The Quiet Encouragement of Violence

Double posting removed.

allhatnocattle wrote:To address the previous point from Haterinho, the law of supply and demand for officials makes penalizing them difficult.  

It's not so much punishment as defining culture and setting standards. Really no different than business - can't manage what you can't measure, and once people are aware you're measuring, behavior is usually impacted straight away.

Right now what's measured may actually be contributing to opposite outcomes from what we're after regarding player safety.

Refs have to write down yellow cards...player #, time of occurence and code indicating the offense. For a red card, it really is a bunch of extra paperwork, for a job that doesn't pay much in the first place.
Assigners see a ref doling out tons of cards? It can be taken as a sign the ref can't control games, leading to the ref getting fewer games or lower level games (i.e. less $$$).

Does anyone aggregate this data over time, by official, year over year?  

If we truly have serious concerns about player safety, why not put one extra box with two lines on the ref's sheet. Make them write the # of times a trainer was called for an injured player for each team. All the other info is already there, and Writing down those two additional #s now lets you trend injury rates, correlate injury rates to cards given, and tell which officials, coaches, teams
and clubs are most often involved.

Injuries are a part of the sport...can and will happen with and without contact. But without data, all we have is anecdotal stories from parents. As the many years this same issue has been rehashed has shown us - that's not enough for LH to make any changes.

Sometimes we have more than anecdotes- such as video- HD video of collisions, fouls, yellow cards, no calls, etc. Video clips of these incidents can be helpful in teaching refs and also players, but it takes some work in editing and then you need a willing audience with the ability to modify behavior.

Just Curious wrote:
I would like to see more cards, hell I would like to see any at our 03 level

Centers are getting $40-60 a game.  A lot of people would gladly do the paperwork for $25-35 per hour...

haterinho wrote:

allhatnocattle wrote:To address the previous point from Haterinho, the law of supply and demand for officials makes penalizing them difficult.  

It's not so much punishment as defining culture and setting standards. Really no different than business - can't manage what you can't measure, and once people are aware you're measuring, behavior is usually impacted straight away.

Right now what's measured may actually be contributing to opposite outcomes from what we're after regarding player safety.

Refs have to write down yellow cards...player #, time of occurence and code indicating the offense. For a red card, it really is a bunch of extra paperwork, for a job that doesn't pay much in the first place.
Assigners see a ref doling out tons of cards? It can be taken as a sign the ref can't control games, leading to the ref getting fewer games or lower level games (i.e. less $$$).

Does anyone aggregate this data over time, by official, year over year?  

If we truly have serious concerns about player safety, why not put one extra box with two lines on the ref's sheet. Make them write the # of times a trainer was called for an injured player for each team. All the other info is already there, and Writing down those two additional #s now lets you trend injury rates, correlate injury rates to cards given, and tell which officials, coaches, teams
and clubs are most often involved.

Injuries are a part of the sport...can and will happen with and without contact. But without data, all we have is anecdotal stories from parents. As the many years this same issue has been rehashed has shown us - that's not enough for LH to make any changes.

RightWingDad wrote:

Just Curious wrote:
I would like to see more cards, hell I would like to see any at our 03 level

no kidding, hard elbow to the back, no card, flat out trip from behind no card, on and on...

1more_dd_dad wrote:Centers are getting $40-60 a game.  A lot of people would gladly do the paperwork for $25-35 per hour...

haterinho wrote:

allhatnocattle wrote:To address the previous point from Haterinho, the law of supply and demand for officials makes penalizing them difficult.  

It's not so much punishment as defining culture and setting standards. Really no different than business - can't manage what you can't measure, and once people are aware you're measuring, behavior is usually impacted straight away.

Right now what's measured may actually be contributing to opposite outcomes from what we're after regarding player safety.




Refs have to write down yellow cards...player #, time of occurence and code indicating the offense. For a red card, it really is a bunch of extra paperwork, for a job that doesn't pay much in the first place.
Assigners see a ref doling out tons of cards? It can be taken as a sign the ref can't control games, leading to the ref getting fewer games or lower level games (i.e. less $$$).

Does anyone aggregate this data over time, by official, year over year?  

If we truly have serious concerns about player safety, why not put one extra box with two lines on the ref's sheet. Make them write the # of times a trainer was called for an injured player for each team. All the other info is already there, and Writing down those two additional #s now lets you trend injury rates, correlate injury rates to cards given, and tell which officials, coaches, teams
and clubs are most often involved.

Injuries are a part of the sport...can and will happen with and without contact. But without data, all we have is anecdotal stories from parents. As the many years this same issue has been rehashed has shown us - that's not enough for LH to make any changes.

Here's a thought for you, instead of putting the paper work on the referees place it back on the club coach and team to submitt document on website, pay the fine, and sit the player. Fine increase as team accumulate red cards. Yellow accumulation also submitted by the team via website is punishable after 3 on game suspension. Remove the paper work from the referees and put it back on the teams.

I like that idea. Have both teams sign the paper work for checks and balances

The team managers already do the paper work. It is possible that the refs also do paper work but I would be surprised, since game reports are given back to managers at the end of the game. Yellow cards/red cards and such in Lake Highlands are self-reported/monitored. The worst thing that happens today in a game is for the ref to give a yellow card, since the player then knows they will not receive another one for the rest of the game. They are free to foul at will. The only people who pay for yellow cards at this point are the managers who have to do the paper work. Not sure why refs aren't willing to pull the second yellow card, but having watched Lake Highlands soccer for 10 years through multiple daughters I have yet to see it done.

For our team, the "paperwork" consists of taking a photo of the game card after the game (which includes yellow or red card info) and sending it via text message to the division commissioner. That's all we have to do.

Does it work? Not sure, but for one of our games, the other team had a suspended player (suspensions are indicated on the game cards). I have seen several yellow catds given this year- although there should have been a few more- especially for an intentional trip or push from behind to stop an attacker rapidly advancing toward the goal.

Big, athletic, violent players succeed in NTX soccer. Smaller, skilled players are easily knocked off the ball by the bigger players, sometimes cleanly, most times not. Refs don't call it, and parents get thrown out for pointing out the obvious.
Over the years between U-11 and U-13, the smaller players leave the game for "other interests", leaving the big, athletic violent players. When a big player finally acquires mediocre skills, they are regarded as a great player, when if the smaller player were allowed to develop, they could be a potential "genius" player (like a Marta or Messi). But alas, they are literally shoved out of relevance early in their soccer careers. Some may say "they didn't love the game enough" - but who would love to play a game where your skills and desire are irrelavant due only to your lack of physical girth at U-11? Loving the game almost becomes an abusive relationship for the smaller player in NTX...eventually, the injuries and drama becomes too much to overcome for love.

Hooligan wrote:Big, athletic, violent players succeed in NTX soccer.  Smaller, skilled players are easily knocked off the ball by the bigger players, sometimes cleanly, most times not.  Refs don't call it, and parents get thrown out for pointing out the obvious.  
Over the years between U-11 and U-13, the smaller players leave the game for "other interests", leaving the big, athletic violent players.  When a big player finally acquires mediocre skills, they are regarded as a great player, when if the smaller player were allowed to develop, they could be a potential "genius" player (like a Marta or Messi).  But alas, they are literally shoved out of relevance early in their soccer careers.  Some may say "they didn't love the game enough" - but who would love to play a game where your skills and desire are irrelavant due only to your lack of physical girth at U-11?  Loving the game almost becomes an abusive relationship for the smaller player in NTX...eventually, the injuries and drama becomes too much to overcome for love.

i agree, skill is often overlooked in the hunt for the big, tall fast girl. we have too much of an american outlook on soccer and combine that with an extreme reluctance to issue cards, we have mediocrity..

Here is an idea... Perhaps REFS are reluctant to issue RED cards because the punishment is TOO severe. If players could more easily be ejected from a game with red card consequences without the next game sit out, fines, and discipline hearings, refs might be more likely to act. As it is, a ref wants to be ABOSLUTLY sure due to the gravity of the consequences.

This would empower the refs to provide a more powerful short term consequence teams will want to still avoid without the extreme gap that exists between caution and red today.

MakeTheRun, you must turn your private message feature on before anyone can respond to you.

Hooligan wrote:Big, athletic, violent players succeed in NTX soccer.  Smaller, skilled players are easily knocked off the ball by the bigger players, sometimes cleanly, most times not.  Refs don't call it, and parents get thrown out for pointing out the obvious.  
Over the years between U-11 and U-13, the smaller players leave the game for "other interests", leaving the big, athletic violent players.  When a big player finally acquires mediocre skills, they are regarded as a great player, when if the smaller player were allowed to develop, they could be a potential "genius" player (like a Marta or Messi).  But alas, they are literally shoved out of relevance early in their soccer careers.  Some may say "they didn't love the game enough" - but who would love to play a game where your skills and desire are irrelavant due only to your lack of physical girth at U-11?  Loving the game almost becomes an abusive relationship for the smaller player in NTX...eventually, the injuries and drama becomes too much to overcome for love.

Whoa is Me!! Whoa is me!!

I guess it always help to vent.... But since I am on both sides on the fence on this issue... Just a reminder that there is ONLY 3 or 4 Refs who are reading this.. And they're 50 or 100 times more Refs who could give a poop about what parents think than they're parents venting in here... Not saying parents don't have some very good concerns, but just reminding you of what is actually going on in here.... And to Hooligan's point (ironic handle BTW). This NTX Select soccer stuff is not the only way to get it done. D1 U16 has a starter right now who had never played Club before... So where there is a will there is a way to get your little super start to the finish line..

Or just gripe about about it in here... At least some Refs are listening..

soccersounder wrote:

Hooligan wrote:Big, athletic, violent players succeed in NTX soccer.  Smaller, skilled players are easily knocked off the ball by the bigger players, sometimes cleanly, most times not.  Refs don't call it, and parents get thrown out for pointing out the obvious.  
Over the years between U-11 and U-13, the smaller players leave the game for "other interests", leaving the big, athletic violent players.  When a big player finally acquires mediocre skills, they are regarded as a great player, when if the smaller player were allowed to develop, they could be a potential "genius" player (like a Marta or Messi).  But alas, they are literally shoved out of relevance early in their soccer careers.  Some may say "they didn't love the game enough" - but who would love to play a game where your skills and desire are irrelavant due only to your lack of physical girth at U-11?  Loving the game almost becomes an abusive relationship for the smaller player in NTX...eventually, the injuries and drama becomes too much to overcome for love.

Whoa is Me!! Whoa is me!!

I guess it always help to vent.... But since I am on both sides on the fence on this issue... Just a reminder that there is ONLY 3 or 4 Refs who are reading this.. And they're 50 or 100 times more Refs who could give a poop about what parents think than they're parents venting in here... Not saying parents don't have some very good concerns, but just reminding you of what is actually going on in here.... And to Hooligan's point (ironic handle BTW). This NTX Select soccer stuff is not the only way to get it done. D1 U16 has a starter right now who had never played Club before... So where there is a will there is a way to get your little super start to the finish line..

Or just gripe about about it in here... At least some Refs are listening..

Silly me I thought it was about the journey.

Where is this 'Finish Line'? How will we know if we got there?

Hooligan wrote:Big, athletic, violent players succeed in NTX soccer.  Smaller, skilled players are easily knocked off the ball by the bigger players, sometimes cleanly, most times not.  Refs don't call it, and parents get thrown out for pointing out the obvious.  
Over the years between U-11 and U-13, the smaller players leave the game for "other interests", leaving the big, athletic violent players.  When a big player finally acquires mediocre skills, they are regarded as a great player, when if the smaller player were allowed to develop, they could be a potential "genius" player (like a Marta or Messi).  But alas, they are literally shoved out of relevance early in their soccer careers.  Some may say "they didn't love the game enough" - but who would love to play a game where your skills and desire are irrelavant due only to your lack of physical girth at U-11?  Loving the game almost becomes an abusive relationship for the smaller player in NTX...eventually, the injuries and drama becomes too much to overcome for love.

I'm guessing that Jordan Harr is glad that she didn't get the memo from Hooligan on this...

I'm on my mobile, so grammar might be an issue, but here is my take that might be a little bit different than what has been discussed ad nauseum in the general discussion thread. Be forewarned, it may get rambling!

I agree with what sounder says and am on all three sides of the fence (is that even possible?) Lol!

As far as cards go, all of you have valid points, but I can tell you this: almost every set of games I ref, I have at least one or two "sit out verifications" to sign. That means that straight reds ARE being given.

Next, we refs do have to write down, while on the pitch, the (number, code, time, etc.) of the player carded. Keep in mind that this takes time and games run back to back, so added time is not really an option for us, even for injuries. When a team is behind, they get more antsy and upset that it's taking so long to restart. I'm sure, as parents) y'all have experienced this. Good refs will play advantage as much as they can and address the foul, if deemed worthy of a card, at a stoppage. Tensions escalate when cards are handed out constantly because the "flow" of the game is consistently interrupted. Giving out cards in this manner can actually exacerbate a control issue.

Also, think of the parents who's parenting style may be that of, "If someone hurts you, hurt them back even harder, so they will get the message to not mess with you again!" Tack that on to the idea of nature versus nurture. Take a competitive, aggressive kid, put her in an environment that suits her nature, then create the environment around her that brings her nature out ten fold.

Just something I was pondering while waiting on my girl to finish practice.

Allowing the level of subjectivity in calls creates the whole issue. A random issuing of cards because Refs are pressured this week to call a tight game only to be followed by lax enforcement the following week accomplishes nothing. Players need to understand cause and effect. If I do this I will get a yellow/red card. If sometimes you do and other times you don't, all you have done it add tinder to the fire. Right now, each player has to adapt their game to what the Center Ref is calling that week. One week you play soccer. The next we get to enjoy rollerball. Players and coaches will use whatever techniques give them the advantage. Consistent rules application allows everyone to play the same game. Consistent violators won't be able to cheap shot because they will be sitting the bench. Coaches will factor that into what they teach and allow from their teams.

The bottom line remains the same though. We get the level of control that LH demands. If they decide to tighten up the officiating, we will see a cleaner game. Otherwise, we will continue to see what we have.
Overall, I haven't seen the same level of cheap shots that I saw last year. That is probably more of an issue of which teams are playing where than it is an overt decision to change enforcement.

Since I started this thread, I should weigh in again.

The last few responses get to the crux of the matter pertaining to referees. While we cannot turn referees into robots, LHGCL should have a consistent standard of what constitutes "booking level" fouls. There's such a thing as game flow.

Regardless of how long a booking takes, it shouldn't be a factor. If a team is behind, they have every reason to focus on a nice buildup, followed by scoring chances. A team ahead in the score doesn't want to lose a player to a red card.

Bottom line, the coach bears responsibility, too. He/she sets the tone for the team. Overseeing a dirty team (beyond physical), reflects lack of confidence in one's team to be competitive. Getting away with flagrant fouls can intimidate and, thus level the playing field.

So you want LHGCL to do what MLS, La Liga, EPL and others have not done.. The rest of the world better accepts that Refs are part of the game. Some folks in here have said that the ECNL Refs are better.. ?? Well guess what, there is no special pool of "better" Refs. The Refs you like in ECNL are the same Refs you do not like in Classic League High School, PPL and even local College games..

Violence is a strong term that I would not use in 13-14 year old girl soccer. Rough or Physical play sounds more appropriate. Every Ref calls their game where they try to maintain control when things get a bit "chippy." Refs are supposed to guide the game, not be the determining factor in changing the game.

thebox wrote:Violence is a strong term that I would not use in 13-14 year old girl soccer.  Rough or Physical play sounds more appropriate.  Every Ref calls their game where they try to maintain control when things get a bit "chippy."  Refs are supposed to guide the game, not be the determining factor in changing the game.

I agree with this. With everything in the news regarding domestic violence in pro sports, it feels out of place the way the word is being so loosely thrown around in this thread. Your kid getting knocked off the ball and the ref didn't call what u thought was a foul does not equate to violence. Neither does every injury resulting from contact between two players.

I doubt parents really want to see reds tossed out every week...the chorus of complaints about overzealous refs would soon follow. All we need to know is whether the game is becoming more physical and causing more injuries. In the games I've seen this fall, the officiating is slightly better and the level of physicality is slightly less than years past.

Some of the worst muggings my dd ever endured was in ECNL games in South Texas and at Nationals.  This perception that it's all LHGCL's fault is nuts.  At every level, there are good refs and bad refs.  My dd plays college soccer, and it's no different now.  Some refs will let anything go, others will call a foul almost anytime there is contact between two players.  

I don't think it's really changed much over the years.  There were threads just like this on the old Turfmonster site, and there will likely be threads like this in five years on some site if this one implodes over CPP.

There are refs that need to be replaced.  The challenge is that there is no pool of great refs waiting to be called by LHGCL to take their place.

Name 1 '01 ECNL Team that cannot turn on physical play when they decide to. They all have those players and they all have the ability to. Its not what is taught from a skills level where it frequently appears mid way through the second half when one team is down and needs to make something turn around. Maybe skills and movement off the ball weren't cutting it and now its time to force things through physical play. The game changes and the refs have to keep that under control but they are tired too and it sometimes turns into a cluster of bad decisions from players and refs. If two girls run directly at each other to hit straight up at the same level, the larger girl usually has the advantage. If a kick is coming in from above, the larger or taller girl probably has the advantage when they both go up and clank heads getting to it. Its just physics and smaller players have to learn when to put themselves in a position of risk and when not to. Its about soccer maturity and smarts, where the smaller players can beat the larger players with other speed and quickness skillets. Thats whats great about this game. Its not a knife fight but it does get physical sometimes and all the better teams/players know when that happens and how to adjust or be beaten by it. The thing parents don't like about physical play is its not truly the way the game was drawn up to be played. High elbows, pushing off the ball, giving a foul intentionally at mid field, high kicks....these are not taught and not considered skills but they are part of the game. Go play volleyball if you can't deal with the risks. Girls soccer is a CONTACT SPORT

thebox wrote:Violence is a strong term that I would not use in 13-14 year old girl soccer.  Rough or Physical play sounds more appropriate.  Every Ref calls their game where they try to maintain control when things get a bit "chippy."  Refs are supposed to guide the game, not be the determining factor in changing the game.

Where would a punch to the head of a player on the ground fall in your terminology?