Re: How do we educate linesman in Arlington what offside is

by soccerman771 17/09/12, 07:40 pm

GGoat wrote:Again everbody back to the question how do we educate refs and Ars according to 2cents they get 4 hours of training on a friday 8 hrs class room on a saturday and 4 hours of game time on sunday which they have to pay for and they have to buy their own uniforms all to make 16 bucks a game.Then sent out to ref games. How many games can they ref on saturday and sunday. Is their no training during the year. No wonder Arlington and others cant say anything to there refs an Ars about bad calls. They are lucky to have the ones they have and cant afford to loose any of them. What happens to all the money we give them. Cant they afford a monthy training and pay them to attend and offer bonuses to refs an ars that get high scores on evaluations by coaches.

That is completely ludicrous.

Coaches should have ZERO say on how good a referee performs. Zero. It has no place in the game.

by Coach&Ref 17/09/12, 08:04 pm

4-4-2-Diamond wrote:
Just an Observer wrote:It was a break away the keeper came out and stopped the shot just inside the 18 the other offensive player kept going to the goal.
There was no defenders behind the keeper.

Question: Did the keeper stop the ball and it bounced back to the offensive player? If so, the goal is good as a ball played by the other team to a player cannot be offside.

I've seen this stated multiple times in this thread and surprised no one has corrected it yet. If the ball rebounds off a keeper to a player previously in an offside position, offside must be called under LOTG because said player was "gaining an advantage" by being closer to goal than 2nd to last defender. Nothing is reset from a deflection or rebound off a keeper, goalpost, or anything else. Remember a "punch" is considered "control" by a keeper, so if he/she punched it straight up to a player that is standing in an offside possession, it's a goal. The only way the scenario the OP described could have been a legit goal would be if the defending team controlled and played the ball to the attacker. A keeper blocking a shot doesn't count. Whiffs and miskicks on clearances don't count either.

by Coach&Ref 17/09/12, 08:20 pm

my2cents wrote:
GGoat wrote:Ya ur so right 2 cents. I know we have filed things with ASA before but it never goes anywhere. I dont think they are paid enough. If no one is out watching them how will they ever get better and it doesnt do any good to yell at them as a matter a fact thats just stupid. I think the truth of the matter is many of the soccer Ass. dont care. They can pay a kid next to nothing and give them a weekend class on how to do it and if anyone complains its just to bad. At min they could have the coaches or managers grade the refs and ARs and over a few weeks they could see where the kids are falling behind and give a bonus to the kids that are doing a good job. This would teach them if they are making mistakes and motivate them to do a good job

That part is not at all true. First off all refs must go thru a certification course that is 16 hours long. Usually 4 classroom hours Friday, 8 classroom hours Saturday and a 4 hour field session on Sunday. They pay $50 for this weekend of fun. Then they must purchase uniforms and equipment. Second the local associations do care. Believe it or not people are not lining up for the chance to run up and down a field and be yelled at for 4 or 5 hours every Saturday. They use what they have and do access refs.

+1

GGoat,

Do you know how much a referee kit costs? Did you know that a ref is supposed to carry TWO of each item on him (watches, whistles, etc.)? I have had two watches break on me on two different occasions and, thank goodness, I had my backup watch on. The thing I am guilty of, is not using two whistles as my whistle is a pealess one and I have faith in it (I shouldn't and if I was being evaluated, it would be noted). I do have a couple backups in my bag.

Also, remember that every ref is required to have EVERY different color shirt. Yellow is not sufficient. The color for the ARs is usually determined by what the Center says. I have had MANY ARs have to borrow shirts from other refs in order for us to proceed.

There are MANY different costs that you do not realize besides simply the multiple uniform and kit costs (gas, etc.) BEFORE you can even BEGIN to recoup the costs, let alone make any money.

Compound all of this with the screaming and yelling directed at you for the amount of money refs are paid per game and let us refs know if it is something you'd be interested in.

by Busby Babes 17/09/12, 08:32 pm

GGoat wrote:The Linesman told us today that the keeper is the last defender and if the ball is in the air they are not offsides. The keeper came out and stopped the first shot the ball bouncd around and was played to a player that was behind the keeper and the entire team. She was all alone and put it in.

It's offside, not offsides.. Cool

by Coach&Ref 17/09/12, 08:36 pm

Busby Babes wrote:
GGoat wrote:The Linesman told us today that the keeper is the last defender and if the ball is in the air they are not offsides. The keeper came out and stopped the first shot the ball bouncd around and was played to a player that was behind the keeper and the entire team. She was all alone and put it in.

It's offside, not offsides..

Somehow, I never seem to catch this when in writing, yet when someone says it, it's like fingernails across a chalkboard in my ears.

by Busby Babes 17/09/12, 08:39 pm

Coach&Ref wrote:
Busby Babes wrote:
GGoat wrote:The Linesman told us today that the keeper is the last defender and if the ball is in the air they are not offsides. The keeper came out and stopped the first shot the ball bouncd around and was played to a player that was behind the keeper and the entire team. She was all alone and put it in.

It's offside, not offsides..

Somehow, I never seem to catch this when in writing, yet when someone says it, it's like fingernails across a chalkboard in my ears.

lol, I agree...

by Frogfan1 17/09/12, 09:01 pm

Coach&Ref wrote:
my2cents wrote:
GGoat wrote:Ya ur so right 2 cents. I know we have filed things with ASA before but it never goes anywhere. I dont think they are paid enough. If no one is out watching them how will they ever get better and it doesnt do any good to yell at them as a matter a fact thats just stupid. I think the truth of the matter is many of the soccer Ass. dont care. They can pay a kid next to nothing and give them a weekend class on how to do it and if anyone complains its just to bad. At min they could have the coaches or managers grade the refs and ARs and over a few weeks they could see where the kids are falling behind and give a bonus to the kids that are doing a good job. This would teach them if they are making mistakes and motivate them to do a good job

That part is not at all true. First off all refs must go thru a certification course that is 16 hours long. Usually 4 classroom hours Friday, 8 classroom hours Saturday and a 4 hour field session on Sunday. They pay $50 for this weekend of fun. Then they must purchase uniforms and equipment. Second the local associations do care. Believe it or not people are not lining up for the chance to run up and down a field and be yelled at for 4 or 5 hours every Saturday. They use what they have and do access refs.

+1

GGoat,

Do you know how much a referee kit costs? Did you know that a ref is supposed to carry TWO of each item on him (watches, whistles, etc.)? I have had two watches break on me on two different occasions and, thank goodness, I had my backup watch on. The thing I am guilty of, is not using two whistles as my whistle is a pealess one and I have faith in it (I shouldn't and if I was being evaluated, it would be noted). I do have a couple backups in my bag.

Also, remember that every ref is required to have EVERY different color shirt. Yellow is not sufficient. The color for the ARs is usually determined by what the Center says. I have had MANY ARs have to borrow shirts from other refs in order for us to proceed.

There are MANY different costs that you do not realize besides simply the multiple uniform and kit costs (gas, etc.) BEFORE you can even BEGIN to recoup the costs, let alone make any money.

Compound all of this with the screaming and yelling directed at you for the amount of money refs are paid per game and let us refs know if it is something you'd be interested in.

I have been a referee for 20ish years. I played in college, am I’m in decent shape and in my 40s. I have refed in HS and college and with that being said I only ref rec currently because there is MUCH LESS abuse from coaches and parents with the same pay as select. Sad but true.

by Coach&Ref 17/09/12, 09:11 pm

I have been a referee for 20ish years. I played in college, am I’m in decent shape and in my 40s. I have refed in HS and college and with that being said I only ref rec currently because there is MUCH LESS abuse from coaches and parents with the same pay as select. Sad but true.

You do it to stay in shape and still enjoy the game I'm betting.

The pay USED to be disparate. Now the rec associations have upped it, so you are probably taking a much less stressful course.

by Frogfan1 17/09/12, 09:19 pm

Coach&Ref wrote:
I have been a referee for 20ish years. I played in college, am I’m in decent shape and in my 40s. I have refed in HS and college and with that being said I only ref rec currently because there is MUCH LESS abuse from coaches and parents with the same pay as select. Sad but true.

You do it to stay in shape and still enjoy the game I'm betting.

The pay USED to be disparate. Now the rec associations have upped it, so you are probably taking a much less stressful course.

Amen coach!

by 4-4-2-Diamond 17/09/12, 10:17 pm

Coach&Ref wrote: Remember a "punch" is considered "control" by a keeper, so if he/she punched it straight up to a player that is standing in an offside possession, it's a goal.

Are you confusing the "Parry" phrase in Law 11 with punch? You're going to have to help me on this one. My understanding is Parry is when a keep plays the ball to himself instead of catching it, typically as a time wasting technique. I've seen the ATRs on it.

But I can't see how LOTG supports a keeper who executes a punch in the process of a save has established control, especially one that happened to fly towards his own goal for a waiting attacker in an offside position. It's hard to imagine a scenario where a PIOP scores off that errant punch and an experienced center allows the goal. 99% of the time I'm thinking that is a clear offside...unless I'm missing something. Can you point me to an ATR or IFAB with the language on punch = control? Always willing to learn.

by Hook It 17/09/12, 10:26 pm

Have you ever seen a linesmen ever call a delay of game on the keeper for holding the ball too long,,,, it's a PK....

by Coach&Ref 17/09/12, 10:39 pm

4-4-2-Diamond wrote:
Coach&Ref wrote: Remember a "punch" is considered "control" by a keeper, so if he/she punched it straight up to a player that is standing in an offside possession, it's a goal.

Are you confusing the "Parry" phrase in Law 11 with punch? You're going to have to help me on this one. My understanding is Parry is when a keep plays the ball to himself instead of catching it, typically as a time wasting technique. I've seen the ATRs on it.

But I can't see how LOTG supports a keeper who executes a punch in the process of a save has established control, especially one that happened to fly towards his own goal for a waiting attacker in an offside position. It's hard to imagine a scenario where a PIOP scores off that errant punch and an experienced center allows the goal. 99% of the time I'm thinking that is a clear offside...unless I'm missing something. Can you point me to an ATR or IFAB with the language on punch = control? Always willing to learn.

This conversation came up when in classroom settings, when trying to pin down the following things like:

preface: Attackers being in an offside position and whether it is considered offside or not.

Control:
1. Keeper even having 1 FINGER on the ball (not offside)
2. Defenders having the ball ricochet off of them (offside)
3. Keepers punching (not offside)

Aside from the rest of the deflection answers (post, etc.) #3 is the one I had the hardest time with. I have never seen #3 before, but it was still a question I asked over and over.

I can ask again on a few different web sites, but this answer came from a classroom setting a few times by me, because I just couldn't understand why it was considered control over just parrying a shot.

by Coach&Ref 17/09/12, 10:41 pm

Hook It wrote:Have you ever seen a linesmen ever call a delay of game on the keeper for holding the ball too long,,,, it's a PK....

Is this a joke?

by my2cents 17/09/12, 10:46 pm

Hook It wrote:Have you ever seen a linesmen ever call a delay of game on the keeper for holding the ball too long,,,, it's a PK....

I have seen a CR call it. It was a yellow card for intentional delay of the restart and an indirect freekick from the point of infraction.

by upper95 17/09/12, 11:49 pm

my2cents wrote:
Hook It wrote:Have you ever seen a linesmen ever call a delay of game on the keeper for holding the ball too long,,,, it's a PK....

I have seen a CR call it. It was a yellow card for intentional delay of the restart and an indirect freekick from the point of infraction.

The CR was wrong.

The only infraction in the Laws for a keeper "holding the ball too long" is the 6 seconds allowed for releasing the ball after controlling it with his hands during active play. Yes, an indirect kick would be awarded, but no card. (not a "restart" since ball was still in play... just in keeper's hands)

Delaying the restart on a goal kick may result in a yellow card, but the restart is still a goal kick.

by Coach&Ref 18/09/12, 12:16 am

upper95 wrote:
my2cents wrote:
Hook It wrote:Have you ever seen a linesmen ever call a delay of game on the keeper for holding the ball too long,,,, it's a PK....

I have seen a CR call it. It was a yellow card for intentional delay of the restart and an indirect freekick from the point of infraction.

The CR was wrong.

The only infraction in the Laws for a keeper "holding the ball too long" is the 6 seconds allowed for releasing the ball after controlling it with his hands during active play. Yes, an indirect kick would be awarded, but no card. (not a "restart" since ball was still in play... just in keeper's hands)

Delaying the restart on a goal kick may result in a yellow card, but the restart is still a goal kick.

I guess I don't understand what you mean. First, My2Cents is right. Secondly, how can you have an indirect free kick awarded if there is NO stoppage in play? Secondly, I sure can give a card if I wanted to simply for the persistent infringement on the LOTG.

Maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean.

by upper95 18/09/12, 12:56 am

I am assuming that "holding a ball too long" means that the keeper caught a ball (e.g., made a save), then did not release the ball (throw, drop kick, ...) in the required 6 seconds.

I am saying the CR's action (indirect free kick) described by my2cents is correct except for the card for "delaying the restart".

Hook's awarding of a PK is absolutely wrong.

by upper95 18/09/12, 01:12 am

Remember a "punch" is considered "control" by a keeper, so if he/she punched it straight up to a player that is standing in an offside possession, it's a goal.

A "punch" by a keeper is not "control". The player in the offside position is to be penalized for "gaining an advantage" by being in the offside position.

Control of the ball means possessing the ball by grasping or cradling in the hands, palmed, or pinned to the ground or to the body with hand or arm. Control allows the keeper to dictate the next action of the ball (e.g. flip to a teammate, drop kick, etc). A keeper punches a ball when time, space, and/or speed and trajectory of the ball make control improbable or inopportune. A parry is a quick release of a controlled ball.

by Coach&Ref 18/09/12, 03:46 am

upper95 wrote:
Remember a "punch" is considered "control" by a keeper, so if he/she punched it straight up to a player that is standing in an offside possession, it's a goal.

A "punch" by a keeper is not "control". The player in the offside position is to be penalized for "gaining an advantage" by being in the offside position.

Control of the ball means possessing the ball by grasping or cradling in the hands, palmed, or pinned to the ground or to the body with hand or arm. Control allows the keeper to dictate the next action of the ball (e.g. flip to a teammate, drop kick, etc). A keeper punches a ball when time, space, and/or speed and trajectory of the ball make control improbable or inopportune. A parry is a quick release of a controlled ball.

I'm just trying to find some other relevant situations that might help us clear this up.

This comes from askasoccerrefree.com. I haven't seen this rule tweaked, but I could be wrong. Please point me to an updated version of this if possible. It's long, but hits the nail on the head even in our scenario!

GOALKEEPER POSSESSION YET AGAIN
December 12, 2006

Question:
This issue came up during recertification when talking about gaining an advantage by being in an offside position.How is parry defined as it applies to goalkeeper possession?

From Decision 2 in Law 12, it seems apparent that a parried ball by a goalkeeper constitutes possession. So if the ball was parried by a goalkeeper and next touched by a player who had been in an offside position when the shot was taken, it would seem that the player would not be offside.

The discussion then turned to what was a parry. Some thought a parry required that the ball be knocked to the ground while others thought that any deliberate (and controlled) touch of the ball by the keeper was a parry (as in fisting or punching a ball away from the goal).

Laws, ATR and Q&A were checked but no reference seems to exist. Can you provide guidance?

USSF answer (December 12, 2006):
See the definition of “possession” in Law 12, IFAB Decision 2:

“The goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball by touching it with any part of his hand or arms. Possession of the ball includes the goalkeeper deliberately parrying the ball, but does not include the circumstances where, in the opinion of the referee, the ball rebounds accidentally from the goalkeeper, for example after he has made a save.”

To “parry” the ball is to handle the ball deliberately, pushing it to a place where the goalkeeper may play it to more advantage. By parrying the ball, the goalkeeper has done two things: (1) established possession and (2) given up possession. The ball is now free for all to play. The six-second rule has no further application in this situation.

So, in answer to your question, no, if the goalkeeper has clearly established possession by parrying the ball, rather than simply deflecting it in a “save,” then the opposing player cannot be declared offside.

by GGoat 18/09/12, 06:47 am

So what this post proves is that no one really knows what offsideS Very Happy

is sorry had to do that for all the teachers out there. Esp. when it comes to the keeper.

Coach and ref and 2 cents I totally agree with you both I think. For what you are being paid and have to buy uniforms, watches and all that is totally wrong. Asa lake highlands and others bring in a lot of money. I was looking at arlingtons rec site. Its 85/ player to play and there is about 14 players per team and there are 100s of teams and they pay ars 16 bucks a game. Then there are ref fees of 600 to 800 per season I think on top of that. Thats not right.

Because of this post I have learned a lot. I have decided to bring 3 extra gatorade drinks to every game and give it to the refs and Ars
Its not much but when your making 16 bucks a game and have to go buy a 2 or 3 dollar drink at the fields it could make a differance

To the guy that said that is completely ludicros for the coaches to evaluate the refs
I ask who should then. We have field marshals out there usually some mom or Dad that was picked by the team. I rarely see anyone from Asa out at the fields.
I ask how do the refs and ars ever get better if no one is there to encourage them when they do a good job or tell them what they did wrong if the missed a call.
I believe they should be rewarded for doing a good job but the way it is now no one will ever know about the ones that do a good job. Asa will only hear from mad coaches and parents when the feel a call was missed.

And maybee if there is someone watching then soccer can finally figuare out what OFFSIDES IS. Very Happy

Had to put that for all you grammer teachers again nails on the chalk board I love it

by FriscoSoccer2004 18/09/12, 07:03 am

I am not a ref, but my 12 year old just started as a ref in Frisco. And I have been very impressed by the structure they have in place to support their refs and help them improve and be successful. They have a mentor for every 4 fields, plus FSA Board Members, league directors and others all over the place.

All in all, one of the newest refs in Frisco is enjoying the experience and honestly I have been surprised at the job done so far (yes I have come out and watched every game just to make sure all goes well!)

I know (per the 12 yr old review of class) that in their 1.5 days of training for the grade 9 referee badge, they spent a good deal of time working on offside, and he heard that for the next grade they spend even more time reviewing and going over it.

by twotone 18/09/12, 11:43 am

GGoat wrote:So what this post proves is that no one really knows what offsideS is sorry had to do that for all the teachers out there. Esp. when it comes to the keeper.

Coach and ref and 2 cents I totally agree with you both I think. For what you are being paid and have to buy uniforms, watches and all that is totally wrong. Asa lake highlands and others bring in a lot of money. I was looking at arlingtons rec site. Its 85/ player to play and there is about 14 players per team and there are 100s of teams and they pay ars 16 bucks a game. Then there are ref fees of 600 to 800 per season I think on top of that. Thats not right.

Because of this post I have learned a lot. I have decided to bring 3 extra gatorade drinks to every game and give it to the refs and Ars
Its not much but when your making 16 bucks a game and have to go buy a 2 or 3 dollar drink at the fields it could make a differance

To the guy that said that is completely ludicros for the coaches to evaluate the refs
I ask who should then. We have field marshals out there usually some mom or Dad that was picked by the team. I rarely see anyone from Asa out at the fields.
I ask how do the refs and ars ever get better if no one is there to encourage them when they do a good job or tell them what they did wrong if the missed a call.
I believe they should be rewarded for doing a good job but the way it is now no one will ever know about the ones that do a good job. Asa will only hear from mad coaches and parents when the feel a call was missed.

And maybee if there is someone watching then soccer can finally figuare out what OFFSIDES IS. Had to put that for all you grammer teachers again nails on the chalk board I love it

cuz coaches often times know less about the rules than parents on the sidelines.....

by ballhead 18/09/12, 11:50 am

GGoat wrote:So what this post proves is that no one really knows what offsideS is sorry had to do that for all the teachers out there. Esp. when it comes to the keeper.

Coach and ref and 2 cents I totally agree with you both I think. For what you are being paid and have to buy uniforms, watches and all that is totally wrong. Asa lake highlands and others bring in a lot of money. I was looking at arlingtons rec site. Its 85/ player to play and there is about 14 players per team and there are 100s of teams and they pay ars 16 bucks a game. Then there are ref fees of 600 to 800 per season I think on top of that. Thats not right.

Because of this post I have learned a lot. I have decided to bring 3 extra gatorade drinks to every game and give it to the refs and Ars
Its not much but when your making 16 bucks a game and have to go buy a 2 or 3 dollar drink at the fields it could make a differance

To the guy that said that is completely ludicros for the coaches to evaluate the refs
I ask who should then. We have field marshals out there usually some mom or Dad that was picked by the team. I rarely see anyone from Asa out at the fields.
I ask how do the refs and ars ever get better if no one is there to encourage them when they do a good job or tell them what they did wrong if the missed a call.
I believe they should be rewarded for doing a good job but the way it is now no one will ever know about the ones that do a good job. Asa will only hear from mad coaches and parents when the feel a call was missed.

And maybee if there is someone watching then soccer can finally figuare out what OFFSIDES IS. Had to put that for all you grammer teachers again nails on the chalk board I love it

Perhaps a referee assessor?

by soccerman771 18/09/12, 07:17 pm

GGoat wrote:
To the guy that said that is completely ludicros for the coaches to evaluate the refs
I ask who should then.

Referee inspectors and assessors should do the evaluations. There is always room for improvement at all levels.

If anything, coaches should have to go through the grade 8 class and be evaluated on their understanding of the LOTG. I've been through a few coaching clinics myself and 99.5% is spent on teaching and getting results and tactics. .5% is spent on understand the LOTG.

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