What is the Call? Offside Interpretation

I know several refs follow this forum. On one of the posts before I had questioned why they don't blow the whistle for an offside before players collide to eliminate needless collisions. This weekend I witnessed a play where the Offside Flag was up. The ball was being passed from the onside forward to an offside forward far post. The defender who does not know the other forward is in an offside position in trying to stop the pass deflects it in her own goal. Flag up, ball going directly to far post forward and not going in without redirection. CR briefly talks with AR and awards the goal. Coach disputes the call vigorously. It ended up being the first goal in a 2-1 loss. What was the correct call?

If the CR didn't blow the whistle, I would think it stands. How many times does the flag go up, and the offsides player isnt involved in the play, and the CR let's it play on because of that. Isn't this similar?

Not in my view.  The offside player became involved in the play when the pass was sent to them and the defender reacted to the pass.

In fact you will see many plays where players are celebrating a goal and after the CR sees the flag the goal is waived off.

First line of the Offside Law is......it is not an offense to be in an offside position.
The ball did not reach the offside attacker therefore the ref was correct to award the goal.
I understand the frustration but if the defender didn't know the forward was there then the end result still would have been an own goal!

The GK saw her and had started sliding to cover the other potential shot from the far side.  IMO this is a HUGE problem with the Law.  So you are saying the Ref can decide what the defender and/or GK was thinking?  I think that is a slippery slope.  Maybe she heard the GK call out the far side forward and wanted to stop the pass from reaching her.  

The onside forward didn't shoot but passed to a player who was in an offside position.  They gained an advantage from the player who was offside.  She would not make that pass without the forward there.

So you would allow a full speed collision since the forward had not yet touched the ball?

Since it deflected, one could determine the onside player shot instead of passed. Again, at this point the ref is determining what the onside player meant. Either way, its subjective. This time you were just on the wrong end of it.

The ref has no clue what the defender is thinking. That's the law. How many times do you see players in an offside position at free kicks? All the time trying to draw the defenders back. If the defender leaves it and the forward scores it's offside but the attacker didn't score the defender did and the forward didn't touch it and at the back post wasn't blocking the goalkeepers view so it's a goal

We should probably examine the offside rule on a basic level first before getting into wild scenarios.  For the record though I think it is a goal too.  The pass was meant for a player who was offside so the field went up appropriately but it did not make it to her.

Here is my question:
A forward is onside, meaning has a defender between her and the goalie/goal.  The ball is then kicked forward by a midfielder as a diagonal through ball to that forward.  Because the forward is fast and also knows that the pass is coming, she is able to make a better break on the ball and get to it first.  And then it is the forward with the ball, one on one with the goalie, with the defender chasing.  

But wait the flag went up.

Is it really offside?

No

I am a referee for Girl/Boy Classic, PPL and so on.
If your description was correct and I was the CR, I would have disallowed that goal since the offside player DID interfere with the play. I also could said she interfered with goal keeper.

TatonkaBurger wrote:We should probably examine the offside rule on a basic level first before getting into wild scenarios.  For the record though I think it is a goal too.  The pass was meant for a player who was offside so the field went up appropriately but it did not make it to her.

Here is my question:
A forward is onside, meaning has a defender between her and the goalie/goal.  The ball is then kicked forward by a midfielder as a diagonal through ball to that forward.  Because the forward is fast and also knows that the pass is coming, she is able to make a better break on the ball and get to it first.  And then it is the forward with the ball, one on one with the goalie, with the defender chasing.  

But wait the flag went up.

Is it really offside?

Only if it is a CL game and the AR is out of position AND not paying attention... so YES!!

Too far from the line to be a shot on goal.

If the Ref can't tell what the defender is thinking which I agree with you cannot assume they did not know the other forward was on a far post run.  This is what I have thought was a problem with the Offside Law for a long time.  As a GK or defender you will play things differently if there is another player on the other side than if not.  Do the laws allow for the offensive team to gain an advantage from a player offside?  Our difference is when does the Offside forward become involved in the play?  I would say once the ball is obviously sent their direction.  You prefer to wait longer potentially leading to player injury which I have seen.  Let the pros play until touch but there is no gain for the youth to risk injury to wait for touch.  You will note even MLB has tried to eliminate collisions like the youths who have a must slide rule for years.

I think it is completely subjective if its offsides or not.... did the player gain an advantage by being in an offside position? You could argue it both ways, and depending on which side you were on, would see it one way or the other. I tend to say it is an advantage if it was in the box, because of how its described being a far post cross... those are a defensive scramble, and being offsides is an advantage... kinda sorta.

TatonkaBurger wrote:We should probably examine the offside rule on a basic level first before getting into wild scenarios.  For the record though I think it is a goal too.  The pass was meant for a player who was offside so the field went up appropriately but it did not make it to her.

Here is my question:
A forward is onside, meaning has a defender between her and the goalie/goal.  The ball is then kicked forward by a midfielder as a diagonal through ball to that forward.  Because the forward is fast and also knows that the pass is coming, she is able to make a better break on the ball and get to it first.  And then it is the forward with the ball, one on one with the goalie, with the defender chasing.  

But wait the flag went up.

Is it really offside?

Nope.

cochese wrote:I think it is completely subjective if its offsides or not.... did the player gain an advantage by being in an offside position? You could argue it both ways, and depending on which side you were on, would see it one way or the other. I tend to say it is an advantage if it was in the box, because of how its described being a far post cross... those are a defensive scramble, and being offsides is an advantage... kinda sorta.

The problem your looking at is did the player gain an advantage by being in an offside position.
The ball never reach the attacker, the attacker never touched the ball so the offside attacker is not in the thought process of the ref because they never took part in the phase of play

ojx111 wrote:

TatonkaBurger wrote:We should probably examine the offside rule on a basic level first before getting into wild scenarios.  For the record though I think it is a goal too.  The pass was meant for a player who was offside so the field went up appropriately but it did not make it to her.

Here is my question:
A forward is onside, meaning has a defender between her and the goalie/goal.  The ball is then kicked forward by a midfielder as a diagonal through ball to that forward.  Because the forward is fast and also knows that the pass is coming, she is able to make a better break on the ball and get to it first.  And then it is the forward with the ball, one on one with the goalie, with the defender chasing.  

But wait the flag went up.

Is it really offside?

Nope.

Exactly but that flag goes up all the time whether the ball is on the ground or over the top in the air.  The AR needs to be watching the players when the ball is kicked and not what transpires after it makes it passed or to the players.  I cannot count how many times this is gotten completely wrong in games.  

By the way, I understand that being a ref is a thankless job but the AR needs to make sure he or she understands the rule and the game and can get that call right.  It is difficult rule (as the example in this thread shows) and is a huge part of the game.  We need to start getting it right.

Triumph FC wrote:

cochese wrote:I think it is completely subjective if its offsides or not.... did the player gain an advantage by being in an offside position? You could argue it both ways, and depending on which side you were on, would see it one way or the other. I tend to say it is an advantage if it was in the box, because of how its described being a far post cross... those are a defensive scramble, and being offsides is an advantage... kinda sorta.

The problem your looking at is did the player gain an advantage by being in an offside position.
The ball never reach the attacker, the attacker never touched the ball so the offside attacker is not in the thought process of the ref because they never took part in the phase of play

Well is it a "handball" or handling if a player didn't "intentionally" commit the offense?

cochese wrote:I think it is completely subjective if its offsides or not.... did the player gain an advantage by being in an offside position? You could argue it both ways, and depending on which side you were on, would see it one way or the other. I tend to say it is an advantage if it was in the box, because of how its described being a far post cross... those are a defensive scramble, and being offsides is an advantage... kinda sorta.

I agree an advantage was gained by the team of the player in the offside position. The defender and GK reacted to that player.

The defense was playing a high line (offside trap style) with all these players running toward goal. I just went back and watched it again and the onside forward was just outside the 18 box. With the defender running slightly to that forwards side of center and should have had an idea the other forward was to her left and was called out by the keeper. The other forward was ahead of the defender running toward goal from the far side. Ball is passed and GK starts sliding toward the other offside Forward. The defender sticks her foot out to stop the pass and one times it into the goal behind the keeper who is moving the other direction. Even if you say the defender did not know the forward was there the GK was reacting to the pass to defend the far side forward leaving the space where the shot was deflected into.

Had a similar thing a few weeks ago. The forward would make a run but would not try and get back which would leave her often 10 to 15 yards offside. The attaching midfield would get the ball and the centerbacks would see the forward then coming back to try and get onside.The problem as I saw it was that the centerbacks where moving to try and mark the offside forward because they did not want to chance the offside call not being made and resulting in a goal. If the forward was playing off the defenders shoulder that would be one thing but the problem is a midfielder with her head up would look at the offside forward as if to pass to her causing a reaction for the defense that caused space to open.To me even if a ball is played in the general direction ( In this case a onside player nearby) it should still result in an offside call because it was influencing the movement of the defenders. Before you ask no they wheren't doing it as a tactic just the forward was not getting back and it did not result in a shot or goal.

Triumph FC wrote:

cochese wrote:I think it is completely subjective if its offsides or not.... did the player gain an advantage by being in an offside position? You could argue it both ways, and depending on which side you were on, would see it one way or the other. I tend to say it is an advantage if it was in the box, because of how its described being a far post cross... those are a defensive scramble, and being offsides is an advantage... kinda sorta.

The problem your looking at is did the player gain an advantage by being in an offside position.
The ball never reach the attacker, the attacker never touched the ball so the offside attacker is not in the thought process of the ref because they never took part in the phase of play

Upon reading the FIFA interpretation of advantage... I think you are correct.

rockindaddy wrote:Had a similar thing a few weeks ago. The forward would make a run but would not try and get back which would leave her often 10 to 15 yards offside. The attaching midfield would get the ball and the centerbacks would see the forward then coming back to try and get onside.The problem as I saw it was that the centerbacks where moving to try and mark the offside forward because they did not want to chance the offside call not being made and resulting in a goal. If the  forward was playing off the defenders shoulder that would be one thing but the problem is a midfielder with her head up would look at the offside forward as if to pass to her causing a reaction for the defense that caused space to open.To me even if a ball is played in the general direction ( In this case a onside player nearby) it should still result in an offside call because it was influencing the movement of the defenders. Before you ask no they wheren't doing it as a tactic just the forward was not getting back and it did not result in a shot or goal.

Not the situation in the game I was watching this weekend but exactly what I am saying.  If the spirit of the rule is "the team with a player or players in an offside position should not gain an advantage from those players" I think the call should be no goal.  If the spirit of the rule is "The defense should know which players all around the field are offside or not and not react to those who are offside since that is the referees job" then award a goal.  I would think the spirit of the rule would be the former.  Most sports don't reward the team who has committed a foul/violation for doing so.

^this

Hard Practice wrote:I know several refs follow this forum.  On one of the posts before I had questioned why they don't blow the whistle for an offside before players collide to eliminate needless collisions.  This weekend I witnessed a play where the Offside Flag was up.  The ball was being passed from the onside forward to an offside forward far post.  The defender who does not know the other forward is in an offside position in trying to stop the pass deflects it in her own goal.  Flag up, ball going directly to far post forward and not going in without redirection.  CR briefly talks with AR and awards the goal.  Coach disputes the call vigorously.  It ended up being the first goal in a 2-1 loss.  What was the correct call?

If I'm reading this right, the flag for an offside infraction was already up before any of the rest of scenario occurred? If so, either the CR waived the AR down or didn't see the flag.

If the CR waived the flag down, and the pass was made to another player in an offside position, then in the opinion of the referee, was the player determined to be an "active participant" in the play. If so, then it should have been called back. If not, then it was rightly a goal.

Hard Practice wrote:

cochese wrote:I think it is completely subjective if its offsides or not.... did the player gain an advantage by being in an offside position? You could argue it both ways, and depending on which side you were on, would see it one way or the other. I tend to say it is an advantage if it was in the box, because of how its described being a far post cross... those are a defensive scramble, and being offsides is an advantage... kinda sorta.

I agree an advantage was gained by the team of the player in the offside position.  The defender and GK reacted to that player.  

The defense was playing a high line (offside trap style) with all these players running toward goal. I just went back and watched it again and the onside forward was just outside the 18 box.  With the defender running slightly to that forwards side of center and should have had an idea the other forward was to her left and was called out by the keeper.  The other forward was ahead of the defender running toward goal from the far side.  Ball is passed and  GK starts sliding toward the other offside Forward.  The defender sticks her foot out to stop the pass and one times it into the goal behind the keeper who is moving the other direction.  Even if you say the defender did not know the forward was there the GK was reacting to the pass to defend the far side forward leaving the space where the shot was deflected into.

It's not the player in the offside position's fault what the GK or defender THINKS she's going to do. As long as she is not interfering with the GK or a defender trying to make a play on the ball, then she has every right to stand wherever she wants.

rockindaddy wrote:Had a similar thing a few weeks ago. The forward would make a run but would not try and get back which would leave her often 10 to 15 yards offside. The attaching midfield would get the ball and the centerbacks would see the forward then coming back to try and get onside.The problem as I saw it was that the centerbacks where moving to try and mark the offside forward because they did not want to chance the offside call not being made and resulting in a goal. If the  forward was playing off the defenders shoulder that would be one thing but the problem is a midfielder with her head up would look at the offside forward as if to pass to her causing a reaction for the defense that caused space to open.To me even if a ball is played in the general direction ( In this case a onside player nearby) it should still result in an offside call because it was influencing the movement of the defenders. Before you ask no they wheren't doing it as a tactic just the forward was not getting back and it did not result in a shot or goal.

Then the defenders need to learn not to be influenced by where a forward stands. Trust me, a back line will ALWAYS look over at me as an AR to determine where my line is and check their positioning. Forwards will too. It's a constant game of inch up and back for forwards who try to play off the back shoulders and defenders trying to play a higher line.