Re: Are we going off the deep end?

by my2cents 16/10/12, 08:27 am

RightWingDad wrote:As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

The external laws and enforcers may not instruct them into doing the right thing but they will punish them for not heeding that instruction to the detriment of those around them.

In the context of this thread the refs, field marshalls and admins need to be more agressive in tossing the bad apples off the sidelines. The values being displayed on the field start with the ones that are supposed to be setting the examples off the field.

Example; one month ago at boys CL at Richland from the next field over I heard very loud and clear "Hey ref , get your head out of your ass". That indiviual should have been banned for the season. No if, and , or buts. Your gone. Don't come back or you will be arrested. What happened? Nothing at all. Sad.

by bigtex75081 16/10/12, 08:40 am

my2cents wrote:
RightWingDad wrote:As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

The external laws and enforcers may not instruct them into doing the right thing but they will punish them for not heeding that instruction to the detriment of those around them.

In the context of this thread the refs, field marshalls and admins need to be more agressive in tossing the bad apples off the sidelines. The values being displayed on the field start with the ones that are supposed to be setting the examples off the field.

Example; one month ago at boys CL at Richland from the next field over I heard very loud and clear "Hey ref , get your head out of your ass". That indiviual should have been banned for the season. No if, and , or buts. Your gone. Don't come back or you will be arrested. What happened? Nothing at all. Sad.

Shouldn't that list include the word "parents"? Why does this role fall to the referees and administrators?

Gees... In the example you gave the parent needs to learn how to control himself. It shouldn't be a volunteer field marshall's job to approach a parent and create a confrontational situation. Don't we take our volunteers for granted enough as it is?

by Guest 16/10/12, 08:46 am

my2cents wrote:
RightWingDad wrote:As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

The external laws and enforcers may not instruct them into doing the right thing but they will punish them for not heeding that instruction to the detriment of those around them.

In the context of this thread the refs, field marshalls and admins need to be more agressive in tossing the bad apples off the sidelines. The values being displayed on the field start with the ones that are supposed to be setting the examples off the field.

Example; one month ago at boys CL at Richland from the next field over I heard very loud and clear "Hey ref , get your head out of your ass". That indiviual should have been banned for the season. No if, and , or buts. Your gone. Don't come back or you will be arrested. What happened? Nothing at all. Sad.

Yep make an example of these dopes and everyone else will fall into line. But that requires balls, something missing in our inclusive, feel good society we have created....

by my2cents 16/10/12, 08:52 am

bigtex75081 wrote:
my2cents wrote:
RightWingDad wrote:As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

The external laws and enforcers may not instruct them into doing the right thing but they will punish them for not heeding that instruction to the detriment of those around them.

In the context of this thread the refs, field marshalls and admins need to be more agressive in tossing the bad apples off the sidelines. The values being displayed on the field start with the ones that are supposed to be setting the examples off the field.

Example; one month ago at boys CL at Richland from the next field over I heard very loud and clear "Hey ref , get your head out of your ass". That indiviual should have been banned for the season. No if, and , or buts. Your gone. Don't come back or you will be arrested. What happened? Nothing at all. Sad.
Shouldn't that list include the word "parents"? Why does this role fall to the referees and administrators?

Gees... In the example you gave the parent needs to learn how to control himself. It shouldn't be a volunteer field marshall's job to approach a parent and create a confrontational situation. Don't we take our volunteers for granted enough as it is?

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

by Till-I-Collapse 16/10/12, 08:55 am

Sure would be nice to see more coaches keep their parents under control too. The fact that a coach would allow or even go along with the idiot parent(s) is a disgrace!

by ballhead 16/10/12, 09:06 am

my2cents wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
my2cents wrote:
RightWingDad wrote:As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

The external laws and enforcers may not instruct them into doing the right thing but they will punish them for not heeding that instruction to the detriment of those around them.

In the context of this thread the refs, field marshalls and admins need to be more agressive in tossing the bad apples off the sidelines. The values being displayed on the field start with the ones that are supposed to be setting the examples off the field.

Example; one month ago at boys CL at Richland from the next field over I heard very loud and clear "Hey ref , get your head out of your ass". That indiviual should have been banned for the season. No if, and , or buts. Your gone. Don't come back or you will be arrested. What happened? Nothing at all. Sad.
Shouldn't that list include the word "parents"? Why does this role fall to the referees and administrators?

Gees... In the example you gave the parent needs to learn how to control himself. It shouldn't be a volunteer field marshall's job to approach a parent and create a confrontational situation. Don't we take our volunteers for granted enough as it is?

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

by Guest 16/10/12, 09:10 am

ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
my2cents wrote:
RightWingDad wrote:As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

The external laws and enforcers may not instruct them into doing the right thing but they will punish them for not heeding that instruction to the detriment of those around them.

In the context of this thread the refs, field marshalls and admins need to be more agressive in tossing the bad apples off the sidelines. The values being displayed on the field start with the ones that are supposed to be setting the examples off the field.

Example; one month ago at boys CL at Richland from the next field over I heard very loud and clear "Hey ref , get your head out of your ass". That indiviual should have been banned for the season. No if, and , or buts. Your gone. Don't come back or you will be arrested. What happened? Nothing at all. Sad.
Shouldn't that list include the word "parents"? Why does this role fall to the referees and administrators?

Gees... In the example you gave the parent needs to learn how to control himself. It shouldn't be a volunteer field marshall's job to approach a parent and create a confrontational situation. Don't we take our volunteers for granted enough as it is?

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

by ballhead 16/10/12, 09:25 am

silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
my2cents wrote:
RightWingDad wrote:As someone once said long ago, "it is impossible to govern a free society without God and the Bible". While that may seem somewhat out of context here I believe that unless an internal law instructs an individual to do the right thing, no external law or law enforcer ever will.

The external laws and enforcers may not instruct them into doing the right thing but they will punish them for not heeding that instruction to the detriment of those around them.

In the context of this thread the refs, field marshalls and admins need to be more agressive in tossing the bad apples off the sidelines. The values being displayed on the field start with the ones that are supposed to be setting the examples off the field.

Example; one month ago at boys CL at Richland from the next field over I heard very loud and clear "Hey ref , get your head out of your ass". That indiviual should have been banned for the season. No if, and , or buts. Your gone. Don't come back or you will be arrested. What happened? Nothing at all. Sad.
Shouldn't that list include the word "parents"? Why does this role fall to the referees and administrators?

Gees... In the example you gave the parent needs to learn how to control himself. It shouldn't be a volunteer field marshall's job to approach a parent and create a confrontational situation. Don't we take our volunteers for granted enough as it is?

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

A field marshal cannot do anything besides call someone else to come down and deal with the problem, in other words, escalate it. I agree that a field marshal being present is very helpful, but they have no power to kick anyone out, and in fact, are instructed to do nothing other than call a LHGCL rep to the field.

Depending on what's going on in the rest of the complex at the time, it may take a few minutes for someone to get there, allowing the situation to continue to boil. If the other parents are too busy watching the game to attempt to calm a volatile situation, then they really can't complain much if the issue escalates to an abandonment with the new penalties that were spelled out.

by Guest 16/10/12, 09:36 am

ballhead wrote:
silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
my2cents wrote:

The external laws and enforcers may not instruct them into doing the right thing but they will punish them for not heeding that instruction to the detriment of those around them.

In the context of this thread the refs, field marshalls and admins need to be more agressive in tossing the bad apples off the sidelines. The values being displayed on the field start with the ones that are supposed to be setting the examples off the field.

Example; one month ago at boys CL at Richland from the next field over I heard very loud and clear "Hey ref , get your head out of your ass". That indiviual should have been banned for the season. No if, and , or buts. Your gone. Don't come back or you will be arrested. What happened? Nothing at all. Sad.
Shouldn't that list include the word "parents"? Why does this role fall to the referees and administrators?

Gees... In the example you gave the parent needs to learn how to control himself. It shouldn't be a volunteer field marshall's job to approach a parent and create a confrontational situation. Don't we take our volunteers for granted enough as it is?

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

A field marshal cannot do anything besides call someone else to come down and deal with the problem, in other words, escalate it. I agree that a field marshal being present is very helpful, but they have no power to kick anyone out, and in fact, are instructed to do nothing other than call a LHGCL rep to the field.

Depending on what's going on in the rest of the complex at the time, it may take a few minutes for someone to get there, allowing the situation to continue to boil. If the other parents are too busy watching the game to attempt to calm a volatile situation, then they really can't complain much if the issue escalates to an abandonment with the new penalties that were spelled out.

Not true, they can call and get someone kicked out. They have a Wilkie talkie in their hand and ultimately a cop can come , a parent just has their **** in their hand and that's it. Sorry not going to try to calm down some idiot w anger issues, not my job....

by jen_nah 16/10/12, 09:46 am

bigtex75081 wrote:
twotone wrote:i'm curious about the path of this thread. everyone keeps saying that the officials must control the players/parents/coaches, etc.
I like this observation. The first reaction from us was to point at the referees and accuse them of not doing enough. The irony though is this string was started in order to discuss the INCREASED number of cards that referees have been compelled to hand out this season.

Come on people, do we have to blame the referees for EVERYTHING are kids are doing wrong???

"Ugh... My DD just got a speeding ticket going 55 mph through a school zone. That's just Suzy being Suzy. What kills me though... there was a referee in the car in the lane next to her and that ref never rolled his window down to tell her to go slow. Gawd these referees are terrible!"

I am not blaming the refs for the child's actions. Let's use your analog but put it to soccer. The ref is the police officer as he is there to up hold the laws of the game. While he can't stop the child from doing that action but by giving a card it sure will set a precedence that your actions have a consequence.

These kids didn't just teach themselves along the way to play dirty soccer. It was taught to them by someone (parent or coach) along the way. The refs do have some ownership as they are the once out of the field control the pace of the game. If they use their cards and tell the player why they are being carded then that will set a precedence to that player & the teams that those type of actions won't be tolerated. If all the refs do this then the coaches will have to teach their players how to play the game properly.

by Guest 16/10/12, 09:55 am

jen_nah wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
twotone wrote:i'm curious about the path of this thread. everyone keeps saying that the officials must control the players/parents/coaches, etc.
I like this observation. The first reaction from us was to point at the referees and accuse them of not doing enough. The irony though is this string was started in order to discuss the INCREASED number of cards that referees have been compelled to hand out this season.

Come on people, do we have to blame the referees for EVERYTHING are kids are doing wrong???

"Ugh... My DD just got a speeding ticket going 55 mph through a school zone. That's just Suzy being Suzy. What kills me though... there was a referee in the car in the lane next to her and that ref never rolled his window down to tell her to go slow. Gawd these referees are terrible!"

I am not blaming the refs for the child's actions. Let's use your analog but put it to soccer. The ref is the police officer as he is there to up hold the laws of the game. While he can't stop the child from doing that action but by giving a card it sure will set a precedence that your actions have a consequence.

These kids didn't just teach themselves along the way to play dirty soccer. It was taught to them by someone (parent or coach) along the way. The refs do have some ownership as they are the once out of the field control the pace of the game. If they use their cards and tell the player why they are being carded then that will set a precedence to that player & the teams that those type of actions won't be tolerated. If all the refs do this then the coaches will have to teach their players how to play the game properly.

by bigtex75081 16/10/12, 10:14 am

silentparent wrote:
jen_nah wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
twotone wrote:i'm curious about the path of this thread. everyone keeps saying that the officials must control the players/parents/coaches, etc.
I like this observation. The first reaction from us was to point at the referees and accuse them of not doing enough. The irony though is this string was started in order to discuss the INCREASED number of cards that referees have been compelled to hand out this season.

Come on people, do we have to blame the referees for EVERYTHING are kids are doing wrong???

"Ugh... My DD just got a speeding ticket going 55 mph through a school zone. That's just Suzy being Suzy. What kills me though... there was a referee in the car in the lane next to her and that ref never rolled his window down to tell her to go slow. Gawd these referees are terrible!"

I am not blaming the refs for the child's actions. Let's use your analog but put it to soccer. The ref is the police officer as he is there to up hold the laws of the game. While he can't stop the child from doing that action but by giving a card it sure will set a precedence that your actions have a consequence.

These kids didn't just teach themselves along the way to play dirty soccer. It was taught to them by someone (parent or coach) along the way. The refs do have some ownership as they are the once out of the field control the pace of the game. If they use their cards and tell the player why they are being carded then that will set a precedence to that player & the teams that those type of actions won't be tolerated. If all the refs do this then the coaches will have to teach their players how to play the game properly.

Wait... This string is supposed to be about the referees giving away TOO MANY cards already. So the refs are doing exactly what you want. They're giving the "speeding tickets" already. But somehow this is still the refs' fault. scratch

by Guest 16/10/12, 11:09 am

JeffM wrote:I muddled the original post a bit. The point was we've had 3 abandonded games, one we know was an '01, not sure about the other two. On the heels of the abandoned games the U-17 coaches and managers get an e-mail about excessive cards, including mention of parent's behavior influencing play.

My question is as a group - players(of all ages), parents, coaches, are we getting worse, or is the league tired of the same old same old, and cracking down, or a little of both.

I don't think that the players, parents or coaches are behaving worse. I also don't think that the referees are getting better or worse. It all looks the same to me as it has for the last 3 years. Parent behavior has been poor and continues to be poor. Refereeing has been poor and continues to be poor. Players play like they play because they have been taught to play that way. The bad news is, they are being taught incorrectly. The rough play I see every weekend is not allowed at higher levels of soccer. If your player's only strength is the ability to hammer someone, your player is on the road to a dead end. Are the referees issuing more cards? I don't see it. I have two daughters, I've been to 13 league games this fall, I've seen one yellow card. On the other hand, I did see a full speed, double forearm, haymaker, to the side of the head, while avoiding any play for the ball. A free kick was awarded. Status quo. I'm still waiting to see a red card. I've never seen one. I think it's a rumor. I don't think they exist.

by my2cents 16/10/12, 11:34 am

ballhead wrote:
silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
my2cents wrote:

The external laws and enforcers may not instruct them into doing the right thing but they will punish them for not heeding that instruction to the detriment of those around them.

In the context of this thread the refs, field marshalls and admins need to be more agressive in tossing the bad apples off the sidelines. The values being displayed on the field start with the ones that are supposed to be setting the examples off the field.

Example; one month ago at boys CL at Richland from the next field over I heard very loud and clear "Hey ref , get your head out of your ass". That indiviual should have been banned for the season. No if, and , or buts. Your gone. Don't come back or you will be arrested. What happened? Nothing at all. Sad.
Shouldn't that list include the word "parents"? Why does this role fall to the referees and administrators?

Gees... In the example you gave the parent needs to learn how to control himself. It shouldn't be a volunteer field marshall's job to approach a parent and create a confrontational situation. Don't we take our volunteers for granted enough as it is?

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

A field marshal cannot do anything besides call someone else to come down and deal with the problem, in other words, escalate it. I agree that a field marshal being present is very helpful, but they have no power to kick anyone out, and in fact, are instructed to do nothing other than call a LHGCL rep to the field.

Depending on what's going on in the rest of the complex at the time, it may take a few minutes for someone to get there, allowing the situation to continue to boil. If the other parents are too busy watching the game to attempt to calm a volatile situation, then they really can't complain much if the issue escalates to an abandonment with the new penalties that were spelled out.

NO, at that point with someone who is experienced at handling these things, it is over. The offender is calmly told that they are in violation of the league and NTSSA code of conduct and that he/she must stop. If the action is bad enough, or the objection to the instructions bad enough then the person is told they must leave. If they protest then calmly inform them that they have two choices. "One is by the time I get my cell phone out you can be walking toward the exit or collecting your gear in preparation for leaving the facility. Two is I call local law enforcment and in front of your friends and children you will be arrested, hand-cuffed and removed from the facility. Your choice, what is it going to be?"

In over 1000 hours of field marshalling as an admin for a rec association I have ejected more than I can remember. I was never touched at all and only had to make the call once. The key is to not take their trash talking and inane protestations personally, be calm, professional and firm.

by soccerman771 16/10/12, 11:37 am

bigtex75081 wrote:
silentparent wrote:
jen_nah wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
twotone wrote:i'm curious about the path of this thread. everyone keeps saying that the officials must control the players/parents/coaches, etc.
I like this observation. The first reaction from us was to point at the referees and accuse them of not doing enough. The irony though is this string was started in order to discuss the INCREASED number of cards that referees have been compelled to hand out this season.

Come on people, do we have to blame the referees for EVERYTHING are kids are doing wrong???

"Ugh... My DD just got a speeding ticket going 55 mph through a school zone. That's just Suzy being Suzy. What kills me though... there was a referee in the car in the lane next to her and that ref never rolled his window down to tell her to go slow. Gawd these referees are terrible!"

I am not blaming the refs for the child's actions. Let's use your analog but put it to soccer. The ref is the police officer as he is there to up hold the laws of the game. While he can't stop the child from doing that action but by giving a card it sure will set a precedence that your actions have a consequence.

These kids didn't just teach themselves along the way to play dirty soccer. It was taught to them by someone (parent or coach) along the way. The refs do have some ownership as they are the once out of the field control the pace of the game. If they use their cards and tell the player why they are being carded then that will set a precedence to that player & the teams that those type of actions won't be tolerated. If all the refs do this then the coaches will have to teach their players how to play the game properly.

Wait... This string is supposed to be about the referees giving away TOO MANY cards already. So the refs are doing exactly what you want. They're giving the "speeding tickets" already. But somehow this is still the refs' fault.

The difference in the 'speeding ticket analogy' is that the cop needs to cover the road 24/7 because that's what you have at a soccer match with a referee. 24/7 coverage of the pitch. As to the too many / too few cards it's not about that or shouldn't be, but are the cards awarded correctly? In my experience as a referee, the louder the coach the louder the parents and players, they feed off the coach.

As to Gumby - if girls are taking other girls out and you've only seen 1 YC, then you haven't seen near enough. Oh, and red's do exist.

by bigtex75081 16/10/12, 11:46 am

my2cents wrote:
ballhead wrote:
silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
Shouldn't that list include the word "parents"? Why does this role fall to the referees and administrators?

Gees... In the example you gave the parent needs to learn how to control himself. It shouldn't be a volunteer field marshall's job to approach a parent and create a confrontational situation. Don't we take our volunteers for granted enough as it is?

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

A field marshal cannot do anything besides call someone else to come down and deal with the problem, in other words, escalate it. I agree that a field marshal being present is very helpful, but they have no power to kick anyone out, and in fact, are instructed to do nothing other than call a LHGCL rep to the field.

Depending on what's going on in the rest of the complex at the time, it may take a few minutes for someone to get there, allowing the situation to continue to boil. If the other parents are too busy watching the game to attempt to calm a volatile situation, then they really can't complain much if the issue escalates to an abandonment with the new penalties that were spelled out.

NO, at that point with someone who is experienced at handling these things, it is over. The offender is calmly told that they are in violation of the league and NTSSA code of conduct and that he/she must stop. If the action is bad enough, or the objection to the instructions bad enough then the person is told they must leave. If they protest then calmly inform them that they have two choices. "One is by the time I get my cell phone out you can be walking toward the exit or collecting your gear in preparation for leaving the facility. Two is I call local law enforcment and in front of your friends and children you will be arrested, hand-cuffed and removed from the facility. Your choice, what is it going to be?"

In over 1000 hours of field marshalling as an admin for a rec association I have ejected more than I can remember. I was never touched at all and only had to make the call once. The key is to not take their trash talking and inane protestations personally, be calm, professional and firm.

Staying calm in the presence of rage is a very difficult thing to do. That's too difficult for an average volunteer. These types of expectations are why it's so hard for volunteer organizations to retain those few people that are willing to sacrifice their personal time to help out.

by ballhead 16/10/12, 11:47 am

my2cents wrote:
ballhead wrote:
silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
Shouldn't that list include the word "parents"? Why does this role fall to the referees and administrators?

Gees... In the example you gave the parent needs to learn how to control himself. It shouldn't be a volunteer field marshall's job to approach a parent and create a confrontational situation. Don't we take our volunteers for granted enough as it is?

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

A field marshal cannot do anything besides call someone else to come down and deal with the problem, in other words, escalate it. I agree that a field marshal being present is very helpful, but they have no power to kick anyone out, and in fact, are instructed to do nothing other than call a LHGCL rep to the field.

Depending on what's going on in the rest of the complex at the time, it may take a few minutes for someone to get there, allowing the situation to continue to boil. If the other parents are too busy watching the game to attempt to calm a volatile situation, then they really can't complain much if the issue escalates to an abandonment with the new penalties that were spelled out.

NO, at that point with someone who is experienced at handling these things, it is over. The offender is calmly told that they are in violation of the league and NTSSA code of conduct and that he/she must stop. If the action is bad enough, or the objection to the instructions bad enough then the person is told they must leave. If they protest then calmly inform them that they have two choices. "One is by the time I get my cell phone out you can be walking toward the exit or collecting your gear in preparation for leaving the facility. Two is I call local law enforcment and in front of your friends and children you will be arrested, hand-cuffed and removed from the facility. Your choice, what is it going to be?"

In over 1000 hours of field marshalling as an admin for a rec association I have ejected more than I can remember. I was never touched at all and only had to make the call once. The key is to not take their trash talking and inane protestations personally, be calm, professional and firm.

In LHGCL, a field marshal CANNOT eject anyone, period. Their job is to notify the LHGCL rep on duty. I have been a field marshal many times, and have heard the speech many times, so no matter how much you protest about how things are done at your rec association, its not how its done with LHGCL. Field marshal's are not "experienced at handling these things", they are a parent or volunteer from the home team.

From their website: "During game, call in injuries, or ask for assistance if needed during your game. Do not get involved with angry parents, coaches or referees. If a situation arises, call in for a commissioner to come to the field."

Now you can argue that its a bad process, and you may be right, but that's the process they use.

by twotone 16/10/12, 11:55 am

bwgophers wrote:
twotone wrote:i'm curious about the path of this thread. everyone keeps saying that the officials must control the players/parents/coaches, etc. Now, i understand the referee is there to make sure the game is played within the rules, but whatever happened to the players issuing some SELF-CONTROL in the beginning. after all, the referee can only do something after the players break the laws and then deal out the proper consequences. the players are choosing to break the law first. is there nothing to be said about players deciding to play within the rules and get thru the game without killing each other.

disclaimers:
-yes i understand some fouls are accidental
-yes i understand a tightly called game at the start will end differently than a loosely called game
-yes i know coaches/parents encourage rough or dirty play
-yes i understand U17 players don't always have good decision-making skills, but they are old enough to make decisions for themselves.

it just seems to me that some of this goes back to the players themselves deciding that they want to respect each other and the game by making the decision to play soccer, not whatever it's devolved into now.

If the point of playing the game is to win the game, and making a decision to violate the LOTG gives a player advantage to achieve their desired outcome (i.e. to win the game), and the player determines that there are no negative consequences for making that decision, then why would expect them to stop making that decision simply out of "respect for the game"?

If people never see a cop on a particular stretch of highway, a large majority will drive over the speed limit. However, if people know that cops regularly patrol a stretch of highway and frequently hand out speeding tickets that result in large fines and increases to their insurance payments, they will be much less likely to speed (and it won't be out of "respect" to their fellow drivers).

i thought the point of playing the game was "development" of the player and getting them ready for college. it's been argued on these boards all the time. So is it winning or development? either way, i would think that a player should be able to make a decision to not injure an opponent. That has nothing to do with soccer, that's just plain human. negative consequences being a yellow card or the knowledge that you, as a player, just broke another players ankle. maybe i'm an idealist....

by my2cents 16/10/12, 12:44 pm

ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
ballhead wrote:
silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

A field marshal cannot do anything besides call someone else to come down and deal with the problem, in other words, escalate it. I agree that a field marshal being present is very helpful, but they have no power to kick anyone out, and in fact, are instructed to do nothing other than call a LHGCL rep to the field.

Depending on what's going on in the rest of the complex at the time, it may take a few minutes for someone to get there, allowing the situation to continue to boil. If the other parents are too busy watching the game to attempt to calm a volatile situation, then they really can't complain much if the issue escalates to an abandonment with the new penalties that were spelled out.

NO, at that point with someone who is experienced at handling these things, it is over. The offender is calmly told that they are in violation of the league and NTSSA code of conduct and that he/she must stop. If the action is bad enough, or the objection to the instructions bad enough then the person is told they must leave. If they protest then calmly inform them that they have two choices. "One is by the time I get my cell phone out you can be walking toward the exit or collecting your gear in preparation for leaving the facility. Two is I call local law enforcment and in front of your friends and children you will be arrested, hand-cuffed and removed from the facility. Your choice, what is it going to be?"

In over 1000 hours of field marshalling as an admin for a rec association I have ejected more than I can remember. I was never touched at all and only had to make the call once. The key is to not take their trash talking and inane protestations personally, be calm, professional and firm.

In LHGCL, a field marshal CANNOT eject anyone, period. Their job is to notify the LHGCL rep on duty. I have been a field marshal many times, and have heard the speech many times, so no matter how much you protest about how things are done at your rec association, its not how its done with LHGCL. Field marshal's are not "experienced at handling these things", they are a parent or volunteer from the home team.

From their website: "During game, call in injuries, or ask for assistance if needed during your game. Do not get involved with angry parents, coaches or referees. If a situation arises, call in for a commissioner to come to the field."

Now you can argue that its a bad process, and you may be right, but that's the process they use.

Read the post. Did not advocate the volunteers doing it. The admins (commissioners) need to enforce the code of conduct firmly. They are there as field marshalls as well. I was admin for 12 years, never asked a volunteer field marshall, coach or a parent to handle an out of control spectator. Same system, smaller scale, crap not tolerated.

by ballhead 16/10/12, 01:08 pm

my2cents wrote:
ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
ballhead wrote:
silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

A field marshal cannot do anything besides call someone else to come down and deal with the problem, in other words, escalate it. I agree that a field marshal being present is very helpful, but they have no power to kick anyone out, and in fact, are instructed to do nothing other than call a LHGCL rep to the field.

Depending on what's going on in the rest of the complex at the time, it may take a few minutes for someone to get there, allowing the situation to continue to boil. If the other parents are too busy watching the game to attempt to calm a volatile situation, then they really can't complain much if the issue escalates to an abandonment with the new penalties that were spelled out.

NO, at that point with someone who is experienced at handling these things, it is over. The offender is calmly told that they are in violation of the league and NTSSA code of conduct and that he/she must stop. If the action is bad enough, or the objection to the instructions bad enough then the person is told they must leave. If they protest then calmly inform them that they have two choices. "One is by the time I get my cell phone out you can be walking toward the exit or collecting your gear in preparation for leaving the facility. Two is I call local law enforcment and in front of your friends and children you will be arrested, hand-cuffed and removed from the facility. Your choice, what is it going to be?"

In over 1000 hours of field marshalling as an admin for a rec association I have ejected more than I can remember. I was never touched at all and only had to make the call once. The key is to not take their trash talking and inane protestations personally, be calm, professional and firm.

In LHGCL, a field marshal CANNOT eject anyone, period. Their job is to notify the LHGCL rep on duty. I have been a field marshal many times, and have heard the speech many times, so no matter how much you protest about how things are done at your rec association, its not how its done with LHGCL. Field marshal's are not "experienced at handling these things", they are a parent or volunteer from the home team.

From their website: "During game, call in injuries, or ask for assistance if needed during your game. Do not get involved with angry parents, coaches or referees. If a situation arises, call in for a commissioner to come to the field."

Now you can argue that its a bad process, and you may be right, but that's the process they use.
Read the post. Did not advocate the volunteers doing it. The admins (commissioners) need to enforce the code of conduct firmly. They are there as field marshalls as well. I was admin for 12 years, never asked a volunteer field marshall, coach or a parent to handle an out of control spectator. Same system, smaller scale, crap not tolerated.

I did read the post. The commissioner is not a field marshal, at least not in the LHGCL world. Your rec association may have defined it differently, but having been around LHGCL for over 8 years, and having volunteered as a field marshal many, many times, I'm comfortable with what the roles are.

If you meant to say that the commissioner can and should do it, that's fine, but its incorrect to say that a field marshal can or should eject someone.

by Lefty 16/10/12, 01:16 pm

silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:
silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:
Shouldn't that list include the word "parents"? Why does this role fall to the referees and administrators?

Gees... In the example you gave the parent needs to learn how to control himself. It shouldn't be a volunteer field marshall's job to approach a parent and create a confrontational situation. Don't we take our volunteers for granted enough as it is?

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

A field marshal cannot do anything besides call someone else to come down and deal with the problem, in other words, escalate it. I agree that a field marshal being present is very helpful, but they have no power to kick anyone out, and in fact, are instructed to do nothing other than call a LHGCL rep to the field.

Depending on what's going on in the rest of the complex at the time, it may take a few minutes for someone to get there, allowing the situation to continue to boil. If the other parents are too busy watching the game to attempt to calm a volatile situation, then they really can't complain much if the issue escalates to an abandonment with the new penalties that were spelled out.

Not true, they can call and get someone kicked out. They have a Wilkie talkie in their hand and ultimately a cop can come , a parent just has their **** in their hand and that's it. Sorry not going to try to calm down some idiot w anger issues, not my job....

With the recent changes, probably not going to happen as the LHGCL Field Marshal is a parent of one of the teams playing in the game.

by 10sDad 16/10/12, 01:39 pm

College Coaches come to watch teams that win. Or they watch championship games at tournaments.

If your kid is on a team that loses a game or two due to bad refereeing, they will not get looked at by college coaches unless you beg and hound specific coaches to come look specifically at your DD.

Just sayin'

Then y'all wonder why parents get upset over incorrect, game-affecting or result-altering calls by refs. At the college recruiting age, winning IS everything - development takes a back seat. Development without exposure equates to a really good intramural player in college - nothing more. And if you disagree, you are fooling yourself.

by 02Dad 16/10/12, 02:18 pm

Lefty wrote:
silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:
silentparent wrote:
ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:

The volunteer field marshalls should call out an admin , point out the offender and the admin should then toss him/her. You are right that they should not confront them as they may or may not have the experience or skills to do it without further excalating the situation. The same goes for parents trying to police the sidelines themselves. If it is a parent from your own team, fine, try to fix it. Most people don't care to "offend " someone on their own team by telling them they are out of line. If it is the other team trying to police them is what leads to fights and arguments

If the offender has such poor self control that they simply cannot help themselves, the best person to attempt to get them under control is another team parent, or better yet, their coach. They know the person, and they will share the pain if the situation spirals out of control.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10, when a parent finds they are alone in their "activity" and other parents on the team are telling them to cool it, they will typically get mad and either shut up, or walk off. I have never seen one continue to act up when being told to knock it off by their own team.

Field marshals and the league should not be the first line of control, but rather a fall back when self control fails.

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

A field marshal cannot do anything besides call someone else to come down and deal with the problem, in other words, escalate it. I agree that a field marshal being present is very helpful, but they have no power to kick anyone out, and in fact, are instructed to do nothing other than call a LHGCL rep to the field.

Depending on what's going on in the rest of the complex at the time, it may take a few minutes for someone to get there, allowing the situation to continue to boil. If the other parents are too busy watching the game to attempt to calm a volatile situation, then they really can't complain much if the issue escalates to an abandonment with the new penalties that were spelled out.

Not true, they can call and get someone kicked out. They have a Wilkie talkie in their hand and ultimately a cop can come , a parent just has their **** in their hand and that's it. Sorry not going to try to calm down some idiot w anger issues, not my job....

With the recent changes, probably not going to happen as the LHGCL Field Marshal is a parent of one of the teams playing in the game.

I had to yell at the field marshal (a parent on the opposing team) a couple weeks ago to stop bothering/harassing the ref crew.

Sad when we need field marshals for the field marshals.

by midfieldersdad 16/10/12, 02:18 pm

A friend of mine is a recruiter. His looks for teams that win in showcase tourneys, but he also looks at players that have sent him emails with interest in his particular school or program. GPA is a factor in the recruiting process, along with positions available on the recruiting squad. I think the reason parents get so upset may have more to do with the feeling of being so emotionally tied to the game, to which the parents lack influence and control enflames their tensions. Lets be honest, have you ever seen a ref change a call? I am guilty of it too, but there is entirely to much whining about bad calls.

by my2cents 16/10/12, 02:27 pm

10sDad wrote:College Coaches come to watch teams that win. Or they watch championship games at tournaments.

If your kid is on a team that loses a game or two due to bad refereeing, they will not get looked at by college coaches unless you beg and hound specific coaches to come look specifically at your DD.

Just sayin'

Then y'all wonder why parents get upset over incorrect, game-affecting or result-altering calls by refs. At the college recruiting age, winning IS everything - development takes a back seat. Development without exposure equates to a really good intramural player in college - nothing more. And if you disagree, you are fooling yourself.

If winning is everything for college scouts then how come many of the top showcase tournaments are three games, one a day, no semis or finals. College coaches care that a player can show well against good competition and with a decent team that allows them to show talent and tactical knowledge. Mid's recruiter friend says he cares who wins showcases but coaches have told my son otherwise. They say could not care less who wins or loses.

by my2cents 16/10/12, 02:32 pm

ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
ballhead wrote:
my2cents wrote:
ballhead wrote:
silentparent wrote:

I totally disagree. Field marshals are the first line. Because they can actually DO something, kick them out. Most parents including me, are there to watch their kids play, not police dopes who have no control over themselves. Make an example and the herd will follow. I have been a field marshal and it is amazing how polite the crowds are when you are there watching the game with them and they know it.....

A field marshal cannot do anything besides call someone else to come down and deal with the problem, in other words, escalate it. I agree that a field marshal being present is very helpful, but they have no power to kick anyone out, and in fact, are instructed to do nothing other than call a LHGCL rep to the field.

Depending on what's going on in the rest of the complex at the time, it may take a few minutes for someone to get there, allowing the situation to continue to boil. If the other parents are too busy watching the game to attempt to calm a volatile situation, then they really can't complain much if the issue escalates to an abandonment with the new penalties that were spelled out.

NO, at that point with someone who is experienced at handling these things, it is over. The offender is calmly told that they are in violation of the league and NTSSA code of conduct and that he/she must stop. If the action is bad enough, or the objection to the instructions bad enough then the person is told they must leave. If they protest then calmly inform them that they have two choices. "One is by the time I get my cell phone out you can be walking toward the exit or collecting your gear in preparation for leaving the facility. Two is I call local law enforcment and in front of your friends and children you will be arrested, hand-cuffed and removed from the facility. Your choice, what is it going to be?"

In over 1000 hours of field marshalling as an admin for a rec association I have ejected more than I can remember. I was never touched at all and only had to make the call once. The key is to not take their trash talking and inane protestations personally, be calm, professional and firm.

In LHGCL, a field marshal CANNOT eject anyone, period. Their job is to notify the LHGCL rep on duty. I have been a field marshal many times, and have heard the speech many times, so no matter how much you protest about how things are done at your rec association, its not how its done with LHGCL. Field marshal's are not "experienced at handling these things", they are a parent or volunteer from the home team.

From their website: "During game, call in injuries, or ask for assistance if needed during your game. Do not get involved with angry parents, coaches or referees. If a situation arises, call in for a commissioner to come to the field."

Now you can argue that its a bad process, and you may be right, but that's the process they use.
Read the post. Did not advocate the volunteers doing it. The admins (commissioners) need to enforce the code of conduct firmly. They are there as field marshalls as well. I was admin for 12 years, never asked a volunteer field marshall, coach or a parent to handle an out of control spectator. Same system, smaller scale, crap not tolerated.

I did read the post. The commissioner is not a field marshal, at least not in the LHGCL world. Your rec association may have defined it differently, but having been around LHGCL for over 8 years, and having volunteered as a field marshal many, many times, I'm comfortable with what the roles are.

If you meant to say that the commissioner can and should do it, that's fine, but its incorrect to say that a field marshal can or should eject someone.

A person who is at a game location for the purpose of overseeing the enforcing the rules of the league or complex is field marshalling. The commissioner is there to field marshall not to commission.

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