The Quiet Encouragement of Violence

Soccer violence among 13-14 year-old girls doesn't start with them. It's the quiet or passive approval sourced from one's coach or parents that is the real tragedy. As a parent, if you're not discouraging on-field violence, you've failed your daughter. And you've wasted your money.

As a coach, you determine your team's playing style. If you don't have the talent to compete in your division, it's unacceptable to "take out" other teams' players to level the playing field. Who knows what happens in a coach's pre-game or halftime huddle? Other than my daughter's team, I can say I have little clairvoyance. Until the game or half starts. Then, it's obvious what is acceptable to opposing team's coaches.

But to stand by and watch one of your players ruin an opposing team player's season by injury is absolutely primitive. And then classless when you don't check on that player or carry on after the game like nothing happened (by laughing and joking with that player).

Really, LHGCL should do something about this. There's little evidence that anything happens in most cases unless there is a call and/or red card. In many cases, the referee fails to call the game in a manner that discourages this kind of play. I get that nudges, shoulders, pushes are part of the game, but the line between those tactics and the one seen today is very wide.

What was "the one seen today"?

I was asked by Pete Rose and Dan Fouts not to divulge any more information lest I be struck by lightning.

We are willing to sacrifice you to know the truth! Spill it.

Overheard in the parking lot that a TX Lightning player my have taken out a Sting Angell player resulting in broken clavicle. That should not happen!

Actually this topic brings up a related question. How many cards, yellow or red, have been issued this year in all of 01 LHs D1, D2, D3? Heck I'd even give credit for a ref pulling out a playing card from the night before.

No cards, no incentive to alter the physical borderline play. If no one is policing the grey area, then it will always escalate to the point of players getting hurt.

I would have thought that LHs would be interested in protecting it's product, but that ship seems to be fading into the distance.

All of this falls on the ref's. I have a grade 8 and DD a 9 so not picking on them. The transition to ECNL has been night and day in regards to officiating.

1more_dd_dad wrote:All of this falls on the ref's.  I have a grade 8 and DD a 9 so not picking on them.  The transition to ECNL has been night and day in regards to officiating.

Did you really mean to say that "all of this falls on the refs" and that the coaches and the parents have nothing to do with the way some of the players play? Refs are not perfect and do not see everything. Furthermore, for most kids, any kind of encouragement or discouragement from their coaches and parents (before teenage years) have much more impact than those from refs. It is also interesting to note that one ECNL team received 6 cards while no other team received more than one card so far this season (assuming that the info provided on the ECNL site is accurate and up-to-date). I am not sure if that team's playing style will change much regardless of what the refs do.

PrimeTime wrote:Actually this topic brings up a related question.  How many cards, yellow or red, have been issued this year in all of 01 LHs D1, D2, D3?  Heck I'd even give credit for a ref pulling out a playing card from the night before.  

No cards, no incentive to alter the physical borderline play. If no one is policing the grey area, then it will always escalate to the point of players getting hurt.  

I would have thought that LHs would be interested in protecting it's product, but that ship seems to be fading into the distance.

Why can't Lake Highlands use the same method as the boys side...Classic League actually has an added column to the schedules called "misconduct".

http://events.gotsport.com/events/Default.aspx?EventID=39881

The first step to poor officiating resides with accountability.

In my opinion, coaches are the most culpable. Coaches dictate their teams' style of play whether it be possession, counterattack, or the dump & chase method. If they dictate that, they can also draw the line on violence.

Guessing that, outside of ECNL, there's a correlation between a team's talent and their tolerance or willingness to look the other way regarding violence.

In the case mentioned above - completely agree. Had not played them until this year and the reputation became fact. Much of the team is new this year, yet the style carries on.

It absolutely falls on the ref - I guess it can fall on the coach and the players but not as much as the ref.

In reality, it is a very quick fix. The refs need to start using cards as they weren't meant to be in the laws of the game. Persistent fouling - yellow card - keep fouling after the yellow and its a red. Reckless tackle that endangers another player - straight red.

If they would call a game like the laws say, the kids would adjust and play the game the way it is meant to be played.

travelin light wrote:

PrimeTime wrote:Actually this topic brings up a related question.  How many cards, yellow or red, have been issued this year in all of 01 LHs D1, D2, D3?  Heck I'd even give credit for a ref pulling out a playing card from the night before.  

No cards, no incentive to alter the physical borderline play. If no one is policing the grey area, then it will always escalate to the point of players getting hurt.  

I would have thought that LHs would be interested in protecting it's product, but that ship seems to be fading into the distance.

Why can't Lake Highlands use the same method as the boys side...Classic League actually has an added column to the schedules called "misconduct".

http://events.gotsport.com/events/Default.aspx?EventID=39881

The first step to poor officiating resides with accountability.

Like the idea, even better if they list by player like ECNL.

Jae, Yes.  It does not matter what the coaches allow or parents encourage.  If the ref's called the game the way they should the rough play would cease.

jae wrote:

1more_dd_dad wrote:All of this falls on the ref's.  I have a grade 8 and DD a 9 so not picking on them.  The transition to ECNL has been night and day in regards to officiating.

Did you really mean to say that "all of this falls on the refs" and that the coaches and the parents have nothing to do with the way some of the players play?  Refs are not perfect and do not see everything.  Furthermore, for most kids, any kind of encouragement or discouragement from their coaches and parents (before teenage years) have much more impact than those from refs.  It is also interesting to note that one ECNL team received 6 cards while no other team received more than one card so far this season (assuming that the info provided on the ECNL site is accurate and up-to-date).  I am not sure if that team's playing style will change much regardless of what the refs do.

I don't believe the blame or accountability is mutually exclusive between referees/linesmen and coaches/parents. There's enough to go around.

If the coaches/parents do their jobs, the referees can focus on officiating. Don't think referees should be solely responsible here although more "bookings" would be a welcome sight.

An injury caused should be more than a red card though. Games missed because of injury should be matched with games suspended for cause.

1more_dd_dad wrote:Jae, Yes.  It does not matter what the coaches allow or parents encourage.  If the ref's called the game the way they should the rough play would cease.

jae wrote:

1more_dd_dad wrote:All of this falls on the ref's.  I have a grade 8 and DD a 9 so not picking on them.  The transition to ECNL has been night and day in regards to officiating.

Did you really mean to say that "all of this falls on the refs" and that the coaches and the parents have nothing to do with the way some of the players play?  Refs are not perfect and do not see everything.  Furthermore, for most kids, any kind of encouragement or discouragement from their coaches and parents (before teenage years) have much more impact than those from refs.  It is also interesting to note that one ECNL team received 6 cards while no other team received more than one card so far this season (assuming that the info provided on the ECNL site is accurate and up-to-date).  I am not sure if that team's playing style will change much regardless of what the refs do.

Totally agree with 1more. The referees are the on-field generals and dictate how a game can/will be played. A game called close vs. play-on can benefit certain teams every time....no doubt!

If the refs start calling the fouls for what they are.....the level, severity and amount of the fouls should begin to drop. I firmly believe there will always be fouls in a game....however, anytime a team has 15+ fouls in a game...that's just too much and the refs have lost complete control of that game. Even if they are minor fouls, there still should be Yellow/Red cards for players that have multiple fouls.

If a physical player continues to get away with fouls from behind, running through a player...etc., etc....how do you ever expect that player to change that behavior? Two to three overly physical players on a team can change the entire course of a game...especially if the fouls are not being called. Not to mention...when a foul is not called...normally the ball ends up with the other team. Thus...you didn't get foul called and your team just lost the ball (double whammy).

Let one of those "overly physical" players sit out a game and I bet you would see that team/coach start managing their foul situation.

The Yellow Card is the best answer for Lake Highlands and managing those overly physical players/teams. Yellow is just a warning.

Two Yellow Card's means you have continued to foul and obviously didn't respect the first card you received.

Red card should only be given for flagrant fouls that ultimately change the direction of the game.

Big Poppy wrote:

1more_dd_dad wrote:Jae, Yes.  It does not matter what the coaches allow or parents encourage.  If the ref's called the game the way they should the rough play would cease.

jae wrote:

1more_dd_dad wrote:All of this falls on the ref's.  I have a grade 8 and DD a 9 so not picking on them.  The transition to ECNL has been night and day in regards to officiating.

Did you really mean to say that "all of this falls on the refs" and that the coaches and the parents have nothing to do with the way some of the players play?  Refs are not perfect and do not see everything.  Furthermore, for most kids, any kind of encouragement or discouragement from their coaches and parents (before teenage years) have much more impact than those from refs.  It is also interesting to note that one ECNL team received 6 cards while no other team received more than one card so far this season (assuming that the info provided on the ECNL site is accurate and up-to-date).  I am not sure if that team's playing style will change much regardless of what the refs do.

Totally agree with 1more.  The referees are the on-field generals and dictate how a game can/will be played.  A game called close vs. play-on can benefit certain teams every time....no doubt!

If the refs start calling the fouls for what they are.....the level, severity and amount of the fouls should begin to drop.  I firmly believe there will always be fouls in a game....however, anytime a team has 15+ fouls in a game...that's just too much and the refs have lost complete control of that game.  Even if they are minor fouls, there still should be Yellow/Red cards for players that have multiple fouls.  

If a physical player continues to get away with fouls from behind, running through a player...etc., etc....how do you ever expect that player to change that behavior?  Two to three overly physical players on a team can change the entire course of a game...especially if the fouls are not being called.  Not to mention...when a foul is not called...normally the ball ends up with the other team.  Thus...you didn't get foul called and your team just lost the ball (double whammy).

Let one of those "overly physical" players sit out a game and I bet you would see that team/coach start managing their foul situation.  

The Yellow Card is the best answer for Lake Highlands and managing those overly physical players/teams.  Yellow is just a warning.

Two Yellow Card's means you have continued to foul and obviously didn't respect the first card you received.

Red card should only be given for flagrant fouls that ultimately change the direction of the game.

For the most part, I don't think more cards will have a huge impact on the way the any specific individual player plays.  

Overly aggressive or physical players are not likely to change regardless of how many cards or disqualifications they suffer, as that is typically the only way they can compete and have an impact on the game.

What more cards and disqualifications on a regular basis will change, is the value proposition for those type of players for a coach and their willingness to have them on the team and risk playing down a player on a regular basis.  

Think hockey.  A team may carry a banger/enforcer or two, but you can't have a whole team of them.

Lefty wrote:

Big Poppy wrote:

1more_dd_dad wrote:Jae, Yes.  It does not matter what the coaches allow or parents encourage.  If the ref's called the game the way they should the rough play would cease.

jae wrote:

1more_dd_dad wrote:All of this falls on the ref's.  I have a grade 8 and DD a 9 so not picking on them.  The transition to ECNL has been night and day in regards to officiating.

Did you really mean to say that "all of this falls on the refs" and that the coaches and the parents have nothing to do with the way some of the players play?  Refs are not perfect and do not see everything.  Furthermore, for most kids, any kind of encouragement or discouragement from their coaches and parents (before teenage years) have much more impact than those from refs.  It is also interesting to note that one ECNL team received 6 cards while no other team received more than one card so far this season (assuming that the info provided on the ECNL site is accurate and up-to-date).  I am not sure if that team's playing style will change much regardless of what the refs do.

Totally agree with 1more.  The referees are the on-field generals and dictate how a game can/will be played.  A game called close vs. play-on can benefit certain teams every time....no doubt!

If the refs start calling the fouls for what they are.....the level, severity and amount of the fouls should begin to drop.  I firmly believe there will always be fouls in a game....however, anytime a team has 15+ fouls in a game...that's just too much and the refs have lost complete control of that game.  Even if they are minor fouls, there still should be Yellow/Red cards for players that have multiple fouls.  

If a physical player continues to get away with fouls from behind, running through a player...etc., etc....how do you ever expect that player to change that behavior?  Two to three overly physical players on a team can change the entire course of a game...especially if the fouls are not being called.  Not to mention...when a foul is not called...normally the ball ends up with the other team.  Thus...you didn't get foul called and your team just lost the ball (double whammy).

Let one of those "overly physical" players sit out a game and I bet you would see that team/coach start managing their foul situation.  

The Yellow Card is the best answer for Lake Highlands and managing those overly physical players/teams.  Yellow is just a warning.

Two Yellow Card's means you have continued to foul and obviously didn't respect the first card you received.

Red card should only be given for flagrant fouls that ultimately change the direction of the game.

For the most part, I don't think more cards will have a huge impact on the way the any specific individual player plays.  

Overly aggressive or physical players are not likely to change regardless of how many cards or disqualifications they suffer, as that is typically the only way they can compete and have an impact on the game.

What more cards and disqualifications on a regular basis will change, is the value proposition for those type of players for a coach and their willingness to have them on the team and risk playing down a player on a regular basis.  

Think hockey.  A team may carry a banger/enforcer or two, but you can't have a whole team of them.

Good point!

Cards would make a difference

I know parents come on here all the time and say soccer is a contact sport, get over the whining

this may be true

Will cards stop the physical play.........absolutely NOT

BUT

it will not reward those physical teams/players anymore, they will change some because they will be forced to play short on the field or the bench

I would like to see more cards, hell I would like to see any at our 03 level

If the fouls aren't punished, then there is no downside to fouling.

I have asked multiple Ref's why I don't see Red Cards. I've always gotten the same 2 answers.

1. "I don't want them to have to sit out the next game."

Terrific, they can take a swing at someone in the next game too.

2. "It's too much paperwork."

I have no respect for this answer. My translation of that answer is, "I'm too lazy to do my job, in fact I'm so lazy that I'm willing to sacrifice the safety of all these kids in order to safeguard my laziness."

I agree with most on here, especially the point about the influence of coaches and parents being most relevant BEFORE teenage years.

I do think the idea physical players are only physical because they lack skill only applies at lower levels. At the top level there is no delineation between them...many, many players are both very physical and very skilled and that combo is part of what makes them top players. Center backs HATE Diego Costa because he routinely mauls them more than they are accustomed to getting mauled by strikers...his skill is not in question.

Each ref has their own standard of what's allowable. In the absence of frequent assessments by experienced officials, that standard will continue to vary wildly from ref to ref. Some good ones, many more mediocre ones, and some atrocious ones...if LH can reduce or eliminate the refs that are so bad they endanger the kids, that's probably the best we can hope for. Problems like this get addressed with data. Start tracking injuries per ref, team, club, coach. Address the trends as needed.

Unfortunately, "cards" are after the damage has already been done and often not enough to discourage dangerous plays.  We, parents, pay thousands of $ to coaches to teach our kids "the beautiful game."

"If the ref's called the game the way they should the rough play would cease."
That is a BIG IF and we need to pay the refs much more before we hold them to higher standards.

Refs are there to enforce the rules (e.g., penalize dangerous/dirty plays) and the coaches are there to teach the kids how to play the game properly (e.g., no dangerous/dirty plays).

jae wrote:

Unfortunately, "cards" are after the damage has already been done and often not enough to discourage dangerous plays.  We, parents, pay thousands of $ to coaches to teach our kids "the beautiful game."

"If the ref's called the game the way they should the rough play would cease."
That is a BIG IF and we need to pay the refs much more before we hold them to higher standards.

Refs are there to enforce the rules (e.g., penalize dangerous/dirty plays) and the coaches are there to teach the kids how to play the game properly (e.g., no dangerous/dirty plays).

Well said, Jae. Agree wholeheartedly...To address the previous point from Haterinho, the law of supply and demand for officials makes penalizing them difficult.

In professional soccer, I agree with the statement that "all of this falls on the ref's."  Since we are talking about kids soccer, I tend to focus more on teaching, which falls squarely on the coaches and parents, and less on penalizing or discouraging dirty/dangerous plays.

Double posting removed.