitive or move to a big club (coaching for a club would give zero incentive for the less salary situation). More power to any coach who has less pressure to win, but that's internal - there are several coaches who never win, but they are driven to do so - as well as coaches who win all the time, but, they get the big picture and it's not the only thing that drives them.

Personally, I think the big market would be for tournaments to cater to only D3 and lower or only Plano/Arlington and lower. There's so little incentive to enter a tournament if some D1 team enters and kills everyone. There just isn't a great method to know who is entering one.

My kids have been on teams who are very light on numbers of practices and tournaments fortunately. However, starting last year, that changed with my dd's team given regionals/nationals/prem league/national league. It not only increases the cost and time commitment, but plants seeds into parent's heads that may/may not be realistic.

bwgophers wrote:A very quick analysis (probably made some mistakes) to add some fuel to the discussion...

Here's the number of teams that the 5 ECNL clubs (D'Feeters, FC Dallas, Solar, Sting, & Texans) have in PPL + APL in each age group, and what % of the total PPL + APL teams that represents:

U11 - 12 teams (54 total teams) = 22%
U12 - 9 teams (58 total teams) = 16%
U13 - 8 teams (59 total teams) = 14%
U14 - 5 teams (49 total teams) = 10%
U15 - 2 teams (40 total teams) = 8%
U16 - 2 teams (30 total teams) = 7%
U17/U19 - 1 team (18 total teams) = 6%

By contrast, here's the number of teams the the 5 ECNL clubs have in LHGCL + ECNL in each age group, and what % of those total teams that represents:

U11 - 15 teams (30 total teams) = 50%
U12 - 14 teams (30 total teams) = 47%
U13 - 15 teams (29 total teams) = 52%
U14 - 23 teams (35 total teams) = 66%
U15 - 21 teams (33 total teams) = 64%
U16 - 18 teams (33 total teams) = 55%
U17 - 21 teams (32 total teams) = 66%

Hmmmmm...

 
 
bwgophers.....lets take it a bit further....

U11 Club | Total # of Teams listed on Website(pos. errors?) | # of teams in LHGCL | % of ECNL teams in LHGCL
FC Dallas |  9  | 5 | 55.56%
D'Feeters |  2  | 1 | 50.00%
Solar       |  7  | 2 | 28.57%
Sting       | 15 | 6 | 40.00%
Texans    |  4 | 2 | 50.00%
Total       | 37 | 16 | 43.24%

Total LHGCL spots - 30
Non-ECNL clubs in LGHCL - 14
 Representation of the ECNL (big club) in LHGCL - 53.33%

Take aways and Drilling it down:
1.  53.33% of LHGCL is composed of the ECNL Clubs
2.  43.24% of all of the ECNL clubs play in LGCHL.
3.  55.56% (5) of FC Dallas U11 teams play in the LHGCL & the other (4) FCD teams:  2 - PPL Div1, 1-PPL Div2, 1-Somewhere???
4.  ECNL clubs increase thier % each year in LHGCL (numerous factors can be said for this one)
5.  ECNL clubs decrease thier % in Non-LHGCL (move up or fade out?)

So i guess...it could be said that.... the money could be worth it if your child sticks it out on a mediocre ECNL team.....they may evenutally get to play(move up) to LHGCL (if they are good enough LOL)

SocDad,

I get where you are coming from.  I know I'm not the type to spend big club prices to be on a "mediocre team".  It is not my place to question how anybody spends their money so I say to each his/her own.   Let's face it we all spend money on something that others might think frivolous, and that is our decision.

But with that in mind I would love to see a fee structure like this.   I think it would be more representative of how things play out.   Not everyone has the same time or resources to commit.

http://www.rapidsyouthsoccer.org/Default.aspx?tabid=273810

maxskillz wrote:SocDad,

I get where you are coming from.  I know I'm not the type to spend big club prices to be on a "mediocre team".  It is not my place to question how anybody spends their money so I say to each his/her own.   Let's face it we all spend money on something that others might think frivolous, and that is our decision.

But with that in mind I would love to see a fee structure like this.   I think it would be more representative of how things play out.   Not everyone has the same time or resources to commit.

http://www.rapidsyouthsoccer.org/Default.aspx?tabid=273810

What I love about this website...is the ability to bounce ideas off each other.  My thinking today may change over time after hearing what others discuss.  I don't need to recreate the wheel...because that wheel has already been discussed on here somewhere.



Maxskills...
As for who's place it is to tell other people...of course your totally right...but I do want to know what everyone thinks.  My idea wasn't about telling people where to spend thier money, but as to "what would be thier reason why they chose to spend it that way", so I can make a better decision when/if I face that delima.  I bet I am not the only who has thought about this...so maybe were just putting it down in a  written form for others to use.  On the flip side, I then take that advice and try to apply it to my situtaion.  If I see logic in it...then I'll adopt it...if I don't...then it it goes by the way side.  But I guess (lol), in a sense it is kinda is telling people what to do?????(but oh well)

As for the link you sent (thanks)....that is kinda what I was leading to.....(someone already posted something like this and that it would'nt work)(Negative nancy's)


It takes topics/conversations like these to make parents/players get the most out of thier money and not to spend it frivioulsy(although some will do).  Yes, people will pay what the market will bear.  But WE are the Market.  So, if WE think that the current price is correct...then so be it....we pay it.

Just make sound judgements when writing your checks.

SocDad wrote:

maxskillz wrote:SocDad,

I get where you are coming from.  I know I'm not the type to spend big club prices to be on a "mediocre team".  It is not my place to question how anybody spends their money so I say to each his/her own.   Let's face it we all spend money on something that others might think frivolous, and that is our decision.

But with that in mind I would love to see a fee structure like this.   I think it would be more representative of how things play out.   Not everyone has the same time or resources to commit.

http://www.rapidsyouthsoccer.org/Default.aspx?tabid=273810

What I love about this website...is the ability to bounce ideas off each other.  My thinking today may change over time after hearing what others discuss.  I don't need to recreate the wheel...because that wheel has already been discussed on here somewhere.



Maxskills...
As for who's place it is to tell other people...of course your totally right...but I do want to know what everyone thinks.  My idea wasn't about telling people where to spend thier money, but as to "what would be thier reason why they chose to spend it that way", so I can make a better decision when/if I face that delima.  I bet I am not the only who has thought about this...so maybe were just putting it down in a  written form for others to use.  On the flip side, I then take that advice and try to apply it to my situtaion.  If I see logic in it...then I'll adopt it...if I don't...then it it goes by the way side.  But I guess (lol), in a sense it is kinda is telling people what to do?????(but oh well)

As for the link you sent (thanks)....that is kinda what I was leading to.....(someone already posted something like this and that it would'nt work)(Negative nancy's)


It takes topics/conversations like these to make parents/players get the most out of thier money and not to spend it frivioulsy(although some will do).  Yes, people will pay what the market will bear.  But WE are the Market.  So, if WE think that the current price is correct...then so be it....we pay it.

Just make sound judgements when writing your checks.

SocDad,

I get what you mean. My daughter has played against many big club teams, she has also guest played with them from time to time. I would agree that the fees don't necessarily guarantee a better soccer experience.

this is one of the oldest consumer arguments and will always be. The reason there is a Wal-Mart and a Nordstrom's is you can buy a jacket at either but one you will pay 49.99 and the other you will pay 199.99 at. Both good jackets and both can keep you warm but you expect more from N and usually you get more. There is a confidence in the purchase that the retailer will deliver a superior product and experience (or you simply like that you bought it from Nordstrom's and that makes you feel good). I think the same is true for club soccer; with a larger more successful club our expectation is they will deliver a better experience and I think in most cases they do (or we simply like saying we are X). Sometimes you get a good deal at Walmart and/or the jacket you buy there does what you expect or it may all you can afford or want to spend; that is the beauty of capitalism, the consumer is in control and it forces the providers to either be that good or go away; ask tornadoes, tfc, blackwatch, inter, and so on.