Re: The Quiet Encouragement of Violence

by Lefty 19/10/14, 03:18 pm

thebox wrote:
10sDad wrote:So in your expert opinion, my dd should have chased her down with teammates in tow and pummeled the girl? 'Cuz it's the North Texas way? Got it.

I really think you are missing the point because your talking about a 10 year old player who's coach should be the one she turns to on the field to handle it. Her coach should have exposed that situation to the refs and dealt with it if it happened as you stated. Parents are often bias and not as objective as they believe they are. Thats ok, its their daughter out there but As they get older, that coach should handle that situation completely if she "still loves the game." Dealing with issues like this is part of a player development believe it or not. Making that claim on a u14 board is 'wasting your breath" where you should be taking issue with her coach and asking why they did or what they are going to do. They can write a formal complaint to the league on lack of ref protection of the player on the field. As they get older, thats usually just handled on the field.

So in your opinion what would be the proper way at U14+ for the DD and her teammates to handle it on the field? i.e. a clean punch to the face after the play happens. What would you suggest they do to the player to handle it on the field?

by thebox 19/10/14, 04:56 pm

Let the coach deal with it and if he doesn't, take it to the club director etc. Its a lot of bs where all the u14 girls usually respect each other as the ones that used to do stupid shit like that learned that might not be a good idea. Don't start shit, there won't be shit....pretty simple and effective actually.

by thebox 19/10/14, 05:00 pm

There is a difference between actual hard game/ball fouls and punches. A big difference that most u14 girls understand and know by experience. Your just not ok with your daughter getting punched and I don't blame you and it has no place in soccer. Girls usually work that type of thing out on the field and play the game. Your daughters 10, give it some time and watch what happens without your intervention.

by 10sDad 19/10/14, 05:06 pm

So...in your second attempt to give expert advice, you suggested that her coach should have informed the referee as to what the referee did not see....yeah....ummmm...that will end well...as usual.

Or if that didn't work, to write a letter? Yeah...that will work. :-/

Look...this crap happens. I am not looking for an apology, a post game PK or anything else. There is nothing that can be done now except to be like my DD...just be stunned for a second, and then continue to play. Again, the ref didn't see it, so...there's that.

Back on point, frustration fouls, intentional elbows, and other things that may be sugar-coated as "intimidation" happen. For referees to not call things (or resist pulling cards) because they are convinced it is out of clumsiness and that little girls couldn't possibly be doing this stuff on purpose is pure idiocy. It happens. I was drawn into this tread by the title, which due to lack of enforcement (especially at the younger ages), is absolutely true. "The judgement of the referee" as stated in the LOTG, should not be influenced by the age or gender of the players....a foul is a foul, a card is a card. Period. Enforce it, and the retribution fouls decrease - and injuries decrease.

by Lefty 19/10/14, 05:41 pm

thebox wrote:Let the coach deal with it and if he doesn't, take it to the club director etc. Its a lot of bs where all the u14 girls usually respect each other as the ones that used to do stupid shit like that learned that might not be a good idea. Don't start shit, there won't be shit....pretty simple and effective actually.

You are crawfishing to avoid answering the question.

You made the big bold statement that it is usually handled by the players on the field. Tell us what you feel is appropriate.

by thebox 19/10/14, 05:47 pm

Im not a u14 player and why would I even go there? If the coach can't handle his players, refs and parents then thats a big problem. You should start there, not ask someone to tell you what is appropriate, after an inappropriate fist punch is delivered. What do you think is appropriate? Let the girls handle it on the field, they usually do anyway. You don't see a lot of fist punching going on in U14. You see younger players not understand what their parents or others are encouraging them to do and get emotionally wound up just to do stupid things at age 10. You going to ask me what is appropriate? Let the coach handle it or find one that will.

by haterinho 19/10/14, 05:55 pm

Lefty wrote:
thebox wrote:Let the coach deal with it and if he doesn't, take it to the club director etc. Its a lot of bs where all the u14 girls usually respect each other as the ones that used to do stupid shit like that learned that might not be a good idea. Don't start shit, there won't be shit....pretty simple and effective actually.

You are crawfishing to avoid answering the question.

You made the big bold statement that it should be handled by the players on the field. Tell us what you feel is appropriate.

It's no different than a pitcher intentionally hitting a batter inside. Everyone knows what's eventually coming when the other pitcher takes the mound. It's part of the game. Maybe not at u11, but in a few years, the players will understand boundaries and repercussions.

As for a ten year old girl getting punched with a right hook so hard that it cut and bruised her face....and none of the 3 refs saw it, coach didn't see it or say anything, and said ten year old only paused briefly and then ran off merrily continuing her game? No one on the sideline got after the ref? Only dad saw it, but even he said nothing?

Not saying it didn't happen, but parents are serial exaggerators when it comes to their own kid...Sounds far fetched to me.

by jae 19/10/14, 06:00 pm

I will state it one more time...

Refs are there to make sure that the rules are being followed and enforced (only) during the game, and the coaches/parents are there to teach the kids about soccer and proper behavior during the game as well as outside the game.

by thebox 19/10/14, 06:02 pm

It's no different than a pitcher intentionally hitting a batter inside. Everyone knows what's eventually coming when the other pitcher takes the mound. It's part of the game. Maybe not at u11, but in a few years, the players will understand boundaries and repercussions.

Exactly, they learn what is appropriate and what is not in their development over the next few years and that will guide them the rest of their soccer years. Great analogy actually. U11 is still to young for them to grasp all that is going on yet.

by Coach&Ref 19/10/14, 06:17 pm

10sDad wrote:"The judgement of the referee" as stated in the LOTG, should not be influenced by the age or gender of the players.....

Please refer me to the LOTG that uses that statement. If it is in the Advice to Referees, please link that too. If that quoted phrase exists anywhere, please link it. scratch

At U14, it really depends on the personality of the individual girls. Mostly the team will take care of themselves by quite a few girls telling their own teammate with an attitude to be quiet and don't say anything. Quite a few times the coach will be screaming the same thing, because he knows that player has a short fuse. It doesn't take more than one or two (slightly) aggressive incidents for us to know who to keep an eye on and during halftime, we will discuss the number of the players we need to watch. Also, before the game, I appoint a girl to let me know, respectfully, if myself or my ARs might be missing anything. Quite often they do and I thank them and take their advice. Sometimes, we can't catch ponytail pulls, foot stomps, etc. but with the players talking to us politely, we will watch those players more carefully.

It is important for CRs to be in the appropriate position at all times! I hate to say it, but there are MANY "center circle" refs that I don't think can possibly call things with a high degree of accuracy in his quadrant without being around the play. I really have a disdain for some refs I am paired with that won't run. I don't care if the teams play kickball, you still have to run!

I don't ref your age group, but I have said in the general discussion about referees, why I don't think there are many cards in your age group.

by Coach&Ref 19/10/14, 06:39 pm

jae wrote:I will state it one more time...

Refs are there to make sure that the rules are being followed and enforced (only) during the game, and the coaches/parents are there to teach the kids soccer and proper behavior during the game as well as outside the game.

There are a couple of things wrong about this:

Refs are there to make sure that the rules are being followed and enforced (only) during the game

Refs are there to enforce the rules both on AND off the pitch. Just because a player or spectator isn't on the pitch doesn't mean the ref cannot take action against them. They have control until the entire complex is cleared.

parents are there to teach the kids soccer

I wish this was the case, but a VAST majority don't even know the LOTG.

ex: There is NO such thing as OFFSIDES. The player is either in an OFFSIDE POSITION or is guilty of an OFFSIDE infraction. There is so much that goes into whether a player is guilty of an infraction that parents generally have ZERO clue about. (ex. Was the player involved in active play, did the player in the offside position interfere with a defender trying to make the play, etc. etc.) I suggest reading up on this.

There is no such thing as a "HANDBALL". It is called "HANDLING" and RARELY do parents understand the criteria that goes into judging that offense. There is a large section of Advice to Referees that discusses these factors.

There is no such thing as a "HIGH KICK". There is only "DANGEROUS PLAY".

These are just a few things that parents and coaches just scream about during games. Please either read up on the LOTG or just let the refs call it, whether he misses something or not. I can tell you that there are probably no refs who care about who wins or loses.

by jae 19/10/14, 07:41 pm

How is "during the game" different from "on and off the pitch"? Refs are not at practices when coaches are teaching illegal slide tackles and encouraging jersey holding/pulling, etc. Refs are not in the car with the kid when the parents are not reprimanding the kid for sucker punching or pulling jerseys.

While I agree that most parents do not know the rules of the game (especially terminologies that you've outlined), they should know what "dirty" or "dangerous" plays look like (which is what we are talking about as opposed to parents' less educated yelling during matches). Also, coaches should know all the terminologies you've outlined. If not, parents should find coaches who know the rules of the game.

I continue to assert that coaches and parents should do more to teach their kids during practices and other occasions when they are not playing games as opposed to relaying 100% on refs during games only.

by Coach&Ref 19/10/14, 07:46 pm

jae wrote:How is "during the game" different from "on and off the pitch"? Refs are not at practices when coaches are teaching illegal slide tackles and encouraging jersey holding/pulling, etc. Refs are not in the car with the kids when parents not reprimanding the kid for sucker punching or pulling jerseys.

While I agree that most parents do not know the rules of the game (especially terminologies that you've outlined), they should know what "dirty" or "dangerous" plays look like (which is what we are talking about as opposed to their less educated yelling during matches). Also, coaches should know all the terminologies you've outlined. If not, parents should find coaches who know the rules of the game.

I continue to assert that coaches and parents should do more to teach their kids during practices and other occasions when they are not playing games as opposed to relaying 100% refs during games only.

Ya jae. I forgot to give you credit for the "teaching proper behavior" part. That responsibility falls on exactly who you said it does.

by aTmAg 19/10/14, 08:42 pm

Just because a parent says "handball" or "offsides" class not mean they dont know of the term "handling" or "offside position". It is just easier to say the former over the latter.

by Gunner9 19/10/14, 09:00 pm

There are people who've been in the game at the very top levels for a long time who still say handball and high kick. Or, horrors, linesman. Who gives a damn?

That's just what we need. More didactic referees focused on what they HEAR, rather than what they don't SEE. And keep initiating the young ones into the "Parents are Idiots" club. This way they always have a default position that keeps them from ever getting any better. Well done. Rolling Eyes

by Coach&Ref 19/10/14, 09:13 pm

Gunner9 wrote:There are people who've been in the game at the very top levels for a long time who still say handball and high kick. Or, horrors, linesman. Who gives a damn?

That's just what we need. More didactic referees focused on what they HEAR, rather than what they don't SEE. And keep initiating the young ones into the "Parents are Idiots" club. This way they always have a default position that keeps them from ever getting any better. Well done.

Are you trying to get their attention, so they don't SEE whats going on because they are busy HEARING you? How about not talking and making yourselves look like idiots? Why do you NEED to yell anything? Do you think you are going to change the outcome of the call? What are you trying to do other than get your coach and yourselves thrown out? scratch

Wise man once said, "Better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."

I had a great game last weekend with a U17 boys' team who had a mom yelling at her son about what to do. He runs over to the sideline and yells, "Mom, just shut up!" I wish more kids would do the same. cheers

by aTmAg 19/10/14, 09:19 pm

Some parents are idiots, but some refs are too. Parents indirectly pay refs, but refs do not pay parents. When we hire somebody to do something and they screw up, then we usually will say something about it. (I'm not talking young refs you see at rec games and stuff).

by Coach&Ref 19/10/14, 09:38 pm

aTmAg wrote:Some parents are idiots, but some refs are too. Amen! Parents indirectly pay refs, but refs do not pay parents. I think parents pay the club which include the fees which are set by the league, who then assign and pay the refs. It's the league's fault for bad refs! When we hire somebody to do something and they screw up, then we usually will say something about it. (I'm not talking young refs you see at rec games and stuff). Please don't!

by aTmAg 19/10/14, 10:07 pm

But if the ref messed up, then should they be above criticism? If a nurse was doing something wrong to my kid (not even life threatening, let's say putting a cast on the wrong arm), I would certainly say something to that nurse. I wouldn't just hold my tounge and file a formal complaint with the hospital the next day.

by Coach&Ref 19/10/14, 10:23 pm

aTmAg wrote:But if the ref messed up, then should they be above criticism? If a nurse was doing something wrong to my kid (not even life threatening, let's say putting a cast on the wrong arm), I would certainly say something to that nurse. I wouldn't just hold my tounge and file a formal complaint with the hospital the next day.

Some refs are standoffish, but if a parent asks me about a call clarification in a civil/polite tone, then I really don't mind answering it. If I'm the linesman, a parent or two per game will ask what the call was that the CR called. I might have an idea and give my opinion, but usually the CR had the better view.

I don't mind if a parent or coach asks me, in the aforementioned tone, to explain to him what the call was that I saw. I have no problem answering. Like I said, some refs do have a problem with it and hate to have their judgments questioned.

Quite a few of the questions I answer about a foul, centers around me applying the advantage rule. I simply explain that the team held the ball and had more to gain by applying advantage, than to stop play for a free kick. If I do apply advantage and the foul deserved a card, I will address it at the next stoppage. As soon as a parent or coach understands this, then it usually is no problem.

Just arguing with a call even though a ref has been nice enough to provide an explanation, leads him to not be inclined to answer any more.

by aTmAg 20/10/14, 08:12 am

I think once main cause of parent yelling is when a foul occurs and the ref silently allows advantage to play out. Because parents have no way of knowing whether or not the ref ignored/missed the foul or is allowing advantage. So they yell. Then when the ref does blows his whistle after advantage is lost, many parents will think that their yelling convinced the ref to blow their whistle, and it only re-enforces more yelling. Even worse, refs sometimes reflexively think that parents are idiots and yell back. That only makes it worse. It's like a waiter yelling at a customer who complained his food was cold.

I think the best refs I have seen are the ones who explain what's going on while it is occurring. They yell during the game that a tackle was clean, that they are allowing advantage, that a "handball' was not "handling", etc. That way they preempt the parents before they have a chance to yell, and reenforce that the ref does indeed know what he is doing. I think silence is probably the exact wrong thing to do. You don't want to get in the habit of answering every parent complaint or question, because that encourages more complaints and questions. So yell the answers out before the parents have a chance to complain or ask.

by Hard Practice 20/10/14, 10:01 am

aTmAg - Interesting take I had not thought of. The delayed call may make the parents think they had an influence and yell for more calls. Lots of other good comments.

As I mentioned on another thread below some of the reasons I think for the escalation of rough play;
Two teams of different styles are playing the physical team continues to push the envelope and with its physical play has gained an edge in the run of play. The official seems reluctant to call most of these fouls for some reason;
1. To not slow down the game,
2. because of laziness,
3. because of lack of knowledge.
4. None of the above

Now a player from the finesse team has had enough or been encouraged by a coach or parent to step up. She makes a strong physical challenge deserving a foul but not cheap shot and is called. Hardly seems fair but now that team finesse has stepped up the official starts to call it like it should have been all along. I have noticed this happen in multiple sports.

I think it is beneficial to have a player on a team willing to step up and be an enforcer like hockey. Sometimes that is the only way to protect 10sDD or get the refs to start making calls. When they see a 6' tall player paying them a visit they may decide to change their tune. No cheap shots are necessary.

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