Re: The bait and switch tactic

by KeeperCommander 12/10/17, 09:05 am

Lefty wrote:
KeeperCommander wrote:Marketing majors get paid more than female soccer players.

What is your point?Not a point just a smartass statement in response to why male athletes get paid more than female.

Does not seem to impact our ability to win world championships on the women's side! Not yet but it might. Possibility is all I am saying.

Nor does a similar 'win every game at the expense of teaching, training and development' at the youth level. Nothing to do with what I was talking about. Different topic that would be equally interesting though.

Input elite level athletes into the pipeline on the men's side and it will be different. Mediocre athletes = mediocre results. Input the best of the best into anything and you will get results. We just do not have the best mens soccer players on US soil, period. Never have and probably never will. Good but not great.

by Lefty 12/10/17, 03:46 pm

KeeperCommander wrote:
Lefty wrote:
KeeperCommander wrote:Marketing majors get paid more than female soccer players.
Because their is no consumer demand to watch women's soccer. I learned that concept in a marketing class.

What is your point?Not a point just a smartass statement in response to why male athletes get paid more than female. Learned why in my economics class in the period after my marketing class.

Does not seem to impact our ability to win world championships on the women's side! Not yet but it might. Possibility is all I am saying. How insightful.

Nor does a similar 'win every game at the expense of teaching, training and development' at the youth level. Nothing to do with what I was talking about. Different topic that would be equally interesting though.

Input elite level athletes into the pipeline on the men's side and it will be different. Mediocre athletes = mediocre results. Input the best of the best into anything and you will get results. We just do not have the best mens soccer players on US soil, period. Never have and probably never will. Good but not great.And why is that? Maybe because we do not have elite level athletes choosing soccer as their primary sport on the boys side?

by Medicine Man 13/10/17, 06:49 pm

Arenas is out the choirs of heaven are singing Amen. Back to the drawing board of bait and switch

by FierceLightning 15/10/17, 01:35 pm

[/quote]...and to say that DA has "nothing" to do with the state of the US Men's program and their performance last night seems a bit naive to me. It's certainly not the root of all of the problems, but it's a highly touted cog in the development system that doesn't appear to be delivering, so I don't know how you can unequivocally exonerate it. DA has been in place on the boys side for a decade now. In theory, the senior team and the U23's should be heavily populated with players in their early 20's who grew up in the DA, and if it was truly doing all that was promised, shouldn't we have qualified for Rio 2016 and Russia 2018?[/quote]

Let’s get a little clarity here. All these programs are not bad in themselves and there is a money grab going on. There is a money grab going on everywhere. Does anybody think a college degree should cause the indebtedness it currently does to our youth? Can we agree we live in a decadent time? These are all important societal issues, but none of these are the reasons the US Men are struggling in World Soccer.

It’s really only one reason. Our best men athlete in the US do not, I repeat, do not play soccer. They play football, basketball, baseball where they make some of the biggest money grabs around. The rest of the worlds best athletes play soccer...it’s pretty much all they have for their money grab.

by TxFutbal 15/10/17, 02:53 pm

I maybe give you baseball, but I disagree that basketball and football are taking the best soccer athletes away from the sport. There are only so many kickers a football team needs and last I checked, basketball teams are not recruiting soccer players mostly due to their height I would think. Also.. 6'6'' clunky basketball kids don't make for a soccer star unless it's the keeper we are talking about..Same goes for 300+ pound linemen, 200+ linebackers. They wouldn't last 3 minutes on a soccer field. Having played all sports in high school and 1 in college I can say with certainty soccer players are different because the sport requires different physical and mental demands. So I call BS on your statement that the best men athletes play a different sport. The US Mens program is in a state of suckishness because current stars played well past their prime and the DA program does not allow the boys/men to become the well rounded athletes they need to become because they are learning only how to move a soccer ball and think one certain way. If you read about the girls side, many of the current stars played multiple sports and learned how to be team mates vs. a plug and play machine player.

Somewhere along the way the boys soccer forgot that its the team that wins championships and championships are lost because of the individuals that don't know how to play as a team. Anyone and everyone who has ever played a team sport and has experienced victory and defeat at the highest level know this. I personally think pooling and plug and play players is what has ruined boys soccer.

by FierceLightning 15/10/17, 03:16 pm

I think you missed the point. 8 year olds aren’t 300 pounds. Take your focus off of football linesman and basketball centers. Look at the safety’s, running backs, receivers and corners. Then look at guards and forwards. Their average height is in the 6’ range. Ronaldo is 6’1”. A lot of top world soccer players are in this range. So your point is wanting.

World players with dreams of athletic riches don’t think about the American sports, they only have soccer. In the US, the kids of U23 age range today that are making millions in football, basketball and baseball have never had thoughts of riches at U8 in soccer.

When I see mid to low income kids playing pick up soccer at 10 instead of basketball, football and baseball, then the US men will win a World Cup in 12 years from then. Any other ruminations are nothing but mental gymnastics.

Hunger creates desire. The hunger in America is for other sports with soccer way down the line. Our cultures colllective interest is with these other sports and men’s soccer is not even close yet.

I see some changes in the younger ages so things could change, but not going to happen for a good 10+ years for the men.

by KeeperCommander 15/10/17, 07:04 pm

FierceLightning wrote:I think you missed the point. 8 year olds aren’t 300 pounds. Take your focus off of football linesman and basketball centers. Look at the safety’s, running backs, receivers and corners. Then look at guards and forwards. Their average height is in the 6’ range. Ronaldo is 6’1”. A lot of top world soccer players are in this range. So your point is wanting.

World players with dreams of athletic riches don’t think about the American sports, they only have soccer. In the US, the kids of U23 age range today that are making millions in football, basketball and baseball have never had thoughts of riches at U8 in soccer.

When I see mid to low income kids playing pick up soccer at 10 instead of basketball, football and baseball, then the US men will win a World Cup in 12 years from then. Any other ruminations are nothing but mental gymnastics.

Hunger creates desire. The hunger in America is for other sports with soccer way down the line. Our cultures colllective interest is with these other sports and men’s soccer is not even close yet.

I see some changes in the younger ages so things could change, but not going to happen for a good 10+ years for the men.

There is a ridiculous number of kids playing pick up soccer. That’s isn’t the point. The amount of money being made by US players is small unless they go over seas. There are tremendous baseball players that came from other countries but left to play in the US because of the money. The best golfers in the world come to play on US soil because of the money. It’s all about the money. As it should be. I am sure you picked your degree based on predictions of job salaries. Kids play what they are going to play. It just isn’t soccer in this country as in others. Do you think the parents of 250 lb bohemeths in England sit around on forums and wonder why they can’t get more kids playing football.

by FierceLightning 15/10/17, 07:29 pm

KeeperCommander wrote:
FierceLightning wrote:I think you missed the point. 8 year olds aren’t 300 pounds. Take your focus off of football linesman and basketball centers. Look at the safety’s, running backs, receivers and cornersjm . Then look at guards and forwards. Their average height is in the 6’ range. Ronaldo is 6’1”. A lot of top world soccer players are in this range. So your point is wanting.

World players with dreams of athletic riches don’t think about the American sports, they only have soccer. In the US, the kids of U23 age range today that are making millions in football, basketball and baseball have never had thoughts of riches at U8 in soccer.

When I see mid to low income kids playing pick up soccer at 10 instead of basketball, football and baseball, then the US men will win a World Cup in 12 years from then. Any other ruminations are nothing but mental gymnastics.

Hunger creates desire. The hunger in America is for other sports with soccer way down the line. Our cultures colllective interest is with these other sports and men’s soccer is not even close yet.

I see some changes in the younger ages so things could change, but not going to happen for a good 10+ years for the men.
There is a ridiculous number of kids playing pick up soccer. That’s isn’t the point. The amount of money being made by US players is small unless they go over seas. There are tremendous baseball players that came from other countries but left to play in the US because of the money. The best golfers in the world come to play on US soil because of the money. It’s all about the money. As it should be. I am sure you picked your degree based on predictions of job salaries. Kids play what they are going to play. It just isn’t soccer in this country as in others. Do you think the parents of 250 lb bohemeths in England sit around on forums and wonder why they can’t get more kids playing football.

Therefore, to my point, the best men athletes in the US don’t play soccer. Soccer in the US is the proverbial “red-headed step-child”. Most people, comparatively, really don’t care much for soccer. I can spell it out from here, but I’m guessing you understand this already.

by TxFutbal 16/10/17, 12:46 pm

FierceLightning wrote:I think you missed the point. 8 year olds aren’t 300 pounds. Take your focus off of football linesman and basketball centers. Look at the safety’s, running backs, receivers and corners. Then look at guards and forwards. Their average height is in the 6’ range. Ronaldo is 6’1”. A lot of top world soccer players are in this range. So your point is wanting.

World players with dreams of athletic riches don’t think about the American sports, they only have soccer. In the US, the kids of U23 age range today that are making millions in football, basketball and baseball have never had thoughts of riches at U8 in soccer.

When I see mid to low income kids playing pick up soccer at 10 instead of basketball, football and baseball, then the US men will win a World Cup in 12 years from then. Any other ruminations are nothing but mental gymnastics.

Hunger creates desire. The hunger in America is for other sports with soccer way down the line. Our cultures colllective interest is with these other sports and men’s soccer is not even close yet.

I see some changes in the younger ages so things could change, but not going to happen for a good 10+ years for the men.

Again I call BS.. There are a ton of athletes from other parts of the world in American Sports. Basketball, Hockey, and Baseball are full of them and Football is not void of foreign born players.

Also.. Ronaldo and Messi are #3 and #4 of the world's richest paid athletes. Merryweather and Pacqiano are #1 & #2. Beckham set the bar for riches paid to a player in the US at one time. Boxing is the world's richest sport for athletes with exceptional talent, followed by golf. 4 of the 8 world's sports leagues by revenue are soccer. Football is #1, baseball is #2, Premier League #3, NBA #4, NHL #5, Bundesliga #6, and La Liga #7. The highest paying athletic team in the world is FC Barcelona and has an average player salary of $8.7 mil a year. The average NBA salary is $6.2 mil, followed by MLB at $4.4, NHL $2.9 and NFL at $2.9

My point is the fame, riches, star power, etc are available to any aspiring young man who has the skills and dedication to make it to the world stage in soccer. Maybe these corners / WR / RBs choose football because the sport is easier and they don't have to work as hard?

The bigger question is whether our kids in the US have what it takes in dedication to make it in world's soccer elite ranks. We know it can be done because there are over 50 US born players playing in premier league today.

by FierceLightning 16/10/17, 01:01 pm

Yah all the stuff you posted is all minor to the real problem that is really easy to see.

The US’s collective culture doesn’t care about soccer on the men’s side. Especially in the mid to low income areas. Their minds are on football, basketball, baseball, and on and on. Soccer is way down the line. It’s the red-headed step-child in US sports. Thus my contention is the main reason we don’t dominate on the world stage for men’s soccer like we do with every other sport that we are the best in.

If men’s soccer ever gets to the point where it can compete with the consciousness of what football, basketball and baseball does on a local level with the youth into college arena, then and only then will our best men athletes start playing soccer in the US. And until then, the USMNT will always be mediocre at best, because it does not train and thus field our best athletes. They go to the more prestigious sports.

Hell, most top colleges that have very successful football, basketball and baseball programs don’t even offer men’s soccer.....

Men’s soccer in the US is a joke.

by TxFutbal 16/10/17, 01:13 pm

This hasn't been my experience. A co-worker son played for Texans, highschool soccer, and was the kicker for varsity highshool team. He took a soccer scholarship to a D2 school and gave up a D1 scholarship to be the football kicker (kickers aren't really football players anyway). His entire group of friends eat, breath, sleep soccer. I know this because I have attended many gatherings with my buddies to watch college football. The teenage boys were always in the other room watching soccer. Their clothes were soccer and all their discussions were soccer or girls related. What was so funny is a lot of the boys at the house were running backs, WR, corners, 2nd basemen, pitchers, and la cross players. Football is not what it use to be is my point. Soccer is more popular with the kids than you think. I think the baby boomers watch the football because that is what they grew up with and they still control a majority of the programming decisions and a large part of the economy. The millenials will have a greater say on the growth in popularity and earning ability for soccer in the US.

by Lefty 16/10/17, 01:14 pm

FierceLightning wrote:Yah all the stuff you posted is all minor to the real problem that is really easy to see.

The US’s collective culture doesn’t care about soccer on the men’s side. Especially in the mid to low income areas. Their minds are on football, basketball, baseball, and on and on. Soccer is way down the line. It’s the red-headed step-child in US sports. Thus my contention is the main reason we don’t dominate on the world stage for men’s soccer like we do with every other sport that we are the best in.

If men’s soccer ever gets to the point where it can compete with the consciousness of what football, basketball and baseball does on a local level with the youth into college arena, then and only then will our best men athletes start playing soccer in the US. And until then, the USMNT will always be mediocre at best, because it does not train and thus field our best athletes. They go to the more prestigious sports.

Hell, most top colleges that have very successful football, basketball and baseball programs don’t even offer men’s soccer.....

Men’s soccer in the US is a joke.

I would tend to agree with your points, but would add one more that probably impacts where the elite athletes focus.

SOCCER IS PAY TO PLAY IN THE US.

Would guess that there are as many or more people 'coaches' making their living off coaching middle school aged soccer players than there are football and basketball combined.

by FierceLightning 16/10/17, 02:18 pm

@TxFutbal ...... this may be true but it’s not going to happen for 10+ maybe even 20+ years.

You are not quite getting it. It’s the collective consciousness of the WHOLE culture that matters. I can tell you every kid in college today watches and cares for football and basketball on the local, college and professional level much more than soccer. By a huge margin. The best athletes may watch soccer but they are playing football, basketball and baseball. The very few will ever play at the top level ...... those are the best male athletes US has to offer.

I got a D2 soccer scholarship too and I sucked and still was a starter. I was no way one of the best athletes.

Most D1 top colleges don’t even offer men’s soccer. It’s a tragedy and a joke.

We as a national team in men’s soccer are a decade or more away form being competitive on the world stage.

These other soccer strong nations, soccer is THEIR whole collective consciousness over every other minor sport in their country. It just is not in the US and won’t be for a long time.

by Lefty 16/10/17, 03:32 pm

FierceLightning wrote:@TxFutbal ...... this may be true but it’s not going to happen for 10+ maybe even 20+ years.

You are not quite getting it. It’s the collective consciousness of the WHOLE culture that matters. I can tell you every kid in college today watches and cares for football and basketball on the local, college and professional level much more than soccer. By a huge margin. The best athletes may watch soccer but they are playing football, basketball and baseball. The very few will ever play at the top level ...... those are the best male athletes US has to offer.

I got a D2 soccer scholarship too and I sucked and still was a starter. I was no way one of the best athletes.

Most D1 top colleges don’t even offer men’s soccer. It’s a tragedy and a joke.

We as a national team in men’s soccer are a decade or more away form being competitive on the world stage.

These other soccer strong nations, soccer is THEIR whole collective consciousness over every other minor sport in their country. It just is not in the US and won’t be for a long time.

And there is potentially the answer to fixing the USMNT.

Instead of spending all the US soccer $ outside of the college system, funnel all the available $ into the collegiate system.

If you had every D1 college that fields a Football or BBall team started fielding a fully funded soccer team you probably get a very different caliber of athlete and USMNT in 10-15 years.

by Big Ern 16/10/17, 04:06 pm

Lefty wrote:
FierceLightning wrote:@TxFutbal ...... this may be true but it’s not going to happen for 10+ maybe even 20+ years.

You are not quite getting it. It’s the collective consciousness of the WHOLE culture that matters. I can tell you every kid in college today watches and cares for football and basketball on the local, college and professional level much more than soccer. By a huge margin. The best athletes may watch soccer but they are playing football, basketball and baseball. The very few will ever play at the top level ...... those are the best male athletes US has to offer.

I got a D2 soccer scholarship too and I sucked and still was a starter. I was no way one of the best athletes.

Most D1 top colleges don’t even offer men’s soccer. It’s a tragedy and a joke.

We as a national team in men’s soccer are a decade or more away form being competitive on the world stage.

These other soccer strong nations, soccer is THEIR whole collective consciousness over every other minor sport in their country. It just is not in the US and won’t be for a long time.

And there is potentially the answer to fixing the USMNT.

Instead of spending all the US soccer $ outside of the college system, funnel all the available $ into the collegiate system.

If you had every D1 college that fields a Football or BBall team started fielding a fully funded soccer team you probably get a very different caliber of athlete and USMNT in 10-15 years.

Title IX ... but that's a whole 'nother bag 'o cats we'd rather not let out.

by Guest 16/10/17, 04:21 pm

Lefty wrote:
And there is potentially the answer to fixing the USMNT.

Instead of spending all the US soccer $ outside of the college system, funnel all the available $ into the collegiate system.

If you had every D1 college that fields a Football or BBall team started fielding a fully funded soccer team you probably get a very different caliber of athlete and USMNT in 10-15 years.

Because of all of those national team players from other countries that are actually participating in the World Cup in 2018, that honed their craft playing college soccer in their home countries and/or the US, right?

by Lefty 16/10/17, 04:41 pm

bwgophers wrote:
Lefty wrote:
And there is potentially the answer to fixing the USMNT.

Instead of spending all the US soccer $ outside of the college system, funnel all the available $ into the collegiate system.

If you had every D1 college that fields a Football or BBall team started fielding a fully funded soccer team you probably get a very different caliber of athlete and USMNT in 10-15 years.

Because of all of those national team players from other countries that are actually participating in the World Cup in 2018, that honed their craft playing college soccer in their home countries and/or the US, right?

No because:
. you would get a total different caliber of athlete choosing to play soccer if there were large numbers of college full rides available
. you would have 1000's of additional players continuing to play and develop into their 20's (benefit of large #'s)
. it seems work on the women's side
. it seems to work in other college fully funded sports
. could control/limit # of internationals if using US Soccer $

Why try and mimic someone else's' way vs leveraging distinct advantages we (US) may have to do it a different way?

by Guest 16/10/17, 05:30 pm

Lefty wrote:
bwgophers wrote:
Lefty wrote:
And there is potentially the answer to fixing the USMNT.

Instead of spending all the US soccer $ outside of the college system, funnel all the available $ into the collegiate system.

If you had every D1 college that fields a Football or BBall team started fielding a fully funded soccer team you probably get a very different caliber of athlete and USMNT in 10-15 years.

Because of all of those national team players from other countries that are actually participating in the World Cup in 2018, that honed their craft playing college soccer in their home countries and/or the US, right?

No because:
. you would get a total different caliber of athlete choosing to play soccer if there were large numbers of college full rides available
. you would have 1000's of additional players continuing to play and develop into their 20's (benefit of large #'s)
. it seems work on the women's side
. it seems to work in other college fully funded sports
. could control/limit # of internationals if using US Soccer $

Why try and mimic someone else's' way vs leveraging distinct advantages we (US) may have to do it a different way?

Really? What sport other than Football, and maybe Women's Basketball is it working for these days?

NBA is rapidly going towards "one-and-dones" who only go to college because they can't go straight from HS, and international players that never played US college ball.

Is it really working for Women's soccer? Over the past 10 years, would you say the USWNT has separated itself farther from the rest of the world, or has the rest of the world actually started catching up?

MLB has only a small fraction of it's players coming through the college ranks.

Sorry, just not buying that argument...

by Medicine Man 17/10/17, 06:21 am

College coaches are recruiting oversees now the old bait and switch is catching up to us. Development is by the wayside.

Women's soccer is going to turn into the tennis programs at colleges where half the team is foreign. Can we stop this trend of greed and deception.

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