Are we going off the deep end?

by JeffM 15/10/12, 09:41 am

It appears that we must be losing it. With the recent abandonment of games (apparently there have been 3 this season) U-17 coaches and managers have gotten an e-mail about the accumulation of cards, stating that there are already more red cards issued this year than all of last year.

Has poor behavior taken a leap lately, or is there less tolerance of bad behavior by the refs, league, etc. than before, or a combination of the two?

by Havingfunyet 15/10/12, 09:53 am

This is a good thing. We much improve the sportsmanship on the feild and off. Soccer is a great sport. 99% of the kids playing it do so for fun. The lessons we teach when we as adults do not act as we should sets the wrong example for out kids. These are life lessons we are teaching our children and will last far longer than the kids soccer carreer. Hats off the LHCL!

by Lefty 15/10/12, 11:50 am

JeffM wrote:It appears that we must be losing it. With the recent abandonment of games (apparently there have been 3 this season) U-17 coaches and managers have gotten an e-mail about the accumulation of cards, stating that there are already more red cards issued this year than all of last year.

Has poor behavior taken a leap lately, or is there less tolerance of bad behavior by the refs, league, etc. than before, or a combination of the two?

Hopefully less tolerance. We have not seen the same in the younger ages yet, but would hope they take the same approach. At u-17 they are a lost cause for changing aproach to the game. If they would start this at age 13-14 it may clean things up if the coaches started viewing some of the offenders as high risk for getting carded out of games.

by Guest 15/10/12, 01:01 pm

I see no evidence that play is getting rougher. Play is already rough and will continue to stay rough until the various leagues instruct the Referee's to control the violence. The teams that play rough do so because they have found that the benefit is greater than the penalty.

by dadof3 15/10/12, 01:02 pm

True Gumby, as we assess the bruises after each game...

by Guest 15/10/12, 01:09 pm

JeffM wrote:It appears that we must be losing it. With the recent abandonment of games (apparently there have been 3 this season) U-17 coaches and managers have gotten an e-mail about the accumulation of cards, stating that there are already more red cards issued this year than all of last year.

Has poor behavior taken a leap lately, or is there less tolerance of bad behavior by the refs, league, etc. than before, or a combination of the two?

Parent behavior has not changed. It has been abhorrent for at least the past 10 years and shows no signs of improvement. Anyone who has ever officiated a match, spent time as a field marshall, or even watched a game in which their own daughter is not playing can testify to this.

What has changed is officials and leagues are getting tired of it. Life is too short. If parents want to behave like idiots, then let them do it in the parking lot or to the tune of a 3-0 forfeit.

But the posts states "U-17 coaches and managers have gotten an e-mail about the accumulation of cards". Without more information, this does surprise me on two counts:

(1) At U-17, the parents are far more passive than they are at the younger ages. I assume the indictment by the email that went out was in reference to players behaving badly - not parents.

(2) If that is the case, then it's about time! Girls' soccer looks more like roller derby, especially as they get older. Perhaps the officials are FINALLY giving out cards where cards are due. At U14-U17, a girls can't beat a player with good skills in most instances. It's more about who can knock whom off the ball. Good skills are just asking for an injury.

by Guest 15/10/12, 01:10 pm

Gumby wrote:I see no evidence that play is getting rougher. Play is already rough and will continue to stay rough until the various leagues instruct the Referee's to control the violence. The teams that play rough do so because they have found that the benefit is greater than the penalty.

Like.

by Guest 15/10/12, 01:12 pm

Xara wrote:
JeffM wrote:It appears that we must be losing it. With the recent abandonment of games (apparently there have been 3 this season) U-17 coaches and managers have gotten an e-mail about the accumulation of cards, stating that there are already more red cards issued this year than all of last year.

Has poor behavior taken a leap lately, or is there less tolerance of bad behavior by the refs, league, etc. than before, or a combination of the two?

(Sorry Jeff M, I misread your post. My last paragraphs get to the point.) Parent behavior has not changed. It has been abhorrent for at least the past 10 years and shows no signs of improvement. Anyone who has ever officiated a match, spent time as a field marshall, or even watched a game in which their own daughter is not playing can testify to this.

What has changed is officials and leagues are getting tired of it. Life is too short. If parents want to behave like idiots, then let them do it in the parking lot or to the tune of a 3-0 forfeit.

But the posts states "U-17 coaches and managers have gotten an e-mail about the accumulation of cards". Without more information, this does surprise me on two counts:

(1) At U-17, the parents are far more passive than they are at the younger ages. I assume the indictment by the email that went out was in reference to players behaving badly - not parents.

(2) If that is the case, then it's about time! Girls' soccer looks more like roller derby, especially as they get older. Perhaps the officials are FINALLY giving out cards where cards are due. At U14-U17, a girls can't beat a player with good skills in most instances. It's more about who can knock whom off the ball. Good skills are just asking for an injury.

by larry7405 15/10/12, 01:35 pm

After ECNL scooped up the best of the best from Lake Highlands we are left with many teams with poor skills and coaching. The teams continue to use physical play for lack of skills. It's really hard to watch these games. I feel sorry for the college scouts.

by ballhead 15/10/12, 01:38 pm

Xara wrote:
Xara wrote:
JeffM wrote:It appears that we must be losing it. With the recent abandonment of games (apparently there have been 3 this season) U-17 coaches and managers have gotten an e-mail about the accumulation of cards, stating that there are already more red cards issued this year than all of last year.

Has poor behavior taken a leap lately, or is there less tolerance of bad behavior by the refs, league, etc. than before, or a combination of the two?

(Sorry Jeff M, I misread your post. My last paragraphs get to the point.) Parent behavior has not changed. It has been abhorrent for at least the past 10 years and shows no signs of improvement. Anyone who has ever officiated a match, spent time as a field marshall, or even watched a game in which their own daughter is not playing can testify to this.

What has changed is officials and leagues are getting tired of it. Life is too short. If parents want to behave like idiots, then let them do it in the parking lot or to the tune of a 3-0 forfeit.

But the posts states "U-17 coaches and managers have gotten an e-mail about the accumulation of cards". Without more information, this does surprise me on two counts:

(1) At U-17, the parents are far more passive than they are at the younger ages. I assume the indictment by the email that went out was in reference to players behaving badly - not parents.

(2) If that is the case, then it's about time! Girls' soccer looks more like roller derby, especially as they get older. Perhaps the officials are FINALLY giving out cards where cards are due. At U14-U17, a girls can't beat a player with good skills in most instances. It's more about who can knock whom off the ball. Good skills are just asking for an injury.

I would think that since the email referred to the accumulation of cards that the reference is to players, since parents wouldn't accumulate cards.

by Guest 15/10/12, 02:05 pm

Like I wrote, I misread the statement by the OP as being two separate issues: Refs having to abandon games due to parent/coach behavior and players getting too many cards. On to the subject at hand.

by JeffM 15/10/12, 02:07 pm

I muddled the original post a bit. The point was we've had 3 abandonded games, one we know was an '01, not sure about the other two. On the heels of the abandoned games the U-17 coaches and managers get an e-mail about excessive cards, including mention of parent's behavior influencing play.

My question is as a group - players(of all ages), parents, coaches, are we getting worse, or is the league tired of the same old same old, and cracking down, or a little of both.

by jen_nah 15/10/12, 02:54 pm

Our game this weekend at Moss the center ref stated after the same player was called on 2 dangerous fouls that he would not be giving out cards. One of the fouls was yellow card worthy in my opinion. That alone when he told the parent side of the no cards is just reinstating to the players & teams it's okay. It takes away from the beauty of this sport.

I agree with who ever said at u17 the kids are lost causes. The habits are already set and won't be broken or will be VERY hard to break at that point. If they start teaching these kids at a young age (u11 since that is select age) then we have chance of getting the sport back to the way it should be played.

Also the parents have to calm it down and just cheer their dd's on. Let the coach do the coaching and let the refs do their jobs. I may not agree with their calls but me screaming at him/her isn't going to change their mind. If anything it could work against my team too.

by my2cents 15/10/12, 05:24 pm

jen_nah wrote:Our game this weekend at Moss the center ref stated after the same player was called on 2 dangerous fouls that he would not be giving out cards. One of the fouls was yellow card worthy in my opinion. That alone when he told the parent side of the no cards is just reinstating to the players & teams it's okay. It takes away from the beauty of this sport.

I agree with who ever said at u17 the kids are lost causes. The habits are already set and won't be broken or will be VERY hard to break at that point. If they start teaching these kids at a young age (u11 since that is select age) then we have chance of getting the sport back to the way it should be played.

Also the parents have to calm it down and just cheer their dd's on. Let the coach do the coaching and let the refs do their jobs. I may not agree with their calls but me screaming at him/her isn't going to change their mind. If anything it could work against my team too.

Have to disagree there. At U17 they are very smart and know what they can get away with. Get a ref who calls it tight in the beginning , popping a couple of cautions on those who insist on hrd hitting or mouthing off and watch them all settle into a good game of soccer without the BS. Of course this includes the sidelines shutting their mouths too.

by Lefty 15/10/12, 08:19 pm

my2cents wrote:
jen_nah wrote:Our game this weekend at Moss the center ref stated after the same player was called on 2 dangerous fouls that he would not be giving out cards. One of the fouls was yellow card worthy in my opinion. That alone when he told the parent side of the no cards is just reinstating to the players & teams it's okay. It takes away from the beauty of this sport.

I agree with who ever said at u17 the kids are lost causes. The habits are already set and won't be broken or will be VERY hard to break at that point. If they start teaching these kids at a young age (u11 since that is select age) then we have chance of getting the sport back to the way it should be played.

Also the parents have to calm it down and just cheer their dd's on. Let the coach do the coaching and let the refs do their jobs. I may not agree with their calls but me screaming at him/her isn't going to change their mind. If anything it could work against my team too.

Have to disagree there. At U17 they are very smart and know what they can get away with. Get a ref who calls it tight in the beginning , popping a couple of cautions on those who insist on hrd hitting or mouthing off and watch them all settle into a good game of soccer without the BS. Of course this includes the sidelines shutting their mouths too.

That is true for many, however many others are no longer able to compete within the rules, so they do whatever they can, usually with encouragement from their parents, and will continue to do so until they are sent off.

by my2cents 15/10/12, 09:56 pm

Lefty wrote:
my2cents wrote:
jen_nah wrote:Our game this weekend at Moss the center ref stated after the same player was called on 2 dangerous fouls that he would not be giving out cards. One of the fouls was yellow card worthy in my opinion. That alone when he told the parent side of the no cards is just reinstating to the players & teams it's okay. It takes away from the beauty of this sport.

I agree with who ever said at u17 the kids are lost causes. The habits are already set and won't be broken or will be VERY hard to break at that point. If they start teaching these kids at a young age (u11 since that is select age) then we have chance of getting the sport back to the way it should be played.

Also the parents have to calm it down and just cheer their dd's on. Let the coach do the coaching and let the refs do their jobs. I may not agree with their calls but me screaming at him/her isn't going to change their mind. If anything it could work against my team too.

Have to disagree there. At U17 they are very smart and know what they can get away with. Get a ref who calls it tight in the beginning , popping a couple of cautions on those who insist on hrd hitting or mouthing off and watch them all settle into a good game of soccer without the BS. Of course this includes the sidelines shutting their mouths too.

That is true for many, however many others are no longer able to compete within the rules, so they do whatever they can, usually with encouragement from their parents, and will continue to do so until they are sent off.

Respectfully disagree again. I coach rec u19 boys and the skill level of most is lower PPL, APL level. I have had my own 7 kids play from rec C leagues to ODP regional. With poor officiating it will get nasty. Good game management allows them to play to the best of their abilities. It may or may not be pretty soccer but no matter the league or level, poor officiating produces an ugly,dangerous game.

by jen_nah 15/10/12, 10:46 pm

my2cents wrote:
Lefty wrote:
my2cents wrote:
jen_nah wrote:Our game this weekend at Moss the center ref stated after the same player was called on 2 dangerous fouls that he would not be giving out cards. One of the fouls was yellow card worthy in my opinion. That alone when he told the parent side of the no cards is just reinstating to the players & teams it's okay. It takes away from the beauty of this sport.

I agree with who ever said at u17 the kids are lost causes. The habits are already set and won't be broken or will be VERY hard to break at that point. If they start teaching these kids at a young age (u11 since that is select age) then we have chance of getting the sport back to the way it should be played.

Also the parents have to calm it down and just cheer their dd's on. Let the coach do the coaching and let the refs do their jobs. I may not agree with their calls but me screaming at him/her isn't going to change their mind. If anything it could work against my team too.

Have to disagree there. At U17 they are very smart and know what they can get away with. Get a ref who calls it tight in the beginning , popping a couple of cautions on those who insist on hrd hitting or mouthing off and watch them all settle into a good game of soccer without the BS. Of course this includes the sidelines shutting their mouths too.

That is true for many, however many others are no longer able to compete within the rules, so they do whatever they can, usually with encouragement from their parents, and will continue to do so until they are sent off.

Respectfully disagree again. I coach rec u19 boys and the skill level of most is lower PPL, APL level. I have had my own 7 kids play from rec C leagues to ODP regional. With poor officiating it will get nasty. Good game management allows them to play to the best of their abilities. It may or may not be pretty soccer but no matter the league or level, poor officiating produces an ugly,dangerous game.

The thing is if the kids had good strong officiating from the beginning there wouldn't be any of this needing to fix a problem down the road. Also if the crazy parents that encourage and even tell their child to play dirty would zip their lips and be their for their child I think this game would improve dramatically.

The first step is getting the officials to ref the game as it should be and take control back. This will then teach the players what isn't allowed. Which result in the coach having to teach their players in how to play far and with skills over brutal force. It will then move on to the parents in learning how to act at games. Then maybe we can finally see a great game of soccer where screaming matches or fist start flying on the parent side line.

by twotone 15/10/12, 11:37 pm

i'm curious about the path of this thread. everyone keeps saying that the officials must control the players/parents/coaches, etc. Now, i understand the referee is there to make sure the game is played within the rules, but whatever happened to the players issuing some SELF-CONTROL in the beginning. after all, the referee can only do something after the players break the laws and then deal out the proper consequences. the players are choosing to break the law first. is there nothing to be said about players deciding to play within the rules and get thru the game without killing each other.

disclaimers:
-yes i understand some fouls are accidental
-yes i understand a tightly called game at the start will end differently than a loosely called game
-yes i know coaches/parents encourage rough or dirty play
-yes i understand U17 players don't always have good decision-making skills, but they are old enough to make decisions for themselves.

it just seems to me that some of this goes back to the players themselves deciding that they want to respect each other and the game by making the decision to play soccer, not whatever it's devolved into now.

by Guest 16/10/12, 12:12 am

twotone wrote:i'm curious about the path of this thread. everyone keeps saying that the officials must control the players/parents/coaches, etc. Now, i understand the referee is there to make sure the game is played within the rules, but whatever happened to the players issuing some SELF-CONTROL in the beginning. after all, the referee can only do something after the players break the laws and then deal out the proper consequences. the players are choosing to break the law first. is there nothing to be said about players deciding to play within the rules and get thru the game without killing each other.

disclaimers:
-yes i understand some fouls are accidental
-yes i understand a tightly called game at the start will end differently than a loosely called game
-yes i know coaches/parents encourage rough or dirty play
-yes i understand U17 players don't always have good decision-making skills, but they are old enough to make decisions for themselves.

it just seems to me that some of this goes back to the players themselves deciding that they want to respect each other and the game by making the decision to play soccer, not whatever it's devolved into now.

If the point of playing the game is to win the game, and making a decision to violate the LOTG gives a player advantage to achieve their desired outcome (i.e. to win the game), and the player determines that there are no negative consequences for making that decision, then why would expect them to stop making that decision simply out of "respect for the game"?

If people never see a cop on a particular stretch of highway, a large majority will drive over the speed limit. However, if people know that cops regularly patrol a stretch of highway and frequently hand out speeding tickets that result in large fines and increases to their insurance payments, they will be much less likely to speed (and it won't be out of "respect" to their fellow drivers).

by RightWingDad 16/10/12, 01:22 am

As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

by bigtex75081 16/10/12, 04:38 am

twotone wrote:i'm curious about the path of this thread. everyone keeps saying that the officials must control the players/parents/coaches, etc.

I like this observation. The first reaction from us was to point at the referees and accuse them of not doing enough. The irony though is this string was started in order to discuss the INCREASED number of cards that referees have been compelled to hand out this season.

Come on people, do we have to blame the referees for EVERYTHING are kids are doing wrong???

"Ugh... My DD just got a speeding ticket going 55 mph through a school zone. That's just Suzy being Suzy. What kills me though... there was a referee in the car in the lane next to her and that ref never rolled his window down to tell her to go slow. Gawd these referees are terrible!"

by Guest 16/10/12, 04:46 am

RightWingDad wrote:As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

If all we needed was internal law to insure that individuals do the right thing, then why has the government of every free society in the history of man constructed laws (often based on God and the Bible) and determined what the suitable punishment should be for breaking those laws (again, often based on God and the Bible)?

...and to bring that analogy back to our soccer question at hand, why is it that the general observation is if a ref is quick to warn early in a game and back it up with pulling cards, that the subsequent play becomes less physical and the general behavior of the players and coaches improves? But if the ref doesn't establish clear consequences and relies solely on the players internal respect for the LOTG, the envelope is often pushed and violated?

Some live in the moral White and won't violate any rules because of their internal compass. Some live in the moral Black and will violate rules regardless of the consequences. Most live in some shade of moral Gray and will violate certain rules (intentionally or unintentionally) unless the fear of immediate negative consequence persuades them to do otherwise.

by dadof3 16/10/12, 07:22 am

The analogy of "would you speed if speeding ticket costs doubled vs. would you speed if there was a cop following you?" makes sense here.

Unfortunately, from what I have seen in LH, if you don't establish that you WILL be physical, then you get pushed around and are thus at the refs mercy...if he has a short whistle you are fine, if not, then you get pounded mercilessly.

I just teach mine to play physically without playing dirty-she doesn't push the boundaries, just plays consistently hard. I guess we try to be that internal compass, but we expect/hope for that from others. It is frustrating when that is not reciprocated, and I am in favor of tighter games.

by Guest 16/10/12, 07:26 am

RightWingDad wrote:As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

As a Christian, I would hope this would be true. As a student of history, it is not. Create an efficient police state and I promise you will see almost no crime and much more obedience to the law Sad

by my2cents 16/10/12, 08:27 am

RightWingDad wrote:As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

The external laws and enforcers may not instruct them into doing the right thing but they will punish them for not heeding that instruction to the detriment of those around them.

In the context of this thread the refs, field marshalls and admins need to be more agressive in tossing the bad apples off the sidelines. The values being displayed on the field start with the ones that are supposed to be setting the examples off the field.

Example; one month ago at boys CL at Richland from the next field over I heard very loud and clear "Hey ref , get your head out of your ass". That indiviual should have been banned for the season. No if, and , or buts. Your gone. Don't come back or you will be arrested. What happened? Nothing at all. Sad.

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Are we going off the deep end?

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