Just a request

Hi Banana, you are right that we all have to help the system change. It is good to be able to voice opinions, but we need to do more than that. Petitions would be a good place to start. Then someone has to take that forward and form a group of parents, coaches, league officials, and refs to look at the rules of play and determine better rules (that are explained in plain terms and are enforced). The difficulty is that bad play is talked about, but it still goes on. Apathy is the biggest issue of all here.

You can't be afraid to tackle it. You can't be afraid to rock a boat. However, you don't want to go in anger because emotions won't make positive change happen. You go in with logic and some proposed solutions. As a boss once wisely told me, if you bring me a problem, you had better bring me ways to solve it as well.

Change definitely needs to happen but I want to take a bit of a different approach. For me, the referees need to understand the rules better and use what is written when calling a game. There is always going to be subjectivity and very rarely are any two situations identical. Players, coaches and parents must realize that no game has ever been called perfectly. Even if a referee doesn't get all the calls correct as long as they are in control most of us can live with that.

Here is where I may differ a bit from the rest. I also think that there should be time and effort put into educating the parents. There are far too many that have no clue and 9 times out of 10 it is those parents constant yelling and screaming that cause games to get out of control.

This is a game designed to bring forth a winner of each match so tactics are always going to play a part. Contrary to popular belief a 5 year old and a 50 year old go out and play every game to try and score more than the other team.

There were some examples given above about the "little skillful player" and the "big athletic player"...neither will succeed long term in this game unless they learn how to play against opponents of all shapes, sizes, speeds and tactics. It is good for the kids to have to adapt to circumstances and I see no problem with using different tactics...as long as they are within the rules of the game and the referee has control of the game at all times.

Refs understand the rules. How they are enforced comes down from the leagues & assignors and the culture of that area. The group most clueless about the rules? Parents. And it's not close. Let's go further and say first time parents with kids u12 and under.

Vast majority of parents have ZERO ability to be objective. They see everything through the prism of their own kid and her team. By the time this group's daughters get about 15, they get a little better at foul recognition...either that - or they get grizzled and stop caring as much over every little contact.

Good example? The folks on this thread acting as if a jersey tug is some ungodly act requiring immediate physical retaliation. If my daughter retaliated physically every time her jersey was tugged she'd have been kicked out of 1/3 of her youth games since u11. Watch adult games and you'll see any defender worth his/her salt knows how to
pull off a strategic jersey tug. If they're obvious or it actually hinders movement, it MIGHT be called. Oftentimes, it's NOT called because the attackers have long since learned how to play through a jersey tug and keep on truckin. Usually a jersey tug happens because a player is already beaten. Any referee worth his/her salt is going to play advantage in those situations. Teach your attackers to knock down that arm down and keep it moving...not retaliate or stop and start yelling...lol.

NTX soccer isn't much different from other competitive regions in terms of physicality. IMO the real issue is the extremely violent incidents where a player is taken out without any attempt to play the ball. Serious injuries seem to be correlated with this crap, and it has no place in the game. Too many of those incidents occur in NTX without RED. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water and turn NTX into la liga...just clean up the nonsense.

I had thought the tide was turning based on a local tournament I saw last fall where players where actually sent off for violent conduct, and there didn't seem to be any reluctance to pull out the cards (saw it in multiple age groups).

For those who wanted to take some action, I believe a group of parents created a petition regarding this last fall. Maybe if you express an interest in helping, one of them will PM you with current status and details.

Funny how some act as if a jersey tug is no big deal, just learn to push it off, it happens, its normal or whatever. Accept bad play and let's just learn to play through it. I've seen jersey tugs turn into tackles leading to injuries. How about confronting it and that let's those players and that coach know there is no bullying going to happen or there will be consequences. A flagrant jersey tug is NOT trivial. It is a blatant attempt to stop a player form advancing the ball that IS ILLEGAL. Therefore it should be carded. When not, then the ref has NOT done their job and is allowing that to occur. A player must take those incidents that have been given a foul and shove, talk or whatever is needed to intimidate that offending player. If the refs are not going to help, then the player needs to take control.

[[color=#ff0000]quote="4-3-3"]Refs understand the rules[/color]. How they are enforced comes down from the leagues & assignors and the culture of that area. The group most clueless about the rules? Parents. And it's not close. Let's go further and say first time parents with kids u12 and under.

Vast majority of parents have ZERO ability to be objective. They see everything through the prism of their own kid and her team. By the time this group's daughters get about 15, they get a little better at foul recognition...either that - or they get grizzled and stop caring as much over every little contact.

Good example? The folks on this thread acting as if a jersey tug is some ungodly act requiring immediate physical retaliation. If my daughter retaliated physically every time her jersey was tugged she'd have been kicked out of 1/3 of her youth games since u11. Watch adult games and you'll see any defender worth his/her salt knows how to
pull off a strategic jersey tug. If they're obvious or it actually hinders movement, it MIGHT be called. Oftentimes, it's NOT called because the attackers have long since learned how to play through a jersey tug and keep on truckin. Usually a jersey tug happens because a player is already beaten. Any referee worth his/her salt is going to play advantage in those situations. Teach your attackers to knock down that arm down and keep it moving...not retaliate or stop and start yelling...lol.

NTX soccer isn't much different from other competitive regions in terms of physicality. IMO the real issue is the extremely violent incidents where a player is taken out without any attempt to play the ball. Serious injuries seem to be correlated with this crap, and it has no place in the game. Too many of those incidents occur in NTX without RED. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water and turn NTX into la liga...just clean up the nonsense.

I had thought the tide was turning based on a local tournament I saw last fall where players where actually sent off for violent conduct, and there didn't seem to be any reluctance to pull out the cards (saw it in multiple age groups).

For those who wanted to take some action, I believe a group of parents created a petition regarding this last fall. Maybe if you express an interest in helping, one of them will PM you with current status and details.[/quote]

Your post is spot on, but I take a slight bit of exception to what I have highlighted in red (no coincident).  If the referees truly knew the rules, a jersey pull would be a yellow, whether advantage is played or not...next dead ball the player that pulled the jersey gets booked.  Violent incidents are red, it is the rule, no black and white here, whether injury occurs or not.  

My point is the sooner our youth games are called like a professional game is called - yellow for multiple infractions, yellow for jersey pulls, red for violent tackles, etc. - the sooner our youth understand that there are consequences for their actions and the better the product on the field becomes.

I feel too many times, the referees think "there is no way a 10 year old meant to hurt the opposing player so I can't discipline them."  The intent is only part of the equation, violent tackles are violent tackles regardless of intent or the ability for a player to control their body.  Proper discipline should be used as a tool to teach kids and not strictly as a tool to single out dirty players.

Agree with most of that yellowcard...but a jersey tug is not an automatic yellow. In pro game, usually when u see a player carded for jersey tug it's because they committed a "tactical foul" and stopped a player's attack...the yellow isnt about the jersey...its about the opportunity that was taken away. Nothing in the LOTG says jersey tug is automatic yellow. Most corners have 2 or 3 different jersey tugs going on at the same time at the highest levels.

In an inadvertent slight jersey grab that is of little consequence that does not impede the player advancing is NOT what we are talking about. It's the jersey grab that results in loss of ball, etc. and is called a foul with ball reset. That is a yellow! The assertion that parents, who many have played the game, have ZERO knowledge of the game or rules is funny to me.

If in those corners once the ball is crossed and the player being tugged on is impeded to play on the ball, then, YES, it is an infraction that should result in a card.

Some seem to think that if the pros do it, it must be ok. Has anybody ever thought that the state of pro soccer has degraded in some aspects......like maybe the NBA?

You'll get no argument from me...however, jersey pulling has morphed into the "unsporting behavior" category and 99 times out of 100 you will see a player cautioned for doing so. I agree with you that also 99 times out of 100 it is because a defender has been beaten.

I don't associate jersey pulling with the "clutch and grab" crap that has become the norm on corners and set pieces. It's the one area of the game that desperately needs to be cleaned up.

You guys are very emotional on this. And I get it. Nothing wrong with that. It's part of the progression of a soccer parent.

I didn't say parents have zero knowledge of the rules. Someone mentioned refs don't understand the rules. I said of all the parties involved, parents are the ones most clueless about the rules. I also suggested MOST have ZERO ability to be objective.

Fierce - you're saying the "inadvertent slight" jersey tugs aren't an issue.  And I agree - they aren't. But that's getting into judgment. That is subjective! Refs aren't ALWAYS objective, but a ref is more likely to be CAPABLE of objectivity than most parents...especially parents of young players.

Any slight jersey pull against your kid has you screaming for yellow, but a jersey tug your kid's team commits becomes inadvertent. I'm telling you guys right now...99% of jersey pulls won't result in a yellow card when your daughter gets older, and most the time the attacking player doesn't want it called unless it stops them doing what they're trying to do.

A forward pulling a defender's jersey while pressing near the opponent's goal may be get called for a foul, but almost never gets a yellow in that area. A defender pulling a forwards jersey and taking away an attacking opportunity is almost always getting a yellow. Two players battling in the center prepping for a header, jostling and jersey tugging...may not get any foul called at all. Nothing wrong with ANY of that.

Most parents have nothing in our toolkit helping us with foul recognition while watching our little mia's play. Even if we know the rules, we don't have enough objectivity to recognize when they're being applied fairly.

I'd rather not see constant stoppages and superfluous carding in an attempt to make ntx soccer less of a contact sport. I just want to see repercussions follow for blatant violent conduct which leads to serious injuries.

My mistake about your comments on parents having ZERO knowledge of the rules. Not what you said. But what you did say is funny to me as well. That parents have ZERO objectivity. I believe they do, just may not want to admit it during the heat of the game. Most I know, upon reflection, are quite objective post-game. I happen to believe the refs know the rules, but don't quite understand the game as it could be played and what they do to shape it. There is a big distinction here that could take another whole new thread to develop.

I think what you fail to see is that once the kiddos realize that the refs will call these flagrant fouls game after game after game, it will sink in that they can't get away with it and their behavior and the coaches behavior will change. See the refs know the rules but don't know what they have done and are doing to the game through the years. The refs get the heat because they have created the game we see today and they deserve it. Where else can it change if the refs don't do it?

FierceLightning wrote:My mistake about your comments on parents having ZERO knowledge of the rules. Not what you said. But what you did say is funny to me as well. That parents have ZERO objectivity. I believe they do, just may not want to admit it during the heat of the game. Most I know, upon reflection, are quite objective post-game. I happen to believe the refs know the rules, but don't quite understand the game as it could be played and what they do to shape it. There is a big distinction here that could take another whole new thread to develop.

I think what you fail to see is that once the kiddos realize that the refs will call these flagrant fouls game after game after game, it will sink in that they can't get away with it and their behavior and the coaches behavior will change. See the refs know the rules but don't know what they have done and are doing to the game through the years. The refs get the heat because they have created the game we see today and they deserve it. Where else can it change if the refs don't do it?

We're on the same side and want the same thing...namely for our kids to be able to play the game safely. I don't think it starts with refs though. First there has to be an acknowledgement from the people that hire and assess refs that change is even needed.

Maybe what we all need is another "parent" meeting with the league. That was special ;-)

RightWingDad wrote:Maybe what we all need is another "parent" meeting with the league. That was special ;-)

It could be worse...league could be owned entirely by 1 big club whose main interest is max profit. Ref quality would likely be much worse than anything we have now, and you'd be lucky if they ever put more than 1 ref per game...Ref fees would be included in your dues though, and you wouldn't have to worry about ever being relegated.

4-3-3 wrote:
I'd rather not see constant stoppages and superfluous carding in an attempt to make ntx soccer less of a contact sport. I just want to see repercussions follow for blatant violent conduct which leads to serious injuries.

I would rather see more stoppages and more carding.  In my opinion, "waiting until there is blatant violent conduct which leads to serious injuries" is waiting too long/acting too late.

But yes, from my experience, calling the really violent stuff would be a good start for many refs.

4-3-3,

It would be interesting to see where the money flow goes back and forth between the big clubs and the leagues.

On a side note, I saw the LH commissioner and Roger Goodell having lunch at Eatzi's last week. Overheard them chatting on ways to make their leagues better. Change is on it's way boys!

RightWingDad wrote:4-3-3,

It would be interesting to see where the money flow goes back and forth between the big clubs and the leagues.

On a side note, I saw the LH commissioner and Roger Goodell having lunch at Eatzi's last week. Overheard them chatting on ways to make their leagues better. Change is on it's way boys!

How do you think the money flows back and forth between the clubs and the leagues?  I get how the teams pay their league fees to the league, are you suggesting that the clubs pay money outside of that to the leagues?

I'd also be curious to see how you think the league might flow money back to the clubs.

Ball, I don't really know and have no hard evidence. But with all the $$ being collected there is sure to be some "you scratch my back, I'll scratch your's." Don't forget the tournament's the leagues put on in addition to league fees. I know QT tournament is very expensive, compared to most others.

Possibly I'm cynical and there is nothing nefarious afoot. But I have to think the clubs have some kind of STRONG influence over the leagues and what they do...AND to the topic of this conversation how the games are called and the use of CPP. Both benefit at sometimes parents/families expense.

4-3-3 wrote:

We're on the same side and want the same thing...namely for our kids to be able to play the game safely. I don't think it starts with refs though. First there has to be an acknowledgement from the people that hire and assess refs that change is even needed.

Not sure I completely agree with you on this. You give the refs too much of a pass IMO. Because the rules are already there in place. Not ambiguous and not up for interpretation. If the refs aren't following them, then they are either not knowledgeable or don't care. But, there could be a third reason though to your point and that is the league is instructing them to officiate in a way that is blind to some rules. If that is the case, then the league is corrupt.

I'll give an example. A few years back when my DD was in her rec days, I coached her team. We played in PSA. We played in the top rec division for her age group. As the season progressed, it became apparent that there were 2 top teams. Ours and another. The day we played was for the division lead and top seeding. The team we played was good and skilled. As we warmed up, the coach on the opposing team was speaking Spanish to a few players, mainly mids and defenders. He was instructing them on how to play a few of our girls. What he didn't know at the time was this Caucasian speaks fluent Spanish. So I understood everything he was telling. Basically, he was telling them to NOT allow any breakaways no matter what you got to do. The game began, movement was good, my daughter takes a pass from the mid on the outside and has 1v1 on one of the players, she beats her and while the coach is screaming in Spanish to stop my daughter the defender reaches out and grabs her pony tail and pulls her off her feet. The ball goes out and the refs call it a turnover. The coach clapping and praising the player for that. Next we get a breakaway down the middle with our fastest player and she gets tackled and dragged down from behind. Result a turnover. Other small incidents occurred through out the game. Finally, near the end of the game tied at 2, we get a good strike going and this time the defender slides in cleats up and takes out our forward in the chin. I had enough. I stopped the game went to the refs and told them that what I witnessed today was a shame and I will not play on if they don't do something about the team and its coach. At that point, the ref made the coach get all his girls in a huddle and tell them to quit doing it. He spoke in Spanish to them and basically told them to take it easy but don't let our girls score. They scored on us and beat us 3-2. At the end of the game, I walk to the ref and got their names and went to the coach and told him in perfect Spanish that I would see him at the inquiry. He looked shocked. At the inquiry, I submitted all that happened and from the organization down to the coach all I got were apologies and that it was the heat of the game and that the refs didn't want to insert themselves into a 8 year old girls game. The refs were young and they were just following the league's instructions. I won't go as far as saying the leadership is corrupt, but they are definitely not the creme of the crop and that lack of leadership shows in their refs. The rules/refs administrator should have been fired for his attitude.

OK, here is the deal. We have rules, that if correctly interpreted, should result in fewer issues. However, that being said, the rules are open to individual interpretation. I have seen wacky calls based on interpretation. I have seen coaches come unglued because they interpreted an event differently than a ref. And, of course, I have seen parents become totally wild over foul or no foul interpretations.

I have seen defenders grab a jersey and hold it so tight that it was stretched to its limits.
My DD suffered a major ankle injury when she was knocked down and the defender came back and intentionally stepped hard on her ankle. The jersey puller got a yellow card. The defender who stepped on my DD's ankle got a verbal warning. The defender was given a high five by her coach when she came off the field. I have listened to parents and coaches talk in a foreign language to their players and tell them to take out a specific player. (Yes, I do understand Spanish and French - so keep that in mind ya'll.)

I agree that we have rules that need to be enforced, but I also feel that there are rules that need to be re-written. It was great to see the refs being given more latitude in protecting themselves and the game from disruptive behavior. Unfortunately, that seemed to only last a season before it slowly died away.

I have seen multiple concussions this year along with broken bones and other serious injuries and I dislike what I see happening. Yes, even in normal play, girls (and boys) can sustain injuries. But there are too many teams and players who take physical tactics to the extreme. I have always felt that when a coach or player does that it means they don't have the ability to win any other way. They aren't skilled enough to play the game. Either that or they have no faith in themselves to win. Either way, how do you manage fear of losing and a lack of faith in your team? That is when it becomes win at all costs.

So do I think it is all the refs' fault?  No, it falls equally on coaches, parents and refs. Coaches and parents should be helping their players to play for the love of the sport and their abilities. Refs should be sure they interpret the rules fairly and in a way that does not unfairly influence the conclusion of the game. This is not wrestling or Football, this is a game that requires skill, game knowledge and heart. The beauty of watching a run down the field, the heart stopping save at the goal line, the wonderful magic of totally in sync ball management. These are the things we should instill in our players, our teams and our parents.

There is nothing "soccer" about intentionally doing whatever you can get away with. There is nothing beautiful about sending a player off with severe injuries to stop them.

Win or lose, we should above all praise our team, our players and our coach for fighting hard, striving to do our best, and honoring the game.

Turning the soap box back over to the next person.  

Well said Ina, very well said.

Problem is, when we live in a "me first" world you do what ever it takes to get ahead. It's all about me, man.

Not everybody has Tim Tebow values, hard work, team first, respect for the game and others. Wish they did.

Another very disappointing experience with NTX officiating today, this time in the newly formed UAL.  And, yes, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse.  But this, I think, should be shared.

Over the course of the game today -- our girls were playing a spirited group of boys -- the official called eleven fouls against our girls and yet made no calls against the boys.  Your eyebrows just shot up, didn't they?  The eleven calls against is far less concerning, although a bit excessive, in my opinion, than the zero calls for.  Up 3-0 late in the second half, our keeper took a cleat to the chest that jarred the ball from her hands; this resulted in the boys' one goal.  No call, but our coach did have to spend some time on the field making sure she was okay.  It gets worse.  A few minutes later, one of our attacking players went down with a broken ankle after being manhandled from behind.  No call.  But it would have been too late then, anyway, wouldn't it?

Could this injury have been prevented?  Who knows, but either by choosing not to take control of a physical game or, in this case, by choosing not to call it both ways, and there were plenty of opportunities to do so, the official is communicating that a clearly dangerous style of play is okay.

Well, that is really too bad. Sorry to hear that there seemed to be an obvious prejudice for the boys and against the girls.

RightWingDad wrote:Well said Ina, very well said.

Problem is, when we live in a "me first" world you do what ever it takes to get ahead. It's all about me, man.

Not everybody has Tim Tebow values, hard work, team first, respect for the game and others. Wish they did.

Who is Tim Tebow?

Or at least that play like that is expected from boys but the girls are not "supposed" to be at all physical back.

Funny, since we've all watched games with two girls teams that got physically out of hand too.

Wonder if Nicole has been alerted to this game to take a closer look...

go99 wrote:

RightWingDad wrote:Well said Ina, very well said.

Problem is, when we live in a "me first" world you do what ever it takes to get ahead. It's all about me, man.

Not everybody has Tim Tebow values, hard work, team first, respect for the game and others. Wish they did.

Who is Tim Tebow?

Yeah, you're right. No one's ever heard of him, especially in Pittsburgh.

Deuce wrote:Wonder if Nicole has been alerted to this game to take a closer look...

She's on it.